Closing the Dickinson Debate?

[MdWIldcat55]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

 

[OmahaCats]

Kentucky is still lacking muscle. This will hurt them defensively and with rebounding. I think this team can be good. Luckily we do have length for rim protection and easy pick and rolls.

 

[5thGenJayhawk]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

"There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent."

That reason is Juwan Howard. Dickinson will thrive at KU, and would have anywhere else as he did at Michigan. The kid is a baller.

Howard is not a good HC, yet.

 

[CatPatrick13]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

I halfway agree with you... however remember this is a 24 sec shot clock... mandates a running team.

 

[UK90]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke massacred us by 44 points in the first game of the real season.

These laid back, relaxed-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a larger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

 

[Yardeth]

Dickinson would have been a great pickup for us, wouldn’t have really slowed us down. He picked another school, we missed on him, but we wanted him.

 

[Cats_2010]

UGO is athletic and fast? When did that happen?

 

[Jamal Mercer]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke absolutely massacred us by like 45 points in the first game of the real season.

These relaxed, lax-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a bigger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

Correct. I’m here in Toronto and enjoying watching the new guys. But, these teams aren’t nearly as good as we were told they’d be.

And the 24 second clock is making for a more exciting, quicker pace.

It’s fun to get to watch our team, but people are already getting carried away.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

I halfway agree with you... however remember this is a 24 sec shot clock... mandates a running team.

Should be 24 in college and 10 minutes quarters. Just IMO.

 

[Untouchables22]

Ironically after the last two years of Oscar being historically good at it rebounding is going to be a serious issue for this team. Ugo isn’t going to make a major difference in that area. If Somto stays in 2024 I still think we need a physical good rebounding post player. They can be fast and athletic and play on the perimeter to not clog the paint for our elite drivers but on defense we need defensive rebounding help.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Correct. I’m here in Toronto and enjoying watching the new guys. But, these teams aren’t nearly as good as we were told they’d be.

And the 24 second clock is making for a more exciting, quicker pace.

It’s fun to get to watch our team, but people are already getting carried away.

I love this team’s potential but we need the two bigs, Bradshaw and Ugo. Fingers crossed both heal up nicely and we don’t have to deal with any more serious injuries.

 

[Jamal Mercer]

Ironically after the last two years of Oscar being historically good at it rebounding is going to be a serious issue for this team. Ugo isn’t going to make a major difference in that area. If Somto stays in 2024 I still think we need a physical good rebounding post player. They can be fast and athletic and play on the perimeter to not clog the paint for our elite drivers but on defense we need defensive rebounding help.

Thiero looks like he knows how to get rebounds. Good positioning and sometimes looks like he can fly lol.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Kentucky is still lacking muscle. This will hurt them defensively and with rebounding. I think this team can be good. Luckily we do have length for rim protection and easy pick and rolls.

The only muscle we had in 12 was Jones. And he preferred finesse

 

[Runnin'Ramel]

Ok but we need to see what Cal does when his two 7' centers are available to him.

 

[WallMash]

UGO is athletic and fast? When did that happen?

UGO has the body and length to be a perfect lean mean down low big in athletic and fast team, hope he improved basketball skills.

 

[Cats_2010]

UGO has the body and length to be a perfect lean mean down low big in athletic and fast team, hope he improved basketball skills.

Not saying he can’t contribute to this team especially if he has improved immensely from last year but saying he is a fast and athletic big as the OP did is just a false statement.

 

[STL_Cat]

OP is literally the only one still talking about Dickinson. There hasn't been any "debate" about him in some time.

 

[Mike-D]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

Under the currrent offense, Dickinson would fit right in sharing the 5 with Tre, since he's not your typical Cal long ahletic prototype big. We wouldn't miss a beat.

 

[Mike-D]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke massacred us by 44 points in the first game of the real season.

These laid back, relaxed-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a larger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

That 18-19 team was still really good. My question is, will we keep running this 5 out motion offense? Or are we gonna revert back to circle cuts and force feeding the post? That's all I want to know, and I can predict what happens next season.

 

[sa_hunt]

Dickinson would have been a great pickup for us, wouldn’t have really slowed us down. He picked another school, we missed on him, but we wanted him.

We DID want him but I’m so glad we didn’t get him.

 

[KYFOSSIL]

OP did you really feel there was anything positive or productive starting this thread.

 

[ukatecowboy_rivals]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke massacred us by 44 points in the first game of the real season.

These laid back, relaxed-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a larger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

Can’t disagree but I do think there is more talent on this team then last years

 

[STL_Cat]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke massacred us by 44 points in the first game of the real season.

These laid back, relaxed-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a larger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

It's wild how it happens, too. Without fail every single time.

 

[Mike-D]

Ok but we need to see what Cal does when his two 7' centers are available to him.

Hopefully he doesn't change the offense.

 

[revcort]

I do agree Dickinson would have slowed down the offense and we'd be looking to get him touches in the paint most times down the floor. We'd be running the offense through him, essentially.

However, if this team has one weakness, it's a lack of strength and rebounding. There were multiple times yesterday, even though we had a big lead, when Canada manhandled us down low under their own offensive glass. That appears to be this team's Achilles heel if it can't be overcome. We need beef and we don't have much.

 

[Rockford]

Of course it is early

Yes.
Just wait until we play Kansas.
If he plays well and they win.... crashing servers.
Then, some will move on.

 

[bbnkat02]

I do agree Dickinson would have slowed down the offense and we'd be looking to get him touches in the paint most times down the floor. We'd be running the offense through him, essentially.

However, if this team has one weakness, it's a lack of strength and rebounding. There were multiple times yesterday, even though we had a big lead, when Canada manhandled us down low under their own offensive glass. That appears to be this team's Achilles heel if it can't be overcome. We need beef and we don't have much.

Canada was also sending all 5 guys to the glass on every shot. I don't think we will see too many teams try that. However, we do need a little bit of "beef" down there to go after missed shots. I think that will come with practice too.
Our guys are getting used to each other and will learn whose shots are more consistent and when to crash the boards.

I'm not too worried about rebounding yet, now come say late dec, and jan? Yes, if it's still an issue then I will be concerned.

 

[Camhawk2012]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

If it helps you sleep at night them ok

 

[bookerfan66]

I know these stats tell a partial story, at best, but Dickinson was no Oscar on the boards, and certainly no rim protector.

His stats last year in 34 minutes a game: 9.0 rebounds, 1.5 blocks. Onyenso in 6.9 minutes a game: 3 rebounds, 1 block.

I think Kentucky can get more rebounding and a more blocked shots -- and much better rim protection, altered shots, and so on -- with Onyenso and Bradshaw getting the minutes Dickinson would have gotten.

Add that to a much freer, faster offense oriented on the perimeter with the lane kept clear for penetration by Wagner, Dillingham and others. Then compare it to having guys with NBA 1st round talent like Howard and Bufkin standing around try to feed "Big and Slow" in the paint.

Well we play them so it will be proven on the court.If Kansas beats us with Dickinson having a good game you might change your tune.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

If it helps you sleep at night them ok

What would keep me from sleeping at night is if Kentucky had a coach like Bill Self who repeatedly recruited women batterers and violent thugs like Arterio Morris, Carlton Bragg, LaGerald VIck, Josh Jackson and Silvio DeSousa, and had lied and cheated so constantly that the NCAA charged the program with loss of institutional control, fraud and other major offenses. I'd be so sick and ashamed if that were the profile of Kentucky basketball, I think I'd give up my 50-plus years of fandom.

I was a little surprised Self recruited Dickinson. I could find no record he'd ever punched a woman or even assaulted another man. He doesn't sound like Toupee Bill's type of player. Now, Arterio Morris was a given.

 

[revcort]

I know these stats tell a partial story, at best, but Dickinson was no Oscar on the boards, and certainly no rim protector.

His stats last year in 34 minutes a game: 9.0 rebounds, 1.5 blocks. Onyenso in 6.9 minutes a game: 3 rebounds, 1 block.

I think Kentucky can get more rebounding and a more blocked shots -- and much better rim protection, altered shots, and so on -- with Onyenso and Bradshaw getting the minutes Dickinson would have gotten.

Add that to a much freer, faster offense oriented on the perimeter with the lane kept clear for penetration by Wagner, Dillingham and others. Then compare it to having guys with NBA 1st round talent like Howard and Bufkin standing around try to feed "Big and Slow" in the paint.

Valid points MdWildcat. I didn't know those numbers about Dickinson. I was just watching our guys getting pushed around a bit and was thinking some beef would be nice. But I think you could be right about our 7-footers being a better answer to rim protection and rebounding. I'm happy with what we have but just wasn't ready to concede that Dickinson wouldn't be a welcome addition after being outrebounded significantly by Canada. I'm a little worried about our lack of strength down low, though. It won't matter as much until we hit the SEC schedule.

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

What would keep me from sleeping at night is if Kentucky had a coach like Bill Self who repeatedly recruited women batterers and violent thugs like Arterio Morris, Carlton Bragg, LaGerald VIck, Josh Jackson and Silvio DeSousa, and had lied and cheated so constantly that the NCAA charged the program with loss of institutional control, fraud and other major offenses. I'd be so sick and ashamed if that were the profile of Kentucky basketball, I think I'd give up my 50-plus years of fandom.

I was a little surprised Self recruited Dickinson. I could find no record he'd ever punched a woman or even assaulted another man. He doesn't sound like Toupee Bill's type of player. Now, Arterio Morris was a given.

And what price did KU pay for all that?
The idea that Kentucky recruits a bunch of choir boy angels is hilarious. I love UK as much as anyone but, some of you have the thickest blue-tinted glasses I've ever seen. LOL!

 

[BBNinSC_rivals62411]

This will have to be a team rebounding squad, if they buy into that rebounding won't be a problem. The guards are athletic enough to get 5-6/game

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

Every time we take one of these summer trips, our fans immediately vastly overrate what it tells us about the team.

I remember when we took that Bahamas trip a few years ago, folks here were absolutely giddy excited by what they saw and what an unbeatable juggernaut it showed we’d be. That talk then abruptly ended when Duke massacred us by 44 points in the first game of the real season.

These laid back, relaxed-defense summer exhibitions are just for fun. They don’t really tell you all that much about how you’ll do when things get serious. I think we might need a larger sample size than just a couple summer exhibitions before we officially “close the Dickinson debate.”

^^^THIS x1000
I used to be one of the sheep who would start singing the praises after beating a bunch of garbage teams during the summer. But, not going to do that ever again. At least not while Calipari is still the coach.
Everyone needs to just throttle back their expectations.

 

[Loden buik]

Dickinson would have given us a proven low post scorer, but not a ton else. The upside of both Bradshaw and Ugonna is substantially higher than Dickinson. We can play faster and really spread out the floor without him. We are also more versatile in the styles and lineups we can play without him. I also feel like he could be a team-killer if he isn't getting what he expects in terms of minutes, touches and exposure. And on the defensive end, no one can argue we are better without him. We have a lot of length and fast twitch athletes at the 5 to block/alter shots at a high level, as well as disrupt passing lanes, switching on defense and recovering quickly. Dickinson doesn't really offer any of that.

 

[BigCat241]

The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

You dont even know what this magical "pace" you keep talking about was. Michigan was around #18 in P5 teams when it came to possessions per game, which isn't too bad and could be considered pretty good and well above average to its peers.

 

[Anon1658882690]

Should be 24 in college and 10 minutes quarters. Just IMO.

Probably a dumb thought but.. Cal should run majority of plays as 24 second plays.. It sounds good in my head right at the moment..

 

[fs-ripcord65]

I think those of us who were relieved to see Kentucky not get Dickinson have even more reason to feel that way after these early games. This team is so fast, free and lethal without a center as the focus of the offensive sets. It passes the ball well, shoots well from the perimeter and has multiple points of attack into the lane.

Of course it is early. But not too early to say this team will be better without a slow, mediocre defender in the paint, determining the pace at which the team can run its offense, and demanding the guards focus on getting the ball into him. (He took something like 25 shots last year as Michigan was losing to Kentucky. )

There is a reason Michigan finished 18-12 last year -- DESPITE HAVING TWO TOP 15 NBA DRAFT PICKS in Howard and Bufkin. The team was forced to play at a pace that didn't take advantage of its talent.

There are probably teams that can be better with Dickinson. But Kentucky with Wagner, Edwards, Reed, Dillingham, Reeves, Theiro (and Mitchell, though we didn't know that then) is much better in a perimeter-type game with the freedom for Wagner and Dillingham and Sheppard to attack and kick out to shooters.

Ugo and Bradshaw are fast, athletic bigs who can run the floor -- much better suited to the pace at which this team should play. That was clear back in May.

I agree, 100%. Your analysis is spot on. In addition to the purely basketball aspects, though ... I just didn't like Dickinson as a person. Can't put my finger on anything in particular, but -- I'm glad I don't have to pull for him this year !

 

[OmahaCats]

The only muscle we had in 12 was Jones. And he preferred finesse

Jones , MKG, and Teague were all very physical

 

[UKAlum88]

Should be 24 in college and 10 minutes quarters. Just IMO.

I think so too!

I’d even be a fan of 12 minute quarters!