As a Vietnam Vet I have a problem with the fawning over Clay in the mass, left leaning media. Great fighter, amusing speaker, good role model for black youth. But I knew guys who painted their toes and testes pink to show the recruiter on Broad St in Newark to get out of the service. Has anyone really seen Ali at the mosque? Did he know the seven pillars? did he go to Mecca? He slipped his duty as he did so many right hands. A Ted Williams he was not.
Contrary on Ali
- Thread starter ngrant
- Start date
He didn't dodge the draft. He didn't run. He took a stand, a dsfensible one, and went to jail.
I respect you as a vietnam vet. I had relatives who battled that war but lets not overlook the bad things they did to soldiers in the war. I heard horror stories about how black soldiers were treated. Ali saw that and choose to take a stand in his own way. He paid the cost and got himself out of the dumps. Thats what we want to teach people in America. Its how you respond after adversity. He responded in a big way.
So, he avoided serving by another means. Many of us veterans don't care which path you used to avoid SERVING, it's still not admirable.
I would have dodged it too. Complete waste of time and life.
I thought he was cocky. Could have done without the antics, but I guess that's part of what makes him the greatest. I loved Marvin Hagler's demeanor just get the job done. He got screwed in that Sugar Ray debacle. Never liked the show boaters, I was always taught act like you've done it before and it's no big deal. That this is just another day at the office, me kicking your ***.
As a Vietnam vet I respect your contrary view but offer up a more churlish F You. Ali did not dodge the draft or go to the great lengths taken by many Rutgers students, a family member of mine included, to avoid the call. Ali confronted the system by following his conscience and , at great financial sacrifice and personal vilification, was prepared to go to jail ( not run to Canada) because of his views. A unanimous Supreme Court vindicated his efforts.
A Donald Trump he was not..
I'm a twice decorated combat veteran and recognize that there are many forms of bravery. Ali showed more than his share in and out of the ring. He was a great American and it was George W Bush who awarded him our nation's highest civilian medal, not the nation's left leaning media.
A Donald Trump he was not..
I'm a twice decorated combat veteran and recognize that there are many forms of bravery. Ali showed more than his share in and out of the ring. He was a great American and it was George W Bush who awarded him our nation's highest civilian medal, not the nation's left leaning media.
As interesting as his in the ring life was his personal life. Guy was getting some serious work done on multiple fronts. The battle for his estate is going to be as tough as his fights.
I like the quiet confidence but I also like the guy who says they gonna do it, does it and does it even better than he said he would. I like the psychological factor too. Ali was the greatest at defeating an opponent before they even entered the ring with him.
So, therefor, those who served honorably were not...what?... as smart as you?
Nice post. Thank you for your service and thank you for taking the time to see the world through someone else's eyes.
You have to be a Jets fan or loved Joe Namath then. I like the quiet confidence, I'm a Giants fan my favorite player was Harry Carson while most like LT. LT was one of the best defensive players ever, but Harry was the quiet confident leader and kept that defense playing together. The main reason it was so formidable, Harry made them a team.
Every Vietnam Veteran ( along will all that served) has the right to express their opinion on Ali's refusing to serve, but I hope they also object to the others that are now held in high esteem by the American public that found a way to avoid serving in Vietnam
There were many that found a way to avoid serving in Vietnam, through college deferment and on religious grounds.
Romney supported the Vietnam war, but chose to go on a Mormon mission to France rather than back up his support.
Dick Chaney used multiple deferments that kept him out of the draft as other politicians (Democrats or Republicans) did at the time.
Ali used the court system to prove his point and didn't try to avoid the consequences of his actions,but embraced the right to state his opposition legally .
Some of the things Ali said at the time doesn't seem right, but Ali did what he believed was right and fought for his right to believe that way.
He would have had an easier time , in my opinion, gaining support if he wasn't a Black Muslim (Nation of Islam) that was looked on as a radical black group and wasn't considered a mainstream religion.
There were many that found a way to avoid serving in Vietnam, through college deferment and on religious grounds.
Romney supported the Vietnam war, but chose to go on a Mormon mission to France rather than back up his support.
Dick Chaney used multiple deferments that kept him out of the draft as other politicians (Democrats or Republicans) did at the time.
Ali used the court system to prove his point and didn't try to avoid the consequences of his actions,but embraced the right to state his opposition legally .
Some of the things Ali said at the time doesn't seem right, but Ali did what he believed was right and fought for his right to believe that way.
He would have had an easier time , in my opinion, gaining support if he wasn't a Black Muslim (Nation of Islam) that was looked on as a radical black group and wasn't considered a mainstream religion.
Blindly loyal.
I had a college deferment, then a great number in the draft lottery, so I was never really in danger of getting drafted.....but I wasn't going. I don't know if I would have gone to jail....probably Canada. But I wasn't gonna just fight for something that I thought was wrong....no matter what Nixon and Agnew said. The American effort in Vietnam was WRONG. We had no business there.
And Ali is a hero of mine because of the stand he took....against his personal self-interest.
Truly the Greatest...of all time.
It was OK for a black man to fight and kill for US in the name of freedom and democracy, but he still didn't have it at home. There was these laws called Jim Crow that made seeing the same situation a little different. He was in position to speak out against it. Ali held to his beliefs and paid the price for it.
Winner. Close the thread, nothing more to say. Well done.
I fear for our country if one can avoid military commitment because of one's religion, ESPECIALLY Islam. I point you to the Black Muslim newspaper Final Call.
As a white guy, I could never imagine the way that so many African Americans were being treated in the south and what it must have felt like to be drafted into any of the major wars.
It's tough enough on you and your family to be drafted into a war, especially if you don't agree with it and even more so if you can't vote, sit where you like and are being threatened on a daily basis.
During the Civil War, one could avoid military commitment if he had 300 bucks, and we had a similar version of that during Vietnam (Trump, Cheney, even Bush by some measure) as we do today. How is that any better than a religious exemption?
Same guys who trash Paul Robeson do the same with Ali. It's easy for White guys to buck the company line
Black Men? Not so much.
Black Men? Not so much.
I didn't think it was cool what Ali did as far as Vietnam goes , but in retrospect that was a bs war that we never should have been in . It was a shame we lost so many good young men for that war . I am definitely thankful to those that served as many didn't have a choice.
On another note , Ali's treatment of joe Frazier for years was outright criminal . Frazier helped get Ali back into boxing and the way ali verbally abused him was criminal . So much so that Frazier was smiling when watching the beating he put on Ali in the manila fight years later because he thought that fight had something to do with Ali becoming a vegetable . It's all in a great HBO documentary on that fight .
On another note , Ali's treatment of joe Frazier for years was outright criminal . Frazier helped get Ali back into boxing and the way ali verbally abused him was criminal . So much so that Frazier was smiling when watching the beating he put on Ali in the manila fight years later because he thought that fight had something to do with Ali becoming a vegetable . It's all in a great HBO documentary on that fight .
Yeah I saw documentary. He definitely wasnt perfect. Thats what made him unique.
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Ali was influenced by a few in his entourage that were Muslim
He was not a coward....there was no way the US government was going to send him into a combat situation....and he knew that
He also became a serious Muslim....it was not a gimmick.
His "I am the greatest" was all self promotion.... I saw through it right away, and was amazed that so many took it seriously and thus hated him.
I assume those that have a problem with Ali must have huge disdain for Trump and Cheney, right?
and the long list of others
- and then there is Ted Nugent - he did not make a moral stand, he did not stand up for beliefs or principles - he was just totally concerned with his own well-being and just flat out did not want to go - so he literally didn’t take a bath and crapped in his pants for a month and then appeared at the draft office smeared in his own feces and urine in order to gain "unfit for duty" status.
And I assume that those calling out Republican politicians also will call out the equally long list of Democrats that dodged the draft. Right?
The way I heard him tell it in an interview, the change was initiated by what happened after Rome Olympics. He felt proud to win a gold medal for US in Rome and thought maybe he would "be able to eat in town now" (at white restaurant). The place he went to refused to serve him saying that he was a ni**er (something he said the Viet Cong never did). Ali joined NOI after that in 61. He became Cassius X under influence of Malcolm X. The NOI recruited him hard. Latter on in 64 he became Muhammad Ali
I believe part of the joining the religion (he was raised Baptist) was also to counter mob influence that was strong at the time. In any case Ali morphed along like Malcolm X and left NOI to become a Sunni. He left them to become a Sufi (the harsher Muslims despise them). Ali was rebellious in an understandable way. He wanted to be true to himself and pushed aside conventions and pressures. While he opposed people, things etc he was never a hater hating hate. He was a good natured fellow to one degree or another. Once quietly gave 400k to a Jewish old folks home after seeing on TV that they might lose their place. I see Ali as ultimately a religious free agent all-in-all. Always wanted to belong to himself first.
"My mother is a Baptist, and when I was growing up, she taught me all she knew about God. Every Sunday, she dressed me up, took me and my brother to church, and taught us the way she thought was right. She taught us to love people and treat everybody with kindness. She taught us it was wrong to be prejudiced or hate. I’ve changed my religion and some of my beliefs since then, but her God is still God; I just call him by a different name."
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Like John Kerry who was blasted for his service.? Or Max Cleland who lost his limbs? Sure, Clinton didn't step up to the plate either, but the hypocrisy coming from the party of God, country and military service is particularly special. Truly, false equivalency.