By the numbers

[HagginHall1999]

I did a quick little exercise on all of our coaches since Rupp. Basically assigned points as follows:

0- no tournament
1- first round
2- second round
3- SS
4- EE
5- FF
6- Runner up
7- NC

Didn't hold it against Pitino for probation, Cal for COVID year ('19-'20 no tourney)...also no way to factor in condition of program when the coach took over. Lastly, field didn't expand to 64 until 1985 but didn't hold against Hall or as a plus for him...if you didn't make tourney you got 0 points for the season.

Here are the scores.

4. Hall- 39/13 years= 3, avg SS

5. Sutton-8/4 years= 2, avg second round

1. Pitino- 28/6 years= 4.66, avg EE bordering FF

3. Tubby- 33/10 years= 3.3, avg SS

6. BCG- lol

2. Cal- 40/11 years= 3.63 avg SS bordering EE

The argument for Pitino over Cal or vice versa has been back and forth for me over the years...Cal has some work to do now. The COVID year hurt but he's done himself no favors since 2016. For the most part it shook out about how I would have thought but per the rankings based off this data... I would only flip Hall over Tubby.

1. Rupp
2. Pitino
3. Cal
4. Tubby
5. Hall
6. Sutton
7. BCG

How do you rank our coaches?

 

[Tubbyfan78]

That’s basically saying the season counts for nothing. Which is fine if that’s what someone opinion. I would personally rather have a great season that ends in the sweet 16 than I crappy season that ends in the final four. It’s fine if people disagree but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Wunky]

That’s basically saying the season counts for nothing. Which is fine if that’s what someone opinion. I would personally rather have a great season that ends in the sweet 16 than I crappy season that ends in the final four. It’s fine if people disagree but that’s just my opinion.

Well of course you would... your name is tubbyfan lol.

All kidding aside, I do appreciate a good regular season. It’s what helps get us through the Kentucky winter!! But at the end of the day the tournament is what really matters, which is why Hall should be ranked ahead of Tubby IMO. And I liked Tubby. Dude just had some bad luck.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Good metric and good post. Would definitely put Hall ahead of Tubby.

 

[DraftCat]

Great programs are made in March... Sans Uconn lol

I'm a championship or nothing guy and I won't pretend otherwise. From what I can see Pitino if he stayed at UK would of done circles around Cal performance so far but we will never know.

 

[drew_ukfan_rivals]

Banner or Bust

 

[HagginHall1999]

That’s basically saying the season counts for nothing. Which is fine if that’s what someone opinion. I would personally rather have a great season that ends in the sweet 16 than I crappy season that ends in the final four. It’s fine if people disagree but that’s just my opinion.

In what way? They are getting 0 points for not making tourney, that is counting the regular season. I guess my point is how many teams have we had at UK that were damn good and flamed out in 1st or 2nd round? It isn't that many. More often than not if we lost in the first couple of rounds we weren't that good to begin with.

UAB season is the only one that jumps to my mind immediately.

Pitino's 27-7 bunch was probably his worst team once Dent went down. Ulis/Murray team was good but had no big. What am I missing?

 

[HagginHall1999]

That’s basically saying the season counts for nothing. Which is fine if that’s what someone opinion. I would personally rather have a great season that ends in the sweet 16 than I crappy season that ends in the final four. It’s fine if people disagree but that’s just my opinion.

Sorry, one other question...you are telling me you preferred some Sweet 16 seasons that ended in utter disappointment over the run of UK in '14?

That is wild if so...hell that might have been the best tournament run of my lifetime.

 

[Wildcats1st]

I did a quick little exercise on all of our coaches since Rupp. Basically assigned points as follows:

0- no tournament
1- first round
2- second round
3- SS
4- EE
5- FF
6- Runner up
7- NC

Didn't hold it against Pitino for probation, Cal for COVID year...also no way to factor in condition of program when the coach took over. Lastly, field didn't expand to 64 until 1985 but didn't hold against Hall or as a plus for him...if you didn't make tourney you got 0 points for the season.

Here are the scores.

4. Hall- 39/13 years= 3, avg SS

5. Sutton-8/4 years= 2, avg second round

1. Pitino- 28/6 years= 4.66, avg EE bordering FF

3. Tubby- 33/10 years= 3.3, avg SS

6. BCG- lol

2. Cal- 40/11 years= 3.63 avg SS bordering EE

The argument for Pitino over Cal or vice versa has been back and forth for me over the years...Cal has some work to do now. The COVID year hurt but he's done himself no favors since 2016. For the most part it shook out about how I would have thought but per the rankings based off this data... I would only flip Hall over Tubby.

1. Rupp
2. Pitino
3. Cal
4. Tubby
5. Hall
6. Sutton
7. BCG

How do you rank our coaches?

I think a -3 probably a -7 at least needs to be factored for a losing season. I know this isn’t a regular season thread but there are factors that need to be considered for doing things that have never been done.

 

[WeWant9_rivals]

That’s basically saying the season counts for nothing. Which is fine if that’s what someone opinion. I would personally rather have a great season that ends in the sweet 16 than I crappy season that ends in the final four. It’s fine if people disagree but that’s just my opinion.

I think the regular season is important, but at the end of the day people remember what you did in the tournament.

Id personally take something like 2014 over a solid regular season but no FF.

I do think Cal needs another title if he wants to go down as the top UK coach since Rupp.

 

[Tubbyfan78]

Sorry, one other question...you are telling me you preferred some Sweet 16 seasons that ended in utter disappointment over the run of UK in '14?

That is wild if so...hell that might have been the best tournament run of my lifetime.

I preferred 2003 and 2004 to 2011 and 2014. Both those teams were special. But i enjoyed all four.

 

[HagginHall1999]

I preferred 2003 and 2004 to 2011 and 2014. Both those teams were special. But i enjoyed all four.

Understandable. I loved both those teams as well. For context I was living in Lex then and graduated '02-'03 year...so yeah those seasons stung bad.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Great programs are made in March... Sans Uconn lol

I'm a championship or nothing guy and I won't pretend otherwise. From what I can see Pitino if he stayed at UK would of done circles around Cal performance so far but we will never know.

Agree and it pains me to say that. I thought Cal would have multiple titles by now.

Pitino left the program in as good of shape as it's ever been.

 

[cats#1again]

One of the worst times to do a poll like this one for cal.
A really good team taken away in 20 and one horrific season in 21.
He had 40 points after 19 avg 4.
I know last season counted but barely. This is the first full season in my eyes

 

[BigBlueFan19]

I think the regular season is important, but at the end of the day people remember what you did in the tournament.

Id personally take something like 2014 over a solid regular season but no FF.

I do think Cal needs another title if he wants to go down as the top UK coach since Rupp.

He doesn’t need another to go down 2nd behind Rupp. He’s already there…

 

[HagginHall1999]

One of the worst times to do a poll like this one for cal.
A really good team taken away in 20 and one horrific season in 21.
He had 40 points after 19 avg 4.
I know last season counted but barely. This is the first full season in my eyes

You are mostly correct. This factors nothing outside of a coaches control and I realize that. People around here don't seem to care or realize though. Last season counted, it is whether you give benefit of the doubt. It is his system but imo his system lends itself to feel more pains that the restrictions of COVID brought on than any. Duke sucked too and they are the only other program that was running similar to ours.

 

[CatPatrick13]

I did a quick little exercise on all of our coaches since Rupp. Basically assigned points as follows:

0- no tournament
1- first round
2- second round
3- SS
4- EE
5- FF
6- Runner up
7- NC

Didn't hold it against Pitino for probation, Cal for COVID year...also no way to factor in condition of program when the coach took over. Lastly, field didn't expand to 64 until 1985 but didn't hold against Hall or as a plus for him...if you didn't make tourney you got 0 points for the season.

Here are the scores.

4. Hall- 39/13 years= 3, avg SS

5. Sutton-8/4 years= 2, avg second round

1. Pitino- 28/6 years= 4.66, avg EE bordering FF

3. Tubby- 33/10 years= 3.3, avg SS

6. BCG- lol

2. Cal- 40/11 years= 3.63 avg SS bordering EE

The argument for Pitino over Cal or vice versa has been back and forth for me over the years...Cal has some work to do now. The COVID year hurt but he's done himself no favors since 2016. For the most part it shook out about how I would have thought but per the rankings based off this data... I would only flip Hall over Tubby.

1. Rupp
2. Pitino
3. Cal
4. Tubby
5. Hall
6. Sutton
7. BCG

How do you rank our coaches?

Thanks OP for the numbers. Interesting stuff.

 

[WeWant9_rivals]

He doesn’t need another to go down 2nd behind Rupp. He’s already there…

Some people will agree, some will disagree on it. A second title puts him clearly at 2nd, one title leaves open the debate between Cal and Pitino- in my opinion.

 

[STL_Cat]

He doesn’t need another to go down 2nd behind Rupp. He’s already there…

Certainly not cut and dry. Pitino has a pretty good argument for the 2 spot, too.

 

[KyFaninNC]

I did a quick little exercise on all of our coaches since Rupp. Basically assigned points as follows:

0- no tournament
1- first round
2- second round
3- SS
4- EE
5- FF
6- Runner up
7- NC

Didn't hold it against Pitino for probation, Cal for COVID year...also no way to factor in condition of program when the coach took over. Lastly, field didn't expand to 64 until 1985 but didn't hold against Hall or as a plus for him...if you didn't make tourney you got 0 points for the season.

Here are the scores.

4. Hall- 39/13 years= 3, avg SS

5. Sutton-8/4 years= 2, avg second round

1. Pitino- 28/6 years= 4.66, avg EE bordering FF

3. Tubby- 33/10 years= 3.3, avg SS

6. BCG- lol

2. Cal- 40/11 years= 3.63 avg SS bordering EE

The argument for Pitino over Cal or vice versa has been back and forth for me over the years...Cal has some work to do now. The COVID year hurt but he's done himself no favors since 2016. For the most part it shook out about how I would have thought but per the rankings based off this data... I would only flip Hall over Tubby.

1. Rupp
2. Pitino
3. Cal
4. Tubby
5. Hall
6. Sutton
7. BCG

How do you rank our coaches?

Interesting figures. You must be really bored. LOL. I do t have the patience to do that.

 

[kyjeff1]

With this, it really depends on how much weight you put on certain stats. Like, when you don't even qualify for the NIT, that should be a huge negative number.
Say what you want about Tubby, but the guy never missed the NCAAT while he was here. I'd have him 3rd behind Rupp and Pitino right now. I just think the 20/21 season was that bad and Cal has now missed the NCAAT twice.

 

[Ron Mehico]

With this, it really depends on how much weight you put on certain stats. Like, when you don't even qualify for the NIT, that should be a huge negative number.
Say what you want about Tubby, but the guy never missed the NCAAT while he was here. I'd have him 3rd behind Rupp and Pitino right now. I just think the 20/21 season was that bad and Cal has now missed the NCAAT twice.

Tubby was very consistent in that his teams had a higher floor and lower ceiling. Always felt like we would either lose anywhere from 2nd round to elite eight. But outside of 2003 and 2004 I never felt like we were in the hunt to win a championship (and funny enough 2003 was elite eight and 2004 was second round). After a while of feeling we had no realistic shot apathy set in. Calipari is definitely higher ceiling lower floor. I’ve felt we could’ve won the championship 5 times and have been awful twice. I’m still not sure what to expect for this coming year - we’ll either be final four good or if pieces don’t come together we’ll be very mediocre. I personally prefer Cal due to the higher ceilings most years but definitely more anxiety inducing! JMO of course

 

[kelzer]

IMHO the weights should be higher for going further in the tourney. Making the 1st round puts you in the top 64 teams, whereas winning it all makes you the top team. How is a championship only 7 times as good as a 1st round loss?

I don't think getting to 2 EE's (8 pts) is better than winning it all one year (7 pts) and then not making the tournament the next (let's say all the studs who helped win it left for the NBA, creating a major rebuilding year).

I would be curious to see the totals for the coaches using weights of 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

 

[BigBlueFan19]

Some people will agree, some will disagree on it. A second title puts him clearly at 2nd, one title leaves open the debate between Cal and Pitino- in my opinion.

I can agree Cal and Pitino can be debated on.

 

[BigBlueFan19]

Certainly not cut and dry. Pitino has a pretty good argument for the 2 spot, too.

I can agree with that. If what is being said is another title would put Cal at #2 with no debate, then I agree. I personally would give him a slight edge already over Pitino but I can understand where the debate is being made for Pitino.

 

[STL_Cat]

I can agree with that. If what is being said is another title would put Cal at #2 with no debate, then I agree. I personally would give him a slight edge already over Pitino but I can understand where the debate is being made for Pitino.

Sure, 100% another title would put him ahead of Pitino. Honestly, for me 1 more Final Four would probably do it.

 

[Panthur]

I did a quick little exercise on all of our coaches since Rupp. Basically assigned points as follows:

0- no tournament
1- first round
2- second round
3- SS
4- EE
5- FF
6- Runner up
7- NC

Didn't hold it against Pitino for probation, Cal for COVID year...also no way to factor in condition of program when the coach took over. Lastly, field didn't expand to 64 until 1985 but didn't hold against Hall or as a plus for him...if you didn't make tourney you got 0 points for the season.

Here are the scores.

4. Hall- 39/13 years= 3, avg SS

5. Sutton-8/4 years= 2, avg second round

1. Pitino- 28/6 years= 4.66, avg EE bordering FF

3. Tubby- 33/10 years= 3.3, avg SS

6. BCG- lol

2. Cal- 40/11 years= 3.63 avg SS bordering EE

The argument for Pitino over Cal or vice versa has been back and forth for me over the years...Cal has some work to do now. The COVID year hurt but he's done himself no favors since 2016. For the most part it shook out about how I would have thought but per the rankings based off this data... I would only flip Hall over Tubby.

1. Rupp
2. Pitino
3. Cal
4. Tubby
5. Hall
6. Sutton
7. BCG

How do you rank our coaches?

Excellent post.

 

[WeWant9_rivals]

I can agree with that. If what is being said is another title would put Cal at #2 with no debate, then I agree. I personally would give him a slight edge already over Pitino but I can understand where the debate is being made for Pitino.

That’s where I am at as well. If someone asked me to rank the UK coaches- I’d probably have Cal at 2 right now, but wouldn’t fault anyone who put Pitino in that spot. I think both have solid arguments for it.

One more title puts Cal in elite company though.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I can agree with that. If what is being said is another title would put Cal at #2 with no debate, then I agree. I personally would give him a slight edge already over Pitino but I can understand where the debate is being made for Pitino.

I was the same until last year. No excuse for last year.

Even in Pitino’s first year with probation and barely enough players for a team, he went 14-14. Also, when Pitino got rolling, his worst season was 27-7 I believe.

Cal was easily ahead of Pitino imo until the last few years. He needs to pick it back up.

 

[HagginHall1999]

Interesting figures. You must be really bored. LOL. I do t have the patience to do that.

You know it is funny I get these random ideas in my head and just do it. TBH outside of typing the message this took about 10 minutes to do.

 

[HagginHall1999]

IMHO the weights should be higher for going further in the tourney. Making the 1st round puts you in the top 64 teams, whereas winning it all makes you the top team. How is a championship only 7 times as good as a 1st round loss?

I don't think getting to 2 EE's (8 pts) is better than winning it all one year (7 pts) and then not making the tournament the next (let's say all the studs who helped win it left for the NBA, creating a major rebuilding year).

I would be curious to see the totals for the coaches using weights of 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

I understand this logic but this is why it was a quick exercise, cut and dry. The points are literally assigned by round and result.

I'm not interested in deducting points for not making a tourney...a zero is a zero. In my view I don't care how bad we are, if we don't make the tournament it is a beyond crappy season.

I get your point totally though. If Cal's 4 FF's are weighed greater his total result would be too, but using the same logic if we deduct for not making the tourney he gets pulled down.

This is just cut and dry which in my view is a clear look at overall results. Sans Tubby/Hall debate I have a hard timing arguing with the averages.

 

[kyjeff1]

Tubby was very consistent in that his teams had a higher floor and lower ceiling. Always felt like we would either lose anywhere from 2nd round to elite eight. But outside of 2003 and 2004 I never felt like we were in the hunt to win a championship (and funny enough 2003 was elite eight and 2004 was second round). After a while of feeling we had no realistic shot apathy set in. Calipari is definitely higher ceiling lower floor. I’ve felt we could’ve won the championship 5 times and have been awful twice. I’m still not sure what to expect for this coming year - we’ll either be final four good or if pieces don’t come together we’ll be very mediocre. I personally prefer Cal due to the higher ceilings most years but definitely more anxiety inducing! JMO of course

I agree with most of that, but it's like I mentioned, it comes down to what is most important to you.

UK basketball should never miss the tournament. You literally have no shot to do anything special when you miss the tournament.

I agree that Cal's ceiling most years is higher, but when you only win one title out of all those opportunities and with all the talent he has had, there has to be some negative numbers in there.

Cal really needs a 2nd title. If he gets it, he jumps two places in my opinion, but for right now, only having one title and missing the NCAAT twice, puts him below Tubby for me.

Here's the part that's acrewed up for me, as a person, I like Cal more than Tubby and Pitino, I like his personality much more than Tubby's. Tubby is a class guy for sure, he was a great ambassador for the program, but Cal's swag and drive puts him above Tubby and Pitino in that department.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

You know it is funny I get these random ideas in my head and just do it. TBH outside of typing the message this took about 10 minutes to do.

Sometimes the best ideas just happen in a few minutes. Excellent post on it.

My list would be as follows:

Rupp
Pitino
Cal
Hall
Tubby

 

[HagginHall1999]

I agree with most of that, but it's like I mentioned, it comes down to what is most important to you.

UK basketball should never miss the tournament. You literally have no shot to do anything special when you miss the tournament.

I agree that Cal's ceiling most years is higher, but when you only win one title out of all those opportunities and with all the talent he has had, there has to be some negative numbers in there.

Cal really needs a 2nd title. If he gets it, he jumps two places in my opinion, but for right now, only having one title and missing the NCAAT twice, puts him below Tubby for me.

Here's the part that's acrewed up for me, as a person, I like Cal more than Tubby and Pitino, I like his personality much more than Tubby's. Tubby is a class guy for sure, he was a great ambassador for the program, but Cal's swag and drive puts him above Tubby and Pitino in that department.

I agree on 2nd title but not with Cal being below Tubby, jmho...even with 2 missed tournies the guy has 4FF albeit with a lot of talent but also generally a revolving door, ha albeit self chosen.

That isn't even my point...my whole response to your post is around something I always read..."Tubby was a great ambassador". It is no knock on you Jeff at all, it just occurred to me I hear this far too often. I think Cal deserves credit for the ambassador piece far moreso than he gets- and admittedly you lauded his personality, etc.

Tubby seemed to be a nice family man but with the exception of probation we had more trouble with his teams than any other coach under UK by a mile.

Just off the top of my head these players were in trouble under Tubby's watch either legal or academic. Plenty more were in trouble thereafter. Hopefully I'm not misspeaking on any of the below but pretty sure I'm correct.

Fitch
Blevins
Daniels
Morris
Smith
Camara
Sears
Carruth
Hawkins
Shagari
Chiles

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Tubby was very consistent in that his teams had a higher floor and lower ceiling. Always felt like we would either lose anywhere from 2nd round to elite eight. But outside of 2003 and 2004 I never felt like we were in the hunt to win a championship (and funny enough 2003 was elite eight and 2004 was second round). After a while of feeling we had no realistic shot apathy set in. Calipari is definitely higher ceiling lower floor. I’ve felt we could’ve won the championship 5 times and have been awful twice. I’m still not sure what to expect for this coming year - we’ll either be final four good or if pieces don’t come together we’ll be very mediocre. I personally prefer Cal due to the higher ceilings most years but definitely more anxiety inducing! JMO of course

Tubby's 05 team was a legit contender imo. Cal needs to have a team this year that is a legit contender. If this team falters, Cal will have a fanbase on edge.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Certainly not cut and dry. Pitino has a pretty good argument for the 2 spot, too.

Not to mention, Pitino was at UK for a much shorter timeframe than Cal. Plus, his first two seasons were on probation. Cal has been at UK (eligible for the tournament) over twice as many seasons as Pitino, not counting 1990 and 1991. He only had six tournament eligible seasons here.

I know you’re aware of that. I’m just saying.

 

[kyjeff1]

I agree on 2nd title but not with Cal being below Tubby, jmho...even with 2 missed tournies the guy has 4FF albeit with a lot of talent but also generally a revolving door, ha albeit self chosen.

That isn't even my point...my whole response to your post is around something I always read..."Tubby was a great ambassador". It is no knock on you Jeff at all, it just occurred to me I hear this far too often. I think Cal deserves credit for the ambassador piece far moreso than he gets- and admittedly you lauded his personality, etc.

Tubby seemed to be a nice family man but with the exception of probation we had more trouble with his teams than any other coach under UK by a mile.

Just off the top of my head these players were in trouble under Tubby's watch either legal or academic. Plenty more were in trouble thereafter. Hopefully I'm not misspeaking on any of the below but pretty sure I'm correct.

Fitch
Blevins
Daniels
Morris
Smith
Camara
Sears
Carruth
Hawkins
Shagari
Chiles

You make good points and arguments can be made for all 4 coaches that have 1 title at UK to stake claim to the 2nd spot.

On the final 4 thing, yeah, Cal has 4, but nothing is created equal there. While none of those final 4's came easy, it really just means you won your region, so for me, it's titles that really matter at UK.

Additionally, missing out on the NCAAT is inexcusable and major points should be deducted IMO and that's why I put Cal behind Tubby. Yeah, you should award major points for winning titles, but it should be a huge point deduction for a missed NCAAT and an even bigger deduction for not even qualifying for the NIT.

But, this is your thread (very nice topic and discussion btw) so you set the criteria.

 

[STL_Cat]

One final point (and OP I'd love your perspective on this). I don't really understand the concept of throwing out the COVID year, I'm sure you would have given him credit for it had we had a good season. Right? Thoughts?

I don't see how you can throw something out just because it was bad when it COULD have been good and he would have gotten credit for it if so.

 

[HagginHall1999]

One final point (and OP I'd love your perspective on this). I don't really understand the concept of throwing out the COVID year, I'm sure you would have given him credit for it had we had a good season. Right? Thoughts?

I don't see how you can throw something out just because it was bad when it COULD have been good and he would have gotten credit for it if so.

I should have clarified. I threw out '19-'20. We couldn't play in the tournament because there wasn't one....so he didn't get a 0 for that year, it was just tossed out similar to Pitino (Sutton) probation years He got a 0 for last year both literally/figuratively.

I will say that probably hurt Cal losing the tourney for '20. Some will disagree but that team was built for a tourney- jmho.

 

[STL_Cat]

I should have clarified. I threw out '19-'20. We couldn't play in the tournament because there wasn't one....so he didn't get a 0 for that year, it was just tossed out similar to Pitino (Sutton) probation years He got a 0 for last year both literally/figuratively.

Oh **** ... my bad. That's a facepalm for me. I've heard this past season referred to as the "COVID year" so many times now I forget the season before was the tourney cancelling COVID year. Thanks for the clarification, makes perfect sense.