Comparing Ulis and Green

[DerekMcPwn]

Freshman seasons only, per game averages.

Green

25.6 minutes
9.3 points
1.8 rebounds
2.7 assists
50.7% from 2
37.6% from 3
80.8% free throws
0.3 steals
1.6 turnovers

Ulis

23.8 minutes
5.6 points
1.8 rebounds
3.6 assists
38.6% from 2
42.9% from 3
80.8% free throws
1.0 steals
1.0 turnovers

Green is actually the better shooter, and that’s especially true when you factor that Tyler’s 3P% dropped to 34% the next season. On net, I’d say the stats give Ulis roughly a 2-3 point total value advantage over Green. Green is a more efficient scorer, which means more points and fewer missed field goals, which often function as a turnover. Ulis is a better facilitator and defender, and more careful with the ball. But assists can be a deceptive stat. Ulis was throwing lobs to Marcus Lee, WCS, and KAT. Green was - God help us - throwing them to Nick Richards. Assist tally is dependent on the scoring ability of the people you’re passing to.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. The purpose of this thread isn’t to say Green is as good as Ulis - the eye test tells you in less than 60 seconds that he isn’t, at least he isn’t yet. The point is that Ulis wasn’t elite from Day 1. He became the point guard we remember. And in my opinion, if Green puts in the work, he will be poised to make a similar jump, especially when surrounded by a superior roster. I hope he returns and we get a chance to find out.

 

[Grafenberg]

Nice post! But sadly, stats don't measure heart and that its what made Ulis so special. Kid's heart might have been bigger than Secretariat's. As fearless as he was, his testicles may have been too!

 

[kghighroller]

Those stats seem really off on Ulis? Regardless Ill take Ulis over Green any day.

 

[docholiday51]

A really good overview,it tells us much about where Green is as a player.Now we can wait and see what he chooses to do with his situation.

 

[Col. Angus]

If you wanna be more accurate with the numbers from an efficiency stand point then average em out over 40 minutes, or 35 minutes per usual starters' time.

NBA has a per 36 average to reflect normal starters' minutes over a 48 minute game.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Those stats seem really off on Ulis? Regardless Ill take Ulis over Green any day.

They’re from Ulis’ freshman season only. If you think they’re wrong, find me the right ones.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

If you wanna be more accurate with the numbers from an efficiency stand point then average em out over 40 minutes, or 35 minutes per usual starters' time.

NBA has a per 36 average to reflect normal starters' minutes over a 48 minute game.

I agree, and I usually do that. But sometimes, per 40 stats tell their own lies. If you’re a seven-footer who’s only in for 30 seconds and you grab a rebound, your per-40 just went to 80 rebounds per game. I thought it was appropriate to use raw numbers for these guys because they were both coming off the bench playing similar minutes.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Nice post! But sadly, stats don't measure heart and that its what made Ulis so special. Kid's heart might have been bigger than Secretariat's. As fearless as he was, his testicles may have been too!

Also made a seamless transition to college ball, like he was a vet.

 

[STL_Cat]

Stats don’t tell the whole story, not even close. Ulis and Green are totally different players. Ulis is a true PG, Green is a SG trapped in a PG body.

 

[BBUK_anon]

Freshman seasons only, per game averages.

Green

25.6 minutes
9.3 points
1.8 rebounds
2.7 assists
50.7% from 2
37.6% from 3
80.8% free throws
0.3 steals
1.6 turnovers

Ulis

23.8 minutes
5.6 points
1.8 rebounds
3.6 assists
38.6% from 2
42.9% from 3
80.8% free throws
1.0 steals
1.0 turnovers

Green is actually the better shooter, and that’s especially true when you factor that Tyler’s 3P% dropped to 34% the next season. On net, I’d say the stats give Ulis roughly a 2-3 point total value advantage over Green. Green is a more efficient scorer, which means more points and fewer missed field goals, which often function as a turnover. Ulis is a better facilitator and defender, and more careful with the ball. But assists can be a deceptive stat. Ulis was throwing lobs to Marcus Lee, WCS, and KAT. Green was - God help us - throwing them to Nick Richards. Assist tally is dependent on the scoring ability of the people you’re passing to.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. The purpose of this thread isn’t to say Green is as good as Ulis - the eye test tells you in less than 60 seconds that he isn’t, at least he isn’t yet. The point is that Ulis wasn’t elite from Day 1. He became the point guard we remember. And in my opinion, if Green puts in the work, he will be poised to make a similar jump, especially when surrounded by a superior roster. I hope he returns and we get a chance to find out.

Very good post. The difference that stands out in my memory is Ulis would shank you, or anyone else that got in his way..

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Stats don’t tell the whole story, not even close. Ulis and Green are totally different players. Ulis is a true PG, Green is a SG trapped in a PG body.

People say that, but I don’t think it’s true. We just desperately needed shooters this past season. If we had Green running floor general the entire time, we lose our single best floor-spacer. Cal made a tactical call putting Green in that position.

 

[BBUK_anon]

A really good overview,it tell us much about where Green is as a player.Now we can wait and see what he chooses to do with his situation.

I hope he will like to retain his situation...

 

[svoils]

I think those stats actually do a pretty good job of reflecting what we already know. Ulis way better with the ball in his hands, better passer, better at directing the flow of the game, better overall and lateral quickness, better shooter, better basketball IQ, etc. And, as others have mentioned, heart of a champion.

 

[*CatinIL*]

Very good post. The difference that stands out in my memory is Ulis would shank you, or anyone else that got in his way..

Yep, Ulis was COLD BLOODED...which is why he is my favorite player from the Calipari era.

 

[wildcatdonf]

Freshman seasons only, per game averages.

Green

25.6 minutes
9.3 points
1.8 rebounds
2.7 assists
50.7% from 2
37.6% from 3
80.8% free throws
0.3 steals
1.6 turnovers

Ulis

23.8 minutes
5.6 points
1.8 rebounds
3.6 assists
38.6% from 2
42.9% from 3
80.8% free throws
1.0 steals
1.0 turnovers

Green is actually the better shooter, and that’s especially true when you factor that Tyler’s 3P% dropped to 34% the next season. On net, I’d say the stats give Ulis roughly a 2-3 point total value advantage over Green. Green is a more efficient scorer, which means more points and fewer missed field goals, which often function as a turnover. Ulis is a better facilitator and defender, and more careful with the ball. But assists can be a deceptive stat. Ulis was throwing lobs to Marcus Lee, WCS, and KAT. Green was - God help us - throwing them to Nick Richards. Assist tally is dependent on the scoring ability of the people you’re passing to.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. The purpose of this thread isn’t to say Green is as good as Ulis - the eye test tells you in less than 60 seconds that he isn’t, at least he isn’t yet. The point is that Ulis wasn’t elite from Day 1. He became the point guard we remember. And in my opinion, if Green puts in the work, he will be poised to make a similar jump, especially when surrounded by a superior roster. I hope he returns and we get a chance to find out.

You could be right.

 

[BlueBomb]

Some Supreme Court Justice once said, "I don't know the definition of pornography, but I know it when I see it."

Well, I don't know the best definition of a point guard, but I know the player when I see him. And his name is Tyler Ulis.

Nothing against Green but he ain't no Ulis.

 

[docholiday51]

I hope he will like to retain his situation...

If he is half as gritty and tough as he was billed to be he will stay around,the ball is in his court let's see what he does with it.

 

[BBUK_anon]

If he is half as gritty and tough as he was billed to be he will stay around,the ball is in his court let's see what he does with it.

Hope we don't have to cover our ears...

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Shai actually turned the ball over more per minute than Quade this year, but Shai made up for it with his defense, rebounding, and ability to get to the rim.

If Quade does a better job on defense, which we were starting to see at the end of the season, and he protects the ball better, he could really turn into an impressive point guard.

 

[Whatsup]

Freshman seasons only, per game averages.

Green

25.6 minutes
9.3 points
1.8 rebounds
2.7 assists
50.7% from 2
37.6% from 3
80.8% free throws
0.3 steals
1.6 turnovers

Ulis

23.8 minutes
5.6 points
1.8 rebounds
3.6 assists
38.6% from 2
42.9% from 3
80.8% free throws
1.0 steals
1.0 turnovers

Green is actually the better shooter, and that’s especially true when you factor that Tyler’s 3P% dropped to 34% the next season. On net, I’d say the stats give Ulis roughly a 2-3 point total value advantage over Green. Green is a more efficient scorer, which means more points and fewer missed field goals, which often function as a turnover. Ulis is a better facilitator and defender, and more careful with the ball. But assists can be a deceptive stat. Ulis was throwing lobs to Marcus Lee, WCS, and KAT. Green was - God help us - throwing them to Nick Richards. Assist tally is dependent on the scoring ability of the people you’re passing to.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. The purpose of this thread isn’t to say Green is as good as Ulis - the eye test tells you in less than 60 seconds that he isn’t, at least he isn’t yet. The point is that Ulis wasn’t elite from Day 1. He became the point guard we remember. And in my opinion, if Green puts in the work, he will be poised to make a similar jump, especially when surrounded by a superior roster. I hope he returns and we get a chance to find out.

I think the big difference is height.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Nice post! But sadly, stats don't measure heart and that its what made Ulis so special. Kid's heart might have been bigger than Secretariat's. As fearless as he was, his testicles may have been too!

Those stats seem really off on Ulis? Regardless Ill take Ulis over Green any day.

Stats don’t tell the whole story, not even close. Ulis and Green are totally different players. Ulis is a true PG, Green is a SG trapped in a PG body.

Some Supreme Court Justice once said, "I don't know the definition of pornography, but I know it when I see it."

Well, I don't know the best definition of a point guard, but I know the player when I see him. And his name is Tyler Ulis.

Nothing against Green but he ain't no Ulis.

Lol. Nobody read the second paragraph of the OP.

 

[STL_Cat]

Shai actually turned the ball over more per minute than Quade this year, but Shai made up for it with his defense, rebounding, and ability to get to the rim.

If Quade does a better job on defense, which we were starting to see at the end of the season, and he protects the ball better, he could really turn into an impressive point guard.

Shai also had the ball in his hands a LOT more than Green. Skewed statistic.

 

[Nuke99m.]

I think Ulis had a little better supporting cast.

 

[STL_Cat]

Lol. Nobody read the second paragraph of the OP.

I read it all, I know you acknowledged Ulis isn’t Green. Just reminded me of the thread earlier in the year where the guy used stats to try to convince us Diallo wasn’t a much different player than Malik Monk. Or when opposing fans used stats to show us that Anthony Davis was basically Jarvis Varnado.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

I think Ulis had a little better supporting cast.

Definitely. Hoping Green gets his elite supporting cast next season. From an assist perspective, EJ, PJ, Quickley, and Herro will all be great teammates.

 

[Anon1704802562]

Remember that Green got poked in the eye and was out for awhile. He didn't get a chance to show how good he is.

 

[IndyCat1995]

Consider the team Ulis played on

 

[STL_Cat]

Remember that Green got poked in the eye and was out for awhile. He didn't get a chance to show how good he is.

I like Green, but he didn’t get a chance to show how good he is? Come on.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Remember that Green got poked in the eye and was out for awhile. He didn't get a chance to show how good he is.

And was out with a back injury for awhile. I agree that we didn’t even see Quade’s freshman ceiling, let alone his full potential.

 

[Rush2112 UK]

I think Ulis had a little better supporting cast.

No basketball comment... I just wanted to say that anyone who has The Yes Album as an avatar automatically qualifies as one of the top 5 posters on RR. :fistbump:[cheers]

 

[Grafenberg]

Lol. Nobody read the second paragraph of the OP.

How so? I never disputed what you said about the two. Just stated a simple fact that Ulis had a much bigger heart and was far tougher than Green, regardless of year or supporting cast. Plenty of evidence to prove it factual. He also didn't consider running when Harrison got more pt, or because Briscoe and Murray were recruited the next year. I like Green a lot and think he had a pretty good season. Definitely don't want him to transfer, however; regardless of numbers, which I completely agree with, Quade will never reach Ulis level or have a similar jump because he lacks the intangibles Tyler had. Now, that doesn't mean he can't be good in his own way, I just don't think it will be similar to how Tyler did.

 

[VikingCat21]

I was ok with how Green played this past season. Not everyone comes in and is dominant their freshman year. I wasn't expecting that out of Green and I thought he showed progress at the end of the year. I think he can make a big jump in his sophomore year. The main difference for him compared to Ulis, however, is the players that are coming in for their sophomore seasons. Ulis only had Briscoe coming in. He had to know he would be the starter and play a lot of minutes. Green has Quickley and Hagans coming in, and possibly Maxey. I can understand if he is worried about getting the minutes he needs to take a big step forward.

 

[kghighroller]

They’re from Ulis’ freshman season only. If you think they’re wrong, find me the right ones.

It wasn't a personal dig at you geesh. I just thought Ulis averages were higher especially the ppg.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

OP,
You should leave the statistical comparisons to those of us that are Statisticians.

First of all, to make a valid comparison, you should put these on a similar scale since Green played more minutes. Per 30min or per 40min stats would be better (won't change %'s). These are below (per 30min):

Green Ulis
11.0 7.2 points
2.1 2.3 rebounds
2.7 4.6 assists
0.38 1.26 steals
1.90 1.26 TOs
50.0% 38.6% from 2
38.9% 42.9% from 3
80.8% 78.9% from line

You can't say definitively that Green was the better shooter, by saying Tyler didn't shoot as well his SOPH season. Who knows, maybe Green will decline too. Ulis likely shot worse as a SOPH because he was the co-focal point of the offense (2nd in shots), I remember often having to force a shot before the shot clock went off because no one else would get open or would give him the ball back w/ 2-3 seconds left. Green was better from 2 (by quite a bit), but Ulis was better from 3. Line was close, both were good there, Green slightly better. I might give Green a slight edge on shooting though because of his 2's %.
I agree assists can be misleading. So I prefer to gauge that on what I saw. Ulis was a very good facilitator, while Green was like a vacuum with the ball, a predictable vacuum (when he did pass you knew almost exactly what he was going to do with it, same for Diallo).
TOs can be misleading too. Ulis had the ball in his hands a lot more than did Green, and still had less than 1/3 as frequent TOs. Put the ball in Green's hands as much as Ulis had it, and the difference might be a factor of 4 or 5 times.
Steals are one of the least biased stats. And like TOs, Steals were greatly in favor of Ulis.

True that Ulis was not elite as a FR. Overall they were probably reasonably similar in how successful they were as FR. But Ulis had intangibles that I'm not sure Green has. Those include a high level of fight/competitiveness in him, a consummate team-player, & very good quickness. I like Green. I just don't think he has the quickness to offset his lack of size, like Ulis had. I also don't see in him a guy putting his teammates first.

 

[BigBlueFan19]

Comparing Ulis to Green is like comparing Lebron James to Brad Calipari. Green isn't half the player Ulis was.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Green needs to learn to move his feet on defense. He was one of the primary culprits of our swinging door defense this season. Ulis was a bulldog.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

OP,
You should leave the statistical comparisons to those of us that are Statisticians.

First of all, to make a valid comparison, you should put these on a similar scale since Green played more minutes. Per 30min or per 40min stats would be better (won't change %'s). These are below (per 30min):

Green Ulis
11.0 7.2 points
2.1 2.3 rebounds
2.7 4.6 assists
0.38 1.26 steals
1.90 1.26 TOs
50.0% 38.6% from 2
38.9% 42.9% from 3
80.8% 78.9% from line

You can't say definitively that Green was the better shooter, by saying Tyler didn't shoot as well his SOPH season. Who knows, maybe Green will decline too. Ulis likely shot worse as a SOPH because he was the co-focal point of the offense (2nd in shots), I remember often having to force a shot before the shot clock went off because no one else would get open or would give him the ball back w/ 2-3 seconds left. Green was better from 2 (by quite a bit), but Ulis was better from 3. Line was close, both were good there, Green slightly better. I might give Green a slight edge on shooting though because of his 2's %.
I agree assists can be misleading. So I prefer to gauge that on what I saw. Ulis was a very good facilitator, while Green was like a vacuum with the ball, a predictable vacuum (when he did pass you knew almost exactly what he was going to do with it, same for Diallo).
TOs can be misleading too. Ulis had the ball in his hands a lot more than did Green, and still had less than 1/3 as frequent TOs. Put the ball in Green's hands as much as Ulis had it, and the difference might be a factor of 4 or 5 times.
Steals are one of the least biased stats. And like TOs, Steals were greatly in favor of Ulis.

True that Ulis was not elite as a FR. Overall they were probably reasonably similar in how successful they were as FR. But Ulis had intangibles that I'm not sure Green has. Those include a high level of fight/competitiveness in him, a consummate team-player, & very good quickness. I like Green. I just don't think he has the quickness to offset his lack of size, like Ulis had. I also don't see in him a guy putting his teammates first.

Lol. I’ll spare you my credentials, chief, and just points out two things. First, I already discussed using per-40 numbers in a previous post. I chose not to do so because those numbers can also be misleading in their own way, and because Green and Ulis played similar minutes (a stat I also included so people could factor it as they chose to), I was confident the numbers were reasonably comparable in their raw form. The original stats have their own value. Second, I didn’t definitively mark Quade the better shooter because Tyler shot worse as a sophomore. I marked him the better shooter because he and Tyler took similar shots and Quade finished the season with a higher overall FG%, a stat I did not include. Quade’s overall FG% was 45%, Tyler = 41%. That’s the real reason. I just thought it was also worth mentioning that given how markedly Tyler’s 3P% dropped the next year, and given that 3P shots were the smaller sample, it is probable that Ulis shot above his true average during his freshman season.

 

[DerekMcPwn]

Comparing Ulis to Green is like comparing Lebron James to Brad Calipari. Green isn't half the player Ulis was.

What a dumb comparison.

 

[Anon1704802562]

I like Green, but he didn’t get a chance to show how good he is? Come on.

Fair enough, my language came across as too extreme. I think DerekMcPwn said it better.

 

[Big John Stud]

Stats don’t tell the whole story, not even close. Ulis and Green are totally different players. Ulis is a true PG, Green is a SG trapped in a PG body.

Quade ain't no 2G, he ain't even a combo guard. Dude is a true point who had the ball taken out of his hands because SGA played so well. Watch his HS and EYBL tapes of you think he isn't a point.