Cutting the cord... maybe?

Trekology

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Why cant internetbe like cell phones. If you want to use more data, pay more.
Everyone agrees on that system.

Do they? After Verizon and AT&T proclaiming that consumers didn't really want unmetered data plans and replacing them with bucketed plans + overage fees a couple years ago, they were both forced to bring back unmetered plans. It would seem that there is a preference for unmetered by enough consumers that the two largest players in the market were forced to offer them.

But home ISPs actually already have a "more data pay more" model of different bandwidth rates. Someone wants to use more data, they typically will subscribe to a higher rate (and higher price) plan.
 

RU4Real

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Do they? After Verizon and AT&T proclaiming that consumers didn't really want unmetered data plans and replacing them with bucketed plans + overage fees a couple years ago, they were both forced to bring back unmetered plans. It would seem that there is a preference for unmetered by enough consumers that the two largest players in the market were forced to offer them.

But home ISPs actually already have a "more data pay more" model of different bandwidth rates. Someone wants to use more data, they typically will subscribe to a higher rate (and higher price) plan.

In reality, though, those unmetered plans aren't unmetered. There's a very clear cap, after which they choke you down to 2G, which is worthless in the current application landscape.

What's even more interesting, and serves as a great predictor with regard to where the major carriers' heads are at, is the fact that many of these plans include exceptions for some content that is carrier-driven.
 

Trekology

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What's even more interesting, and serves as a great predictor with regard to where the major carriers' heads are at, is the fact that many of these plans include exceptions for some content that is carrier-driven.

Yes, especially since those "preferred" data sources are using the same bandwidth than the ones that aren't exempted. They're using it to push subscribers to the partners whose agreement is benefitting the ISP in some way.
 
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NickRU714

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Do they? After Verizon and AT&T proclaiming that consumers didn't really want unmetered data plans and replacing them with bucketed plans + overage fees a couple years ago, they were both forced to bring back unmetered plans. It would seem that there is a preference for unmetered by enough consumers that the two largest players in the market were forced to offer them.

But home ISPs actually already have a "more data pay more" model of different bandwidth rates. Someone wants to use more data, they typically will subscribe to a higher rate (and higher price) plan.

True. For a price you can get an unmetered plan. They not everyone is unmetered. They still offer capped plans.

There is difference between speed and volume though.
While I don't use alot of data, I don't want slow data.
 

RUAldo

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The concern is that without legal constraints, internet providers will throttle the available bandwidth of content providers with whom they in some way compete.

So the internet providers which are also cable companies will put the squeeze on things like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc. To "speed them up" for any individual customer would cost extra.

Ultimately, I think this winds up with Google buying Verizon and (perhaps) Amazon buying AT&T.
It’s amazing how misinformed people are about net neutrality. You do realize that after all the throttling hoopla with Netflix-VZ/AT&T back in 2016, Netflix admitted to throttling its own service. And, other than the Comcast throttling incident years ago, it hasn’t been an issue. In light of regulators’ net neutrality nonsense over the last few years, no ISP in their right mind is going to throttle without a legitimate purpose. And for those that fear fast lanes, look no further than Google as the biggest offender - Google has a search engine monopoly and is willing to sell key search terms to the highest bidder (i.e., creating a search/advertisement fast lane) - which makes it extremely difficult for the little guy to crack the first page of search results.
 

NickRU714

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Yes, especially since those "preferred" data sources are using the same bandwidth than the ones that aren't exempted. They're using it to push subscribers to the partners whose agreement is benefitting the ISP in some way.

Its thst exactly why people are saying to keep NN?
I think.

I really should actually read more about this.
 

nacorwin

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And why hadn't any of those things happened in the many years before 2015 when our last administration decided to regulate ISP's like public utilities? ... Many of the scare tactics the pro-regulation folks are using really just aren't true. Everything is "they could" or "What if they."

It’s amazing how misinformed people are about net neutrality. You do realize that after all the throttling hoopla with Netflix-VZ/AT&T back in 2016, Netflix admitted to throttling its own service. And, other than the Comcast throttling incident years ago, it hasn’t been an issue.

To respond to a few things here, first some of the bad things that might have happened did in fact happen. The "Comcast throttling incident" is an example. Comcast didn't actually throttle Netflix. They limited the access from Netflix into the Comcast controlled network. This caused a bottleneck that in essence slowed the speed of netflix data. Comcast demanded, and eventually received, extra payment from netflix to allow full access. Very soon after this incident, New Neutrality was made a rule.

The "throttling hoopla with Netflix-VZ/AT&T back in 2016" was only for moble streaming.

Lastly, a question for the people that are for some unknown reason arguing against net neutrality. A few in this thread have claimed that none of the bad things people are worried about would actually happen. For the sake of argument, lets say that is true. What is the harm in having the NN rule? It prevents things from happening that wouldn't happen anyway. It makes many people happier. What is the downside?
 

Big boy stan

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T What is the harm in having the NN rule? It prevents things from happening that wouldn't happen anyway. It makes many people happier. What is the downside?

I confess that I am on the fence on the subject but to play the other side to your question, I think the positive of no NN would be to allow the ISP to customize and maximize profits for their service. Competition among ISPs would then bring us better service for less money.

The concern is that many of us have little choice in ISPs today. I can select between two, Comcast or FIOS (albeit with some other more difficult services available like satellite). Lest say Comcast decides to make a deal with Netflix that pays them megabucks but Comcast agrees that they will not pass Amazon Prime Video and FIOS decides to do the opposite, I am stuck choosing between two products that are inferior to what I have today.

But... what if the result of these actions and increased profitability of Comcast and FIOS results in five new ISPs extending their network to my home. Competition would be increased and I would likely wind up with a service that is superior to what I have today perhaps at an even more competitive rate.

The biggest fly in this story is the contracts that local towns have made with individual ISPs to give exclusive rights to poles and infrastructure. If wired services continue for future years as the main technology, it will be difficult for a new ISP to offer me their service. There is however much happening in the way of wireless however (see Verizon's new 5G home service) that could replace wired services.

So... not sure there is downside to NN but there maybe a strong upside to non NN. Depends on your belief in technological development and free market competitiveness.
 

ashokan

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Yes... a poorly constructed piece from "Cordcutter News" is really going to give us all that clear, objective perspective we're looking for.

It doesn't take much effort to understand the simple fact that that cord-cutting existed well before 'Net Neutrality" took effect in June 2015. The idea everything is going to fall apart with repeal is silly. Its like CTE hysteria for the internet

Pai is correct in saying:

We have proof that markets work: For almost two decades, the U.S. had a free and open internet without these heavy-handed rules. There was no market failure before 2015. Americans weren’t living in a digital dystopia before the FCC seized power.
 

RU4Real

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It doesn't take much effort to understand the simple fact that that cord-cutting existed well before 'Net Neutrality" took effect in June 2015. The idea everything is going to fall apart with repeal is silly. Its like CTE hysteria for the internet

Pai is correct in saying:

We have proof that markets work: For almost two decades, the U.S. had a free and open internet without these heavy-handed rules. There was no market failure before 2015. Americans weren’t living in a digital dystopia before the FCC seized power.

Nobody said "everything is going to fall apart." That's your own weak attempt at diminishing the arguments of those who disagree with you. Your hyperbole isn't part of the debate, so grow up.

The concern is that there will be impact which is detrimental to the consumer. You can't rule that out.
 

THERAC

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"Cord Cutting Existed Before Net Neutrality; Cord Cutting Will Exist After Net Neutrality"

http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/cord...ality-cord-cutting-will-exist-net-neutrality/


Thanks but no good points here.

If net neutrality gets repealed and you have cut the cord all of the services you are using to cut the cord (Sling, Hulu, Netflix) can become more expensive. This defeats the purpose of cutting the cord.

Essentially Fios and Xfinity can go to Sling and say “give us 100 million dollars or we will slow your service down to dial up speed”. Sling will relent and pass that cost onto you. So you think your so cool telling all your friends that cutting the cord will save you 100 dollars a month. And then BAM! your sling package goes from 40 a month to 120 a month and your back to regular cable.
 
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ashokan

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Nobody said "everything is going to fall apart." That's your own weak attempt at diminishing the arguments of those who disagree with you. Your hyperbole isn't part of the debate, so grow up.

The concern is that there will be impact which is detrimental to the consumer. You can't rule that out.

Actually you can rule it out better than in. The fellow I was responding too said repeal would ruin cord-cutting. There's nothing to support that at all. Your snotty nonsense is also not part of any substantive debate if typical of the Oh noes repeal tards.
 

ashokan

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Thanks but no good points here.

If net neutrality gets repealed and you have cut the cord all of the services you are using to cut the cord (Sling, Hulu, Netflix) can become more expensive. This defeats the purpose of cutting the cord.

Essentially Fios and Xfinity can go to Sling and say “give us 100 million dollars or we will slow your service down to dial up speed”. Sling will relent and pass that cost onto you. So you think your so cool telling all your friends that cutting the cord will save you 100 dollars a month. And then BAM! your sling package goes from 40 a month to 120 a month and your back to regular cable.

Another turkey - there are no "points" but one - cord-cutting existed WAY BEFORE Net Neutrality and it will continue. Things aren't going to esplode. The dire predictions are based on about as much as melting ice flooding NYC.
 

Block R

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To answer your question, 25-25 would be plenty for streaming two TV. Also consider other WiFi devices too.

Yo can also buy a modem and use it rather than rent theirs. You’ll pay off a decent modem in 1-1.5 years and they typically last quite long. You just have to make sure that your modem is compatible before buying it.
This! Previously my Xfinity modem/router was bundled (undoubtedly because I was paying too much for the Triple Play service overall) and when I reduced my plan they wanted to charge me $10/mo. After validating compatibility, I bought a modem with much better specs than the crap Comcast had given me for under $100 to pair with the wifi router I already had but even if you need an all-in-one modem with wifi router you should be able to get a good one for under $150 that will last you at least 3 years.

Another suggestion I'd make is to connect whatever streaming devices you're using directly to the router using ethernet cables if possible. I did this with my Roku and Xbox which pretty much eliminated any buffering (and lag for video games) that I was experiencing with wifi. Although I did have to put a hole in the wall to run the ethernet cable, it was totally worth the effort.
 

Trekology

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Its thst exactly why people are saying to keep NN?
I think.

I really should actually read more about this.

Yes, and here's a real-world example.

AT&T exempts DIRECTV NOW, their over the top (OTT) video streaming service from mobile usage caps. Other OTT services, such as Netflix, Sony Vue, Hulu, etc. all count toward monthly data allowance, whether a defined bucket or the pseudo-unlimited plan.

The portion of AT&T's (or any ISP's) network that is the most expensive to maintain and augment capacity on is at and around the "last mile". In the case of AT&T wireless, this is the local towers. So watching streaming video from AT&T's own service (DIRECTV NOW) costs them the same as a 3rd party service.

Heck, DIRECTV NOW is hosted on Akamai's CDN. So even at the other end of AT&T's network, it costs the same as the 3rd part services.
 
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RUAldo

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It doesn't take much effort to understand the simple fact that that cord-cutting existed well before 'Net Neutrality" took effect in June 2015. The idea everything is going to fall apart with repeal is silly. Its like CTE hysteria for the internet

Pai is correct in saying:

We have proof that markets work: For almost two decades, the U.S. had a free and open internet without these heavy-handed rules. There was no market failure before 2015. Americans weren’t living in a digital dystopia before the FCC seized power.
Net neutrality is nonsensical fiction created by Silicon Valley to enable a few companies to amass billions in cash at the expense of ISPs/Telcos. Even if ISPs/Telcos do increase charges to companies like Google, nobody says Google has to pass those costs along to its customers. Perhaps Google’s margins take the hit and its cash pile only increases by $75B instead of $100B. In the meantime, the ISPs/Telcos employ millions of Americans and have piles of debt because of the massive capital investments required to keep the Internet afloat. All while Netflix, Google, etc. pay a fraction of what they should really be paying.
 
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rucoe89

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When is net neutrality supposed to be repealed?

Imminently.

This isn't lawmaking. This is rulemaking. The FCC Chairman, Ajit Pai, opposed net neutrality in 2015.

Basically, in 2015 the FCC classified internet services as a telecommunications service as opposed to an information service. In doing so, they made service providers subject to the same rules as apply to the phone system - part of which specify that no "favorable treatment" be granted to a particular type of network traffic at the expense of other traffic.

Fast forward to today, Pai wants to reclassify the internet as an information service and, as he says, "let the market sort out" things such as traffic prioritization.

Oh, it absolutely can happen. Facebook is loaded with petitions, but in the end they don't matter because this isn't the sort of thing anyone is voting on.
Pai was a lobbyist for the cable companies and will return to that industry when his time is done. He is going to make millions off of this.
 

rucoe89

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Yes... a poorly constructed piece from "Cordcutter News" is really going to give us all that clear, objective perspective we're looking for.

It doesn't take much effort to understand the simple fact that that cord-cutting existed well before 'Net Neutrality" took effect in June 2015. The idea everything is going to fall apart with repeal is silly. Its like CTE hysteria for the internet

Pai is correct in saying:

We have proof that markets work: For almost two decades, the U.S. had a free and open internet without these heavy-handed rules. There was no market failure before 2015. Americans weren’t living in a digital dystopia before the FCC seized power.
Difference is market was growing for providers until 2012. Once it stopped they moved towards programs of pay to play. Government stepped in saying internet was more like power or phone utility and thus regulation.
 

Trekology

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All while Netflix, Google, etc. pay a fraction of what they should really be paying.

That's not even remotely true. Netflix, Google, and others pay their ISPs. I pay my ISP. The two ISPs have agreements to exchange traffic (depending on the agreement, money may or may not change hands). No one is getting a free lunch. On the other hand, some ISPs want to get paid twice for delivering the same traffic.
 
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ashokan

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Nobody said "everything is going to fall apart." That's your own weak attempt at diminishing the arguments of those who disagree with you. Your hyperbole isn't part of the debate, so grow up.

The concern is that there will be impact which is detrimental to the consumer. You can't rule that out.


Sorry - people here have been making dire predictions - and for logic resorting to snotty nonsense and gratuitous belligerence over trifles (a character flaw actually).

I am not making an "argument" - I'm stating a fact. People are claiming a dire future for internet/web if NN goes down. Those claims are mere opinions. The actual fact is that for years there was no regulation and nothing dire happened. Good things happened. That's a fact even if you struggle with it (nothing new imo)
 

ashokan

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Difference is market was growing for providers until 2012. Once it stopped they moved towards programs of pay to play. Government stepped in saying internet was more like power or phone utility and thus regulation.


I know - people want to "regulate" the internet to "keep it free" - using 1930 laws. College people fall for this. On top most of the main NN drivers admit that a main push for NN was control of content.

A poster above linked a WaPo article highlighting a lawyer and NN founder named Tim Wu (he coined the term "Net Neutrality"). He said NN rules are about giving the FCC agency the ability to shape “media policy, social policy, oversight of the political process, [and] issues of free speech.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436807/net-neutrality-government-control

NN is not about "hands off" - its entirely about hands-on while pretending to be hands-off. NN is Obamacare for the internet "If you like your internet you can keep your internet".

An additional KrAzy about NN is that the FCC is not an entity to be setting regulations down outside of congress. Congress should be shaping then internet and not a political entity that can go back and forth every few years.
 

RUAldo

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That's not even remotely true. Netflix, Google, and others pay their ISPs. I pay my ISP. The two ISPs have agreements to exchange traffic (depending on the agreement, money may or may not change hands). No one is getting a free lunch. On the other hand, some ISPs want to get paid twice for delivering the same traffic.
Ever notice a tractor trailer pays by the axel on toll highways? Ever notice that a heavier envelope or box costs more at FedEx or UPS? I hate to break it to you but those companies that clog up the Internet pipes pay a fraction of what they should be paying. Ever compare the capital expenditures of Silicon Valley companies to the ISPs/Telcos?
 

ashokan

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Pai was a lobbyist for the cable companies and will return to that industry when his time is done. He is going to make millions off of this.

He deserves the money for the abuse has taken from kooks. He has the SJWs, Antifas, Anarchists, Marxists, ACLU etc outside his house. Protestors have posters with his kids names on them. He also gets death threats. Its clear what side of the issue the kooks are on and that a big clue right there.

"SYRACUSE, N.Y. (WSYR-TV) - A Syracuse man has been arrested for allegedly leaving a threatening voicemail with Central New York Representative, Congressman John Katko.


 

ashokan

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Ever notice a tractor trailer pays by the axel on toll highways? Ever notice that a heavier envelope or box costs more at FedEx or UPS? I hate to break it to you but those companies that clog up the Internet pipes pay a fraction of what they should be paying. Ever compare the capital expenditures of Silicon Valley companies to the ISPs/Telcos?

WSJ actually used Federal Express and Amazon shipping as an example of NN - and it was wrong - as much Of NN stuff in news is

"In an explainer video posted earlier this year by the Wall Street Journal, net neutrality is analogized to package delivery. The overnight shipper, FedEx, delivers boxes to Amazon's customers, treating them all the same. This, says the video, is exactly what net neutrality rules applied to ISPs do.

Wrong. FedEx is unregulated. The firm chooses to offer terms and conditions that apply generically. Its rival, UPS, not so much: "UPS is not a common carrier," says the company's website, "and reserves the right in its absolute discretion to refuse carriage to any shipment tendered to it for transportation."

The firms are free to blaze different trails, with markets deciding the outcome."


The net neutrality farce: From the start, the concept has been based on a flawed foundation
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/net-neutrality-farce-article-1.3649219
 

RUAldo

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The same people that believe the end of NN means the end of the Internet are the same people that watch re-runs of Ancient Aliens. I applaud Silicon Valley for a well-designed sham called Net Neutrality. Without the ISPs/Telcos, Silicon Valley would be nothing. Do you think it’s a coincidence that the Tech Sector, with Google as one of the main culprits, is sitting on $633 Billion of cash overseas? Add that with what they are sitting on in the US and we are probably talking over a trillion in cash in total. In the meantime, AT&T and Verizon are loaded with debt despite the fact that people seem to think they are double charging for delivering traffic. Ridiculous...
 

RUAldo

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WSJ actually used Federal Express and Amazon shipping as an example of NN - and it was wrong - as much Of NN stuff in news is

"In an explainer video posted earlier this year by the Wall Street Journal, net neutrality is analogized to package delivery. The overnight shipper, FedEx, delivers boxes to Amazon's customers, treating them all the same. This, says the video, is exactly what net neutrality rules applied to ISPs do.

Wrong. FedEx is unregulated. The firm chooses to offer terms and conditions that apply generically. Its rival, UPS, not so much: "UPS is not a common carrier," says the company's website, "and reserves the right in its absolute discretion to refuse carriage to any shipment tendered to it for transportation."

The firms are free to blaze different trails, with markets deciding the outcome."


The net neutrality farce: From the start, the concept has been based on a flawed foundation
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/net-neutrality-farce-article-1.3649219
I think we agree with each other - no?
 

Trekology

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Ever notice a tractor trailer pays by the axel on toll highways? Ever notice that a heavier envelope or box costs more at FedEx or UPS? I hate to break it to you but those companies that clog up the Internet pipes pay a fraction of what they should be paying. Ever compare the capital expenditures of Silicon Valley companies to the ISPs/Telcos?

So I actually do know how much those services pay for their Internet access and it is certainly their fair share. I've worked for companies on both sides and I know that the telecom companies aren't underselling to large Internet companies. In fact, the large ones area already doing direct connects to consumer ISPs. The players most at risk aren't the large, established ones but the smaller upstarts that aren't able to do direct connects are instead have to rely on exchange peering.

Also, the amount an internet service pays their ISP is OpEx, not CapEx.
 

RUAldo

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So I actually do know how much those services pay for their Internet access and it is certainly their fair share. I've worked for companies on both sides and I know that the telecom companies aren't underselling to large Internet companies. In fact, the large ones area already doing direct connects to consumer ISPs. The players most at risk aren't the large, established ones but the smaller upstarts that aren't able to do direct connects are instead have to rely on exchange peering.

Also, the amount an internet service pays their ISP is OpEx, not CapEx.
If you think the peering and traffic exchange agreements between the ISPs and the likes of Netflix are a boon for those ISPs, you are sorely mistaken. But setting aside who pays for what, let’s get back to NN. In this day and age, Google is no different than a last mile ISP and is an internet monopoly. Probably worse than any ISP given the few search engines/portals people actually use. Only when Google creates internet fast-lanes by selling key words to the highest bidder so the larger and better funded companies can appear at the top of searches and sell more products, Google makes billions of dollars. Yet, if an ISP were to create a fast lane to allow a company to pay for content delivered faster to a customer, it would be a NN travesty of the highest order. It’s very simple - NN was created to protect Silicon Valley and ensure that the US remains a global technology powerhouse. Unfortunately for the Telcos/ISPs they were the sacrificial lambs.
 

scarletrat

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we cut the cord 3 months ago and it's been better than I thought. use Roku, and went with DirecTV Now and Sling (wife international channels). Allows me to get Watch ESPN and other channel aps for on-demand content. no need for dvr. upped my xfinity (live in CA) internet plan (also because we use Nest for a lot in house, Rachio for sprinklers, etc) and got a much better (Orbi) router, and bought a cable modem to save the $10 rental fee. my TV bill has gone from 170/month to 65/month, get all sports I want, including BTN, which is on the 2nd to last ($50/month) tier for DirecTV (also get BTN2Go through subscription to DirecTVNow). kids watch mostly online content, and I like I can easily watch on my phone when out. only small issue is I am regulated to get NFL redzone only on my phone, thru verizon, but not too bad because we are rarely home on sundays so chances are small I'd be able to watch much of it at home...
 

i'vegotwinners

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But... what if the result of these actions and increased profitability of Comcast and FIOS results in five new ISPs extending their network to my home. Competition would be increased and I would likely wind up with a service that is superior to what I have today perhaps at an even more competitive rate.

The biggest fly in this story is the contracts that local towns have made with individual ISPs to give exclusive rights to poles and infrastructure. If wired services continue for future years as the main technology, it will be difficult for a new ISP to offer me their service. There is however much happening in the way of wireless however (see Verizon's new 5G home service) that could replace wired services.

cable tv has been around for over 60 yrs. (we had it in the mid 1960s at the house i grew up in).

in the history of cable, no big cable company has ever, i repeat EVER, AS IN NEVER EVER EVEN ONCE, ANYWHERE, gone in competition with another big cable company in an area already served by a cable provider.

you've probably had internet available at your house for over 20 yrs. how many other internet companies have come in and gone into competition in that 20 plus yrs?

the only reason you have 2 options now, is because cable tv and the phone company already had lines strung all over the city.

the only reason you have 2 options now with lines all over the city, is because the phone company wasn't allowed to do cable when cable first came out.

that's because the phone company could have forced all their phone subscribers to subsidize their cable subscribers. (no cell phones back then. you had to have phone. you didn't have to have cable).

had the phone company been able to do cable in the beginning, you would only have 1 wired internet option today, (and only 1 cable option), as there would be no separate cable company.

as for the telephone poles. lines have to be so many feet apart, so there isn't room on the pole for lots more lines, so it would be logistically impossible to have 5 more companies wire the city without replacing virtually every telephone pole.

that said, much of the cost of delivering wired internet is the infrastructure itself, and even if it were logistically possible to string many more lines on the poles, it still would be financially not feasible, as for every additional line, you would have less and less customers financing every incremental new line.

it's why you don't have many electric companies or water companies or gas companies building infrastructures all over the city, all going after the same finite number of homes and businesses.

more competition laying lines all over the city, even if logistically feasible, which it's not, would increase your cost for internet, not decrease it.

that said, what would work is having one company build and maintain the infrastructure, and require said infrastructure provider to allow any ISP to lease space on their lines.

that's how things should be set up. that's how you get competition without multiple infrastructure expenses, each with less and less subscribers supporting each incremental infrastructure, making competition both logistically and economically unfeasible.

5G isn't an alternative yet. nor is there any guarantee for that option anytime soon.

if and when 5G happens and it becomes a viable alternative, to have 5G competition you would either have to allow many competitors to use the same 5G network. or you would have to have many 5G networks built and maintained, each with less and less subscribers per network to support them.

point being. you'll never have fiscally or logistically feasible effective market competition, unless you divorce the infrastructure provider from the internet service provider, (ISP), and allow many ISPs to all lease space on and utilize the same infrastructure.

it's otherwise just not doable. logistically or fiscally.
 

i'vegotwinners

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WSJ actually used Federal Express and Amazon shipping as an example of NN - and it was wrong - as much Of NN stuff in news is

"In an explainer video posted earlier this year by the Wall Street Journal, net neutrality is analogized to package delivery. The overnight shipper, FedEx, delivers boxes to Amazon's customers, treating them all the same. This, says the video, is exactly what net neutrality rules applied to ISPs do.

Wrong. FedEx is unregulated. The firm chooses to offer terms and conditions that apply generically. Its rival, UPS, not so much: "UPS is not a common carrier," says the company's website, "and reserves the right in its absolute discretion to refuse carriage to any shipment tendered to it for transportation."

The firms are free to blaze different trails, with markets deciding the outcome."


The net neutrality farce: From the start, the concept has been based on a flawed foundation
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/net-neutrality-farce-article-1.3649219


wrong, wrong, and wrong.

didn't read the WSJ analogy, but here's the correct one.

if you pay UPS or Fed Ex for shipping of a purchase from Amazon or Ebay, then neither Fed Ex nor UPS is also charging Amazon or Ebay to ship that package. (because you've already pd Fed Ex or UPS the freight, and already paid for what speed of delivery you want).

when you subscribe to internet from Comcast or whomever, delivery and delivery speed is pricisely what you're subscribing to.

for Comcast to then turn around and charge Netflix or You Tube to also pay for said delivery and speed of delivery that you've already paid Comcast for, is double billing.

that said, UPS and Fed Ex both have to compete with the US post office, so the 2 can't collude and double charge, or charge you a non competitive sum.

in addition, there are already a zillion trucking companies, and anyone can go into the package delivery competition tomorrow if they wish.

for reasons i've already explained several times on this board, it's logistically and fiscally near impossible to enter the wired cable/internet market. (which is why no one ever does it, and why AT&T never competes where Verizon is, and why cable companies NEVER compete with each other in the same market.

the only reason you have 2 cable/internet options now, is because both cable and the phone company already had wires strung all over the city when the internet went public.
 
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RU4Real

Heisman
Jul 25, 2001
50,955
30,733
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wrong, wrong, and wrong.

didn't read the WSJ analogy, but here's the correct one.

if you pay UPS or Fed Ex for shipping of a purchase from Amazon or Ebay, then neither Fed Ex nor UPS is also charging Amazon or Ebay to ship that package. (because you've already pd Fed Ex or UPS the freight, and already paid for what speed of delivery you want).

when you subscribe to internet from Comcast or whomever, delivery and delivery speed is pricisely what you're subscribing to.

for Comcast to then turn around and charge Netflix or You Tube to also pay for said delivery and speed of delivery that you've already paid Comcast for, is double billing.

that said, UPS and Fed Ex both have to compete with the US post office, so the 2 can't collude and double charge, or charge you a non competitive sum.

in addition, there are already a zillion trucking companies, and anyone can go into the package delivery competition tomorrow if they wish.

for reasons i've already explained several times on this board, it's logistically and fiscally near impossible to enter the wired cable/internet market. (which is why no one ever does it, and why AT&T never competes where Verizon is, and why cable companies NEVER compete with each other in the same market.

the only reason you have 2 cable/internet options now, is because both cable and the phone company already had wires strung all over the city when the internet went public.

The eventuality that you're missing is Network as a Service, which is 100% coming down the line.

A good analog is electrical power. In the beginning, you had companies aligned by geo which were 100% vertical. Con Edison (for example) had generating stations to make electricity and owned transmission end to end, from the power plant to the meter on your house. And they had zero competition.

Fast forward to today and you have companies that own the power plants, companies that own the distribution and other companies that serve as the interface to the customer. In many areas you may find companies that own two of those pieces but it's rare, now, to find companies that own all three.

The same thing will happen with internet / telecom - or rather, just internet, since straight telecom as an independent sector will soon be dead. The Amazons of the world will sell content out of the data center and the network that content uses to get to your device will be owned by someone else.

The universe tends to unfold as it should.
 

rags

Junior
Aug 10, 2001
321
383
63
wrong, wrong, and wrong.

didn't read the WSJ analogy, but here's the correct one.

if you pay UPS or Fed Ex for shipping of a purchase from Amazon or Ebay, then neither Fed Ex nor UPS is also charging Amazon or Ebay to ship that package. (because you've already pd Fed Ex or UPS the freight, and already paid for what speed of delivery you want).

when you subscribe to internet from Comcast or whomever, delivery and delivery speed is pricisely what you're subscribing to.

for Comcast to then turn around and charge Netflix or You Tube to also pay for said delivery and speed of delivery that you've already paid Comcast for, is double billing.

that said, UPS and Fed Ex both have to compete with the US post office, so the 2 can't collude and double charge, or charge you a non competitive sum.

in addition, there are already a zillion trucking companies, and anyone can go into the package delivery competition tomorrow if they wish.

for reasons i've already explained several times on this board, it's logistically and fiscally near impossible to enter the wired cable/internet market. (which is why no one ever does it, and why AT&T never competes where Verizon is, and why cable companies NEVER compete with each other in the same market.

the only reason you have 2 cable/internet options now, is because both cable and the phone company already had wires strung all over the city when the internet went public.

You pay Your ISP on how fast the traffic will be not how big it is.

if you order a Grand Piano from amazon that is shipping from California to NJ you ain't getting that free with prime 2 day delivery.

Just like with shipping speed has a some what flat rate until you exceed volume.

Video on the net is volume
 

i'vegotwinners

All-American
Dec 1, 2006
20,492
6,594
0
You pay Your ISP on how fast the traffic will be not how big it is.

if you order a Grand Piano from amazon that is shipping from California to NJ you ain't getting that free with prime 2 day delivery.

Just like with shipping speed has a some what flat rate until you exceed volume.

Video on the net is volume

if you pay to have a piano shipped at a certain speed from Ca. to NJ, then you've PAID to have the piano shipped from Ca. to NJ.

and no, it wasn't free. thus the term "PAID FOR".

and yes, you "paid" for the weight as well.

and no, the seller of the piano does not also owe you for the shipping which the buyer already paid for, including weight and speed, and to try to extort said double billing, (which would in turn be passed on to you the consumer as double billing), would be bad behavior, and an abuse.

and a seller that's now also getting billed for the shipping the buyer already paid for, would have a hard time competing with a competitive piano mover who your ISP had an equity interest in, who wasn't also getting charged for the shipping the buyer already paid for.

you absolutely pay for how big it is.

you pay to have the packets delivered as sent.

you pay for the data you use, and the speed.

that's exactly what you are paying the ISP the bucks for.


if you weren't using lots of data and lots of speed, your internet bill should be more like $10 mo. tops.

video that uses large amounts of data and likes lots of speed, is the friend, even partner, of the wired ISP, not the enemy.

without video that uses lots of data and likes lots of speed, no one needs more than $10 mo worth of wired internet, and for that matter, doesn't really need wired internet at all.

you can just use your phone.
 

i'vegotwinners

All-American
Dec 1, 2006
20,492
6,594
0
The eventuality that you're missing is Network as a Service, which is 100% coming down the line.

A good analog is electrical power. In the beginning, you had companies aligned by geo which were 100% vertical. Con Edison (for example) had generating stations to make electricity and owned transmission end to end, from the power plant to the meter on your house. And they had zero competition.

Fast forward to today and you have companies that own the power plants, companies that own the distribution and other companies that serve as the interface to the customer. In many areas you may find companies that own two of those pieces but it's rare, now, to find companies that own all three.

The same thing will happen with internet / telecom - or rather, just internet, since straight telecom as an independent sector will soon be dead. The Amazons of the world will sell content out of the data center and the network that content uses to get to your device will be owned by someone else.

The universe tends to unfold as it should.

the electric company is regulated, including price.

it's a regulated monopoly.

how well regulated is always a concern, but it is fully regulated.

if classified title II, then the internet is regulated.

if not classified title II, then it's not.

if not, Comcast can pretty much do whatever it wants.

think if the electric company could send a magic signal down the line with said electricty, and said magic signal could completely control what appliances and furnaces and computers and water heaters and tvs and lights will or won't operate, or how well, on said electricity.

that electric company would need to be even tighter regulated than one who doesn't have a magic signal with the electricity.

well, your ISP has that magic signal, on top of the internet it delivers.

it has the ability to control what can or can't work, or how well, on it's service.

you ISP should be regulated just like your electric company, because it's a "must have" service from a monopoly or duopoly, (and duopolies tend to operate like monopolies), provider.

your ISP should be regulated even more so, because it actually also has the "magic signal", your electric company doesn't.

we're talking about THE INTERNET here, and the gatekeeper who controls both it, and all that's on it.

that gatekeeper can't be left just to their own whims and ambitions.

on top of which, if the internet is classified title II, thus subject to rules besides it's own, then the Googles, Facebooks, Amazons, etcs, will also eventually have someone to answer to.

thinking he who controls the internet and all that's on it, shouldn't have some regulatory oversight, is insanity.
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
55,607
51,272
0
the electric company is regulated, including price.

it's a regulated monopoly.

how well regulated is always a concern, but it is fully regulated.

if classified title II, then the internet is regulated.

if not classified title II, then it's not.

if not, Comcast can pretty much do whatever it wants.

think if the electric company could send a magic signal down the line with said electricty, and said magic signal could completely control what appliances and furnaces and computers and water heaters and tvs and lights will or won't operate, or how well, on said electricity.

that electric company would need to be even tighter regulated than one who doesn't have a magic signal with the electricity.

well, your ISP has that magic signal, on top of the internet it delivers.

it has the ability to control what can or can't work, or how well, on it's service.

you ISP should be regulated just like your electric company, because it's a "must have" service from a monopoly or duopoly, (and duopolies tend to operate like monopolies), provider.

your ISP should be regulated even more so, because it actually also has the "magic signal", your electric company doesn't.

we're talking about THE INTERNET here, and the gatekeeper who controls both it, and all that's on it.

that gatekeeper can't be left just to their own whims and ambitions.

on top of which, if the internet is classified title II, thus subject to rules besides it's own, then the Googles, Facebooks, Amazons, etcs, will also eventually have someone to answer to.

thinking he who controls the internet and all that's on it, shouldn't have some regulatory oversight, is insanity.
And the NN regulations, under title II, were minimal and straightforward. This is one of those rare cases where the correct answer is both simple and easy to understand. Pai is either an idiot (unlikely) or being paid off. Naturally, the fact that he worked for an ISP has nothing to do with it.