Confederate War Monuments

treetiger

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Four Civil War monuments are being removed in New Orleans because this War and it's monuments are considered racist. It will not be long before all Confederate monuments in the south will face the same fate. What is next, the elimination of Confederate cemeteries and grave markers? It seems many just do not care to get a better historical understanding of ALL events that led to this war!
 
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FreeSC

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Sep 22, 2003
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This is contemporary liberal mindset at it's best.

There are not two sides to any discussion. In fact, freedom of speech is meaningless, discussion is meaningless, the masses will believe what we tell them to believe.

Liberals in Amerika today are totally in line with the socialists of Nazi Germany and the Communists all over the world, who they adore.

It's funny, when Russia was part of the Communist Soviet Union, and didn't allow Christianity, liberals had no problem with them. Now they are a democracy and has growing Christianity, the Russians are a huge threat according to the liberals.
Go figure.
 

MKOTiger

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Jun 10, 2006
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"Well I hope Niel Young will remember, a Southern Man don't need him around any how."

Being southern is a state of mind, no monument will change that. In fact, removing the monuments due to a city populist vote will only kindle the fire.
 
Nov 20, 2003
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What is ironic is the fact that it wasn't even a "civil" war. What most don't understand (taught in our schools anyway) is a civil war is a war for control over one central government. The war between the States was a war because some States simply wanted to secede and the others forced them to stay. The southern States wanting to secede had no desire to take control over the northern States government.

Any human being in their right state of mind inherently knows that human bondage is a bad thing and should forever be outlawed in any society. Greed, power, etc. are the only desires keeping it alive. The vast majority of southern white people during that time frame were not even slave owners, they simply couldn't afford to be. As a matter of fact, depending what State it was, blacks were as likely to own slaves as whites were, human capital has been a way of life for thousands of years just like prostitution (a version of human capital) has been.

Personally, I could care less about any monuments that romanticize government initiated wars, the ones started by the people are usually for good reason.
 

MKOTiger

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You should probably google the definition of the term civil war. That is just one potential goal of a civil war.
Don't be fooled by a definition under Wikipedia. A civil war is a violent internal conflict between factions within the same regime to control all or part of the government. There was no internal conflict between the norther and southern states in the southern secession. The war started only after the northern states refused to accept or acknowledge that succession.

Had the south won the war, there is no doubt it would today be called a revolution (similar to the US revolution) as opposed to a civil war. To the victor goes the spoils, and thus it's been named a civil war. But make no mistake about it, this was not civil unrest against a monarchy, as in Great Britain in the 1800s where actual neighbor, friend and families fought against each other for the control of a central government. There was no civil unrest. There was no attempt to take over all or part of the us government. The southern states simply voted and chose to withdraw from the Union. As in the revolutionary war, the northern states said no, which led to the violent conflict. Our civil war is more appropriately described, by definition, as a failed revolution.
 
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nextoffensivecoord

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Jan 22, 2008
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This is contemporary liberal mindset at it's best.

There are not two sides to any discussion. In fact, freedom of speech is meaningless, discussion is meaningless, the masses will believe what we tell them to believe.

Liberals in Amerika today are totally in line with the socialists of Nazi Germany and the Communists all over the world, who they adore.

It's funny, when Russia was part of the Communist Soviet Union, and didn't allow Christianity, liberals had no problem with them. Now they are a democracy and has growing Christianity, the Russians are a huge threat according to the liberals.
Go figure.
 
Nov 20, 2003
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You should probably google the definition of the term civil war. That is just one potential goal of a civil war.

"That is just one potential goal of a civil war"
So tell me, in a war, if you achieve this (take control of government) goal, what other goal(s) is/are there? As far as I know, if successful, this term is called a "victory", hence, there are no more goals because you (the winning country) are in control.

So, as I said, this was not a civil war, it was a war between the States where one side simply wanted to leave and the other side said no you are going to stay.... by force. Why do you think they called it "secession" and not something that implied the south was going to or trying to take over? There is a big difference.
 
Nov 20, 2003
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Don't be fooled by a definition under Wikipedia. A civil war is a violent internal conflict between factions within the same regime. There was no internal conflict between the norther and southern states in the southern secession. The war started only after the northern states refused to accept or acknowledge that succession. Had the south won the war, there is no doubt it would today be called a revolution (similar to the US revolution) as opposed to a civil war. To the victor goes the spoils, and thus it's been named a civil war, but make no mistake about it this was not civil unrest against a monarchy, as in Great Britain in the 1800s where actual neighbor, friend and families fought against each other for the control of a central government. There was no civil unrest. There was no attempt to take over all or part of the us government. The southern states simply voted on it and chose to withdraw from the Union. This was, by definition, a failed revolution.

This man knows his history.
 
Nov 20, 2003
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I always though that a civil war was a war between citizens of the same country.

It is.

But as MKO said, the narrative is always defined by the victor. So the north referred to this war as a "civil war", whereas the south simply wanted to leave and had to try to fight to earn that right, also known as a revolution of sorts. That is much different than two groups going at it with a common goal of taking control over the central body (ruling) of government.
 

MKOTiger

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I always though that a civil war was a war between citizens of the same country.
A different way to look at it is if the victor is the historical power base, it's civil unrest that was put down. On the other hand, if the new party advocating change is successful, it's a revolution. So, the French Revolution, which pitted French aristocracy against the lower classes for the control of the French government, is called the French Revolution, but it clearly was a civil war. Contrast that with the British civil war where compromise was agreed by both sides, ultimately causing it to be designated a civil war. Naturally, had the the US not been successful, our revolutionary war would have likely been designated a putdown of civil unrest in the US colonies. Likewise, the revolutionary war for the independence of southern states is misclassified as the civil war.
 
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treetiger

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Slavery was an economic issue at that time, and much less a social issue. If it had been a social issue, then slavery should have been dissolved when the founding fathers wrote "all men are created equal", or allowing such a practice show a huge amount of hypocrisy is so much that they didn't use the statement "all white men are created equal." They knew it was an issue then, and these founding fathers allowed it to continue, and in many cases participated in the ownership of slaves. So the social issue of slavery being a north and south issue doesn't hold water. In fact some of the very politicians before this war began (including Lincoln!) said that the south could keep their slaves so long as they accept the additional tariffs!

That brings it to the economic issue. This is where understanding usually ends. Most are taught the social issue concept and the economic issues and the associate states rights are completely ignored! States had the legal rights to succeed from the union given unfair taxes and other issues that would affect their ability to survive economically. The southern states only used the constitutional rights that existed at that time, which have since been amended to not allow this option. Many historians feel that the institution of slavery would end within years of the Civil War anyway, being the religious and moral issues that were finally pressuring those who were not willing to change due to profit, and with certain technological inventions that would help offset cost, such as the cotton gin.

Finally, as many well know, war was not able to be averted. The north used the sociological argument, while the south used the economical argument. It has been written that Abe Lincoln was not all that concern about the slaves, even writing that he felt they would not achieve equality with the white man (and I write this in a more nicer way!). He did not want England coming to the aid of the south, which appeared to be what was happening. Knowing that England had abolished slavery just years earlier, and knowing what the sentiment of people of England were on this issue, Lincoln used the 'emancipation proclamation' to be an issue on the institution of slavery verses an economic or other issue situation, thereby effectively keeping England out of the war.

So that brings us to Civil War monuments, especially dealing with battlefields and generals. These men fought this war on the principle of economic survival. I'm sure others had differing agendas, but the south was looking at its survival in a non-industrial way of life, where the north perceived its existence as an industrial way of life. Many gave their blood and lives for the southern cause, now they, their cause, and their monuments are considered racist, being compared to the Nazi's! Once again I believe the narrow liberal mindset will win again here, and this war will be re-written in the future textbooks of being fought for the cause of upholding racism!

Additional read:

From First Principles (American Conservative Thought)
Civil War
Bruce Frohnen - 12/09/11
12Next »
Some observers may find it odd or even amusing that one of the central issues of contention within the conservative movement is a war fought well over a century ago. Yet one’s views on this war—and whether one prefers to call it “The Civil War,” “The War between the States,” or “The War of Northern Aggression”—says much about one’s vision of America’s central traditions and their worthiness for conservation.

Was this a war to end slavery and preserve the unitary, national government established by the Declaration of Independence and solidified under the Constitution? Or was it a war between those convinced that states remained essentially sovereign controllers of their own destiny under the Constitution and those convinced that the union was indissoluble? Or was it an attempt by the southern states to exercise their constitutional right to secede, to which the northern states responded with force so that they might continue to use the machinery of the federal government to enrich themselves at the South’s expense?

The facts of the Civil War make any of these readings seem at least minimally plausible. Certainly there was a great deal of rhetoric on the Union side to the effect that the South had become uncivilized through its practice of slavery. Certainly much of this rhetoric was hypocritical, given hostile northern attitudes and laws regarding black people. Certainly the practice of chattel slavery in the South was brutal and a violation of the natural law in that it denied many blacks the essential ingredients of a decent life—not only basic personal freedom, but family integrity and the right to worship as they pleased, among other things. And certainly there were substantial differences among Americans—and not just between southerners and northerners—regarding the right of secession. Some northern states had threatened to leave the union during the War of 1812, drafting declarations during their Hartford Convention that defended state sovereignty. Southern states, under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, had asserted their right to “annul” federal legislation harmful to their fundamental interests. Representatives of all the states came together in record time to rebuke the Supreme Court and its decision in Chisholm v. Georgia (1793), which declared that only one American government could be sovereign, and that that was the federal government. Yet many contended that secession was illegal, disallowed by the Constitution, certainly without the consent of all the other states. Abraham Lincoln argued that the nation was formed by the Declaration of Independence: that Americans were one people ruled by one set of ideas and a common commitment to human freedom. And for decades Supreme Courts, presidents, and Congress’s committed to internal improvements and open markets had been building roads, raising common tariffs and attacking state-based barriers to commerce.

The so-called American system of tariffs and internal improvements had accentuated growing differences between southern, western, and northeastern political, economic, and social life. Northeastern businesses profited most from the tariffs, which made goods from their European competitors more expensive, and northeasterners profited more from internal improvements (roads, harbors, and the like) than people in other sections of the country. Moreover, Americans in the various sections were growing more and more apart in their cultures. Western frontiersmen sought cheap land and increased migration from the northeast—which would increase the cost of eastern labor; they sought to ban all black migration as a danger to free labor. And the south’s economy had gone from a varied one resting only partly on a system of slavery its own people often condemned to an increasingly prosperous dependence on cotton and a slave system many began defending as in accordance with nature and God’s will.

Thus, the extent of independent state power, states’ economic interests, and even the cultural grounding of each section of the United States were, by the mid-nineteenth century, increasingly in conflict. The election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency may be seen, then, as merely the match that lit the powder keg. Earlier, Lincoln had occasionally spoken somewhat radically on the topic of slavery. But for the most part he had taken a predictable western position against slavery as a moral (and economic) wrong that should not be extended to the territories. Further, he came into office arguing for mutual restraint and promising to do nothing to harm the South or its slave interests. But southerners, having lost a hotly contested election to a man and a party representing a union of western and northeastern interests, were understandably angry and worried. That cool heads did not prevail was the source of great tragedy, but it was hardly surprising.

The point of greatest contention within the conservative movement revolves around the issue of state sovereignty and the connection (or lack thereof) between localism and slavery and the racism intertwined with slavery in the United States. Some on the Right have had a tendency to romanticize the southern cause and to overlook the real moral enormities of chattel slavery. In this view there was a War of Northern Aggression, by which the North sought to destroy the pre-capitalist, conservative, and agrarian southern way of life. While conservatives respect tradition and historical inheritance, idealizing a lost subculture and using this idealized vision as a means of condemning the mainstream of the American tradition verges on utopianism. To other conservatives, it compromises the coherence of our current tradition and denies our society potentially important defenders. Yet these southern partisans defend central principals of conservatism and of the American tradition: local autonomy and respect for tradition.

Others within the conservative movement reject southern traditions and localism altogether on the grounds that they at one time led to the toleration of slavery. Such thinkers prefer to base their vision of America and its traditions on a reading of the Declaration of Independence that sees America as a single, unitary state dedicated to the protection of individual rights. In this view, the North was morally obligated to invade the South in order to stamp out its evil, slave-based society. To condemn chattel slavery as practiced in much of the South prior to the Civil War is undoubtedly to claim the moral high ground. But other conservatives are highly critical of the basis of this condemnation, which rests on a rights-based ideology and seems to subordinate a respect for heterogeneous traditions as essential to the conservative project in favor of a political religion that makes the individual the center of all things and makes some form of liberal politics inevitable.

A third position, which is neither racially intolerant nor intolerant of local diversity, strikes many as more genuinely conservative. This approach combines respect for traditions with an awareness of their failings and a determination to deal with violations of natural law through gradual, non disruptive means. It also recognizes that centralized power generally does more harm than good no matter how virtuous its claimed end. In terms of the Civil War, then, this conservative position recognizes that the war was a tragedy of great proportions brought on by sin (and most especially the sin of pride) on all sides.

Further Reading
  • Genovese, Eugene. The Southern Tradition. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1994.
  • Kendall, Willmoore, and George W. Carey. The Basic Symbols of the American Political Tradition. Washington, D.C.: Catholic University Press, 1995.
 
Nov 20, 2003
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True.

A lot don't even think slavery was a significant factor.

Sadly, as important an issue slavery obviously is, at that time it was not nearly as significant as money. Money, more specifically, the issuance of money (paper) was the decisive reason for the "civil war", just as the American Revolution was.

The ordinary man (north or south) was duped into believing they were actually fighting for something when the real reason was to provide the elites (north or south) a means to achieve more wealth. The North's goal was to centralize all banking, the South was to continue as is, i.e. States could issue their own currency as needed.

This war, personally, is one of the most tragic human events in history (suffering/deaths) when you dig to the core.
 
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scartiger

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For those interested they're a Confederate museum in downtown Greenville that will teach you the history of the conflict.
 

GilaMonsta

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"That is just one potential goal of a civil war"
So tell me, in a war, if you achieve this (take control of government) goal, what other goal(s) is/are there? As far as I know, if successful, this term is called a "victory", hence, there are no more goals because you (the winning country) are in control.

So, as I said, this was not a civil war, it was a war between the States where one side simply wanted to leave and the other side said no you are going to stay.... by force. Why do you think they called it "secession" and not something that implied the south was going to or trying to take over? There is a big difference.
Well if you're going to look at it as that black and white, then every war is essentially based on taking control of one's government....
 
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Transference

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There shouldn't be any monuments that glorify traitors to the good ole U S of A. Especially when the majority of the monuments were erected in the 40's/50's/60's in a show of passive aggressiveness against the Civil Rights movement.

Thinking about it now, that type of sullenness is probably the reason the south lost the war in the first place. Just not enough fire IMO.
 

clemsonpaw00

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lol the monument doesn't even relate to a battle during the actual civil war. it was to honor the battle of liberty place, which took place in 1874, and here are the origins of the monuments:

"In 1891, the city erected a monument to commemorate and praise the insurrection from the Democratic Party point of view, which at the time was in firm political control of the city and state and was in the process of disenfranchising most blacks. The white marble obelisk was placed at a prominent location on Canal Street. In 1932, the city added an inscription that expressed a white supremacist view."

who the **** would defend something like that being taken down? are you racist or stupid or both?
 

treetiger

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Jan 17, 2005
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"I read these threads and all I can think about it how terrible it would be to be trapped in a real life conversation with states rights guy talking about the civil war."

Spoken like a true narrow minded liberal. Reminds me of the Jack Nicholson statement, "you can't handle the truth"
 

MKOTiger

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Jun 10, 2006
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True.

A lot don't even think slavery was a significant factor.
No one today thinks slavery is good. It's a terrible awful form of oppression. However, the fact remains that slavery was permissible in the US at the time of the civil war. The southern states did not withdraw because there was a mandate made to abolish slavery. There was no such law. Many states had voted against it and many had moved to make it a federal law, but it did not exist at the time of succession. Also, there had been multiple bills presented by southern congressmen for a gradual ending of slavery. The problem was that a large part of the southern economy was dependent on slavery. So was it a factor in succession? Absolutely. Was it a controlling factor? No, since slavery was permitted in the US at the time. It was mostly about buying and selling products across state lines.

That being said, the civil war undoubtably hastened the elimination of slavery, probably by decades and that's not a bad thing. In fact, imho, it makes the war worth it. But to make this into a social war is simply not correct. Right or wrong, the war was fought over $. The abolishment of slavery was a great political rallying cry for Lincoln, but this war was not started over social issues. It was started because the southern states succeeded. And they seceded for monetary reasons, one of which was the potential abolishment of slavery. The final result was probably best for all, but that's no reason to recreate history.
 
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MKOTiger

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There shouldn't be any monuments that glorify traitors to the good ole U S of A. Especially when the majority of the monuments were erected in the 40's/50's/60's in a show of passive aggressiveness against the Civil Rights movement.

Thinking about it now, that type of sullenness is probably the reason the south lost the war in the first place. Just not enough fire IMO.
Political opinion, unrest and protest are the rallying cries for all change, whether it's part of the political majority or whether or not you believe in it or not. It's what makes the good ol USA, the good ol USA.
 

casellers84

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Nov 3, 2008
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They can do what they want but the hilarious part is that they'll leave the statue of Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square. You know, the ******* who killed and misplaced thousands of Native Americans. I guess racism and mistreatment only matter when it follows an agenda.
 

clemsonpaw00

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don't give a **** about the origins of the civil war or what biased literature one has read to convince themselves that the south was in the right. i want someone to actually tell me any logical reason these specific monuments should remain standing after learning of their origins.
 
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Mr. Toad

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Slavery was an economic issue at that time, and much less a social issue. If it had been a social issue, then slavery should have been dissolved when the founding fathers wrote "all men are created equal", or allowing such a practice show a huge amount of hypocrisy is so much that they didn't use the statement "all white men are created equal." They knew it was an issue then, and these founding fathers allowed it to continue, and in many cases participated in the ownership of slaves. So the social issue of slavery being a north and south issue doesn't hold water. In fact some of the very politicians before this war began (including Lincoln!) said that the south could keep their slaves so long as they accept the additional tariffs!

That brings it to the economic issue. This is where understanding usually ends. Most are taught the social issue concept and the economic issues and the associate states rights are completely ignored! States had the legal rights to succeed from the union given unfair taxes and other issues that would affect their ability to survive economically. The southern states only used the constitutional rights that existed at that time, which have since been amended to not allow this option. Many historians feel that the institution of slavery would end within years of the Civil War anyway, being the religious and moral issues that were finally pressuring those who were not willing to change due to profit, and with certain technological inventions that would help offset cost, such as the cotton gin.

Finally, as many well know, war was not able to be averted. The north used the sociological argument, while the south used the economical argument. It has been written that Abe Lincoln was not all that concern about the slaves, even writing that he felt they would not achieve equality with the white man (and I write this in a more nicer way!). He did not want England coming to the aid of the south, which appeared to be what was happening. Knowing that England had abolished slavery just years earlier, and knowing what the sentiment of people of England were on this issue, Lincoln used the 'emancipation proclamation' to be an issue on the institution of slavery verses an economic or other issue situation, thereby effectively keeping England out of the war.

So that brings us to Civil War monuments, especially dealing with battlefields and generals. These men fought this war on the principle of economic survival. I'm sure others had differing agendas, but the south was looking at its survival in a non-industrial way of life, where the north perceived its existence as an industrial way of life. Many gave their blood and lives for the southern cause, now they, their cause, and their monuments are considered racist, being compared to the Nazi's! Once again I believe the narrow liberal mindset will win again here, and this war will be re-written in the future textbooks of being fought for the cause of upholding racism!

Additional read:

From First Principles (American Conservative Thought)
Civil War
Bruce Frohnen - 12/09/11
12Next »
Some observers may find it odd or even amusing that one of the central issues of contention within the conservative movement is a war fought well over a century ago. Yet one’s views on this war—and whether one prefers to call it “The Civil War,” “The War between the States,” or “The War of Northern Aggression”—says much about one’s vision of America’s central traditions and their worthiness for conservation.

Was this a war to end slavery and preserve the unitary, national government established by the Declaration of Independence and solidified under the Constitution? Or was it a war between those convinced that states remained essentially sovereign controllers of their own destiny under the Constitution and those convinced that the union was indissoluble? Or was it an attempt by the southern states to exercise their constitutional right to secede, to which the northern states responded with force so that they might continue to use the machinery of the federal government to enrich themselves at the South’s expense?

The facts of the Civil War make any of these readings seem at least minimally plausible. Certainly there was a great deal of rhetoric on the Union side to the effect that the South had become uncivilized through its practice of slavery. Certainly much of this rhetoric was hypocritical, given hostile northern attitudes and laws regarding black people. Certainly the practice of chattel slavery in the South was brutal and a violation of the natural law in that it denied many blacks the essential ingredients of a decent life—not only basic personal freedom, but family integrity and the right to worship as they pleased, among other things. And certainly there were substantial differences among Americans—and not just between southerners and northerners—regarding the right of secession. Some northern states had threatened to leave the union during the War of 1812, drafting declarations during their Hartford Convention that defended state sovereignty. Southern states, under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, had asserted their right to “annul” federal legislation harmful to their fundamental interests. Representatives of all the states came together in record time to rebuke the Supreme Court and its decision in Chisholm v. Georgia (1793), which declared that only one American government could be sovereign, and that that was the federal government. Yet many contended that secession was illegal, disallowed by the Constitution, certainly without the consent of all the other states. Abraham Lincoln argued that the nation was formed by the Declaration of Independence: that Americans were one people ruled by one set of ideas and a common commitment to human freedom. And for decades Supreme Courts, presidents, and Congress’s committed to internal improvements and open markets had been building roads, raising common tariffs and attacking state-based barriers to commerce.

The so-called American system of tariffs and internal improvements had accentuated growing differences between southern, western, and northeastern political, economic, and social life. Northeastern businesses profited most from the tariffs, which made goods from their European competitors more expensive, and northeasterners profited more from internal improvements (roads, harbors, and the like) than people in other sections of the country. Moreover, Americans in the various sections were growing more and more apart in their cultures. Western frontiersmen sought cheap land and increased migration from the northeast—which would increase the cost of eastern labor; they sought to ban all black migration as a danger to free labor. And the south’s economy had gone from a varied one resting only partly on a system of slavery its own people often condemned to an increasingly prosperous dependence on cotton and a slave system many began defending as in accordance with nature and God’s will.

Thus, the extent of independent state power, states’ economic interests, and even the cultural grounding of each section of the United States were, by the mid-nineteenth century, increasingly in conflict. The election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency may be seen, then, as merely the match that lit the powder keg. Earlier, Lincoln had occasionally spoken somewhat radically on the topic of slavery. But for the most part he had taken a predictable western position against slavery as a moral (and economic) wrong that should not be extended to the territories. Further, he came into office arguing for mutual restraint and promising to do nothing to harm the South or its slave interests. But southerners, having lost a hotly contested election to a man and a party representing a union of western and northeastern interests, were understandably angry and worried. That cool heads did not prevail was the source of great tragedy, but it was hardly surprising.

The point of greatest contention within the conservative movement revolves around the issue of state sovereignty and the connection (or lack thereof) between localism and slavery and the racism intertwined with slavery in the United States. Some on the Right have had a tendency to romanticize the southern cause and to overlook the real moral enormities of chattel slavery. In this view there was a War of Northern Aggression, by which the North sought to destroy the pre-capitalist, conservative, and agrarian southern way of life. While conservatives respect tradition and historical inheritance, idealizing a lost subculture and using this idealized vision as a means of condemning the mainstream of the American tradition verges on utopianism. To other conservatives, it compromises the coherence of our current tradition and denies our society potentially important defenders. Yet these southern partisans defend central principals of conservatism and of the American tradition: local autonomy and respect for tradition.

Others within the conservative movement reject southern traditions and localism altogether on the grounds that they at one time led to the toleration of slavery. Such thinkers prefer to base their vision of America and its traditions on a reading of the Declaration of Independence that sees America as a single, unitary state dedicated to the protection of individual rights. In this view, the North was morally obligated to invade the South in order to stamp out its evil, slave-based society. To condemn chattel slavery as practiced in much of the South prior to the Civil War is undoubtedly to claim the moral high ground. But other conservatives are highly critical of the basis of this condemnation, which rests on a rights-based ideology and seems to subordinate a respect for heterogeneous traditions as essential to the conservative project in favor of a political religion that makes the individual the center of all things and makes some form of liberal politics inevitable.

A third position, which is neither racially intolerant nor intolerant of local diversity, strikes many as more genuinely conservative. This approach combines respect for traditions with an awareness of their failings and a determination to deal with violations of natural law through gradual, non disruptive means. It also recognizes that centralized power generally does more harm than good no matter how virtuous its claimed end. In terms of the Civil War, then, this conservative position recognizes that the war was a tragedy of great proportions brought on by sin (and most especially the sin of pride) on all sides.

Further Reading
  • Genovese, Eugene. The Southern Tradition. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1994.
  • Kendall, Willmoore, and George W. Carey. The Basic Symbols of the American Political Tradition. Washington, D.C.: Catholic University Press, 1995.


Too long, and riddled with inaccuracy to boot.

And it's "SECEDE" not "SUCCEED"
 

MKOTiger

Heisman
Jun 10, 2006
14,188
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You're comparing war to an individual fight?

We can test out your question at the Wachovia of your choice if you like
So basically you said, the north kicked the South's ***, so they make the rules. Maybe most of the time, but not always. Rape and pillage is still not permitted in most societies, even for the victor. So, yea, I think Sherman should have been hanged. He's not a us officer I would ever be proud of. Regardless, recreating history is not in anyone's authority, which is the point of my response. If you don't like it, don't read it, but if you give a jerk comment, expect one back.
 
Sep 19, 2001
10,886
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True.

A lot don't even think slavery was a significant factor.

"Slavery" was clearly a factor. The problem is that most people don't understand the reasons why it was a factor.

For the North
- Southern tariffs were responsible for the vast majority of federal taxes at that time. A free south with lower port tariffs than the one that was passed shortly after secession would have economically undermined the entire northern economy. The reason these tariffs generated so much money for the north...slavery.

Relevant citations

March 18, 1861 the Philadelphia Press wrote: "Blockade Southern Ports. If not a series of customs houses will be required on the vast inland border from the Atlantic to West Texas. Worse still, with no protective tariff, European goods will under-price Northern goods in Southern markets. Cotton for Northern mills will be charged an export tax. This will cripple the clothing industries and make British mills prosper. Finally, the great inland waterways, the Mississippi, the Missouri and the Ohio Rivers, will be subject to Southern tolls."

and

March 22, 1861 the economic editor of the New York Times wrote, "At once shut down every Southern port, destroy its commerce and bring utter ruin on the Confederate states."

For the South the reason that "states rights" is constantly associated with this is because as far back as 1830 when a nearly identical tariff was put in place, South Carolina tried to nullify it but the Supreme Court denied it. The reason that fugitive slave laws at the time are cited around states rights was because it was seen as selective enforcement/favoritism of federal law if SC couldn't nullify the port tariff.

The biggest "slavery" reason for the south to secede was fear. You don't just see "slavery" mentioned in the declarations of causes, you see "hostility to slavery" mentioned and this is a fact that you can verify because of one man's name. John Brown. He accomplished nothing in his entire life. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. He has no reason whatsoever to be famous...except that after he was executed.

John Brown wanted slaves to organize and execute the slave owners. There were extremists in the north calling for a genocide against all southern whites. Ever since Haiti gained independence in 1804 this had been a significant fear that had spread across the south.

In 1860, slavery had been the world that everyone lived in for over 200 years. White or black, whether you asked to be in this world or not it was your world. A significant amount of people in the south didn't want slavery, but there wasn't anything they could do about it. You add to that guilt a fear that as soon as the slaves were freed they'd begin marauding around and killing all of the whites, friend or foe, as happened in Haiti...and suddenly ending slavery isn't just a money thing it's perceived a life and family safety thing (legitimately or not).

The events around John Brown's execution stoked those fires to the extreme. If they didn't, you'd never know his name because otherwise he was an unaccomplished failure. He was nobody. But his name forever validates that entire aspect of the build up to the war.

The war was about money and fear. Same thing that every single war is fought over.

For a quickish read on how the world was at that time, check out the Cherokee Declaration of Causes for a glimpse (6 months into the war).
 
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Nov 20, 2003
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There shouldn't be any monuments that glorify traitors to the good ole U S of A. Especially when the majority of the monuments were erected in the 40's/50's/60's in a show of passive aggressiveness against the Civil Rights movement.

Thinking about it now, that type of sullenness is probably the reason the south lost the war in the first place. Just not enough fire IMO.

By no means am I advocating or defending slavery, but you need to understand that the southern people were not "traitors". There was no treasonous acts perpetrated towards the Federal government at that time. Prior to this time period, secession was an acceptable out. What do you think we did to Britain?

You are correct about the monuments though, I always thought this was the "dark ages" (human rights) simultaneously running with the industrial revolution. The reason the south lost was two fold, no financial help (specifically borrowing power) and no large industrial base(s) for weapons.
 

Transference

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Political opinion, unrest and protest are the rallying cries for all change, whether it's part of the political majority or whether or not you believe in it or not. It's what makes the good ol USA, the good ol USA.
Political opinion and protests are one thing, but to wage war and only to lose is another. There should be no monuments to traitors.
 

DecemberGrad_rivals

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True.

A lot don't even think slavery was a significant factor.


Yep. The Confederate leadership certainly viewed slavery as a significant factor, and the very "cornerstone" of the Confederate cause.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

- Alexander H. Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederate States of America
March 21, 1861

Those words above tell me all that I need to know about the Civil War.
I was born and raised in the Lowcountry of South Carolina. You can't get more Southern than I am.
And I thank the good Lord that the South lost that war.
 

Mr. Toad

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Interesting thread here, but please people for the love of all that is Holy,
it's "SECEDE," and "SECESSION," not "SUCCEED" and/or "SUCCESSION."
 
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