Best team to not win title?

[VA/UK]

After what '19 Duke did to us I'd have to toss their name in the hat. Like him or not Zion was the most transcendent player since AD. If he doesn't get hurt I find it hard to believe they don't win the title.

You’re a great poster, but you’ve been watching too much ESPN.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

I always thought that UK Notre Dame Elite 8 game kind of foreshadowed the Wisconsin game.

In terms of offensive efficiency that season, Wisconsin was #1 and Notre Dame was #2. Both of those teams were crazy good on offense. They both shot the ball extremely well and never turned it over.

The problem with Notre Dame was they had a terrible defense that year. Wisconsin was basically Notre Dame, just with a better defense.

The fact that we only beat ND by 2 points maybe should have given a little indication on what was to come.

All of that being said, any other year in recent history that 15 teams wins a title IMO. It was just the fact that year had three really really good teams and only one of them could win it all unfortunately.

There were actually more really good teams than that IMO. You had UK, duke, Wisconsin, Arizona, ND and Virginia (pre Anderson injury). They were undefeated until duke beat them at their place. With Anderson, they were legit.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Right off the top of my head, 1993 Kentucky was better than any of your last three. I really don’t agree with your last three at all but good offseason topic.

This. I’m shocked that the 1993 team hasn’t been mentioned, until you posted this. That was an unbelievably great basketball team. They had all the ingredients for a national title winner AND were playing lights out til they matched up with Michigan.

What’s lost here is that UK team was projected to mop the floor with Michigan. Had Michigan not slowed the game down to a snails pace and/or Brown never gotten hurt we win that game IMO.

The only shot Michigan had was to keep it a half court game, take Ford completely out of the game offensively and equal/out rebound us. They didn’t just succeed in one or two of those game plans. They succeeded in all three.

 

[gojvc]

This. I’m shocked that the 1993 team hasn’t been mentioned, until you posted this. That was an unbelievably great basketball team. They had all the ingredients for a national title winner AND were playing lights out til they matched up with Michigan.

What’s lost here is that UK team was projected to mop the floor with Michigan. Had Michigan not slowed the game down to a snails pace and/or Brown never gotten hurt we win that game IMO.

The only shot Michigan had was to keep it a half court game, take Ford completely out of the game offensively and equal/out rebound us. They didn’t just succeed in one or two of those game plans. They succeeded in all three.

The fifth foul call against Mashburn didn’t help either. It’s all etched into my memory because I was at the game.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

The fifth foul call against Mashburn didn’t help either. It’s all etched into my memory because I was at the game.

Totally agree. IIRC, that was a very suspect foul call. Hell, in 1992, Mash was whistled for FOUR bogus calls against duke. That’s not even a debate. Amazing that our horse was fouled out of both of our elimination tourney games in back to back seasons.

It’s etched in my mind as well. I wasn’t at the game, but I’ll never forget losing that one. It was a heartbreaker, especially losing to the damn “Fab 5”. Still think that UK team was the best team in the country that year AND an all time great team.

 

[Titpwhami2014]

Oh, the 91 team was definitely better, I wasn’t disputing your overriding point, I just have a weird little pet peeve about needing to correct factual misstatements.

And the 91 Duke team was also considerably better than the one year before. That’s another common misstatement I’ve seen, people claim that was the “same” Duke team, when that’s not accurate at all. For starters, the 91 team added Grant Hill, who made a HUGE difference for them, and the rest were a year older and more experienced. That 91 Duke team was far better equipped to handle UNLV than the one that got rolled the year before.

I understood. I’m the same way about factual stuff. My memory failed me there. All these years I thought George Ackles played on their 89-90 team.

And you are right about Duke. They added a freshman that year named Grant Hill. Kid could play a bit.

 

[HagginHall1999]

You’re a great poster, but you’ve been watching too much ESPN.

Appreciate the kind words. Fwiw I never watch ESPN unless UK is playing. If anything I have ptsd from the UK/Duke game that year.

 

[tls]

Vote. NO on ‘99 Duke. Didn’t they lose to the second ranked team in the finals?

 

[BigRedMachineBigBlueNation]

Agree

Almost put 1985 Nova. They get extra credit for playing the closest to perfect championship game ever.

 

[Blueblood410]

They almost lost to UCF IIRC.....got bailed out by the Zebras again.

Zion is the most overrated player IMHO. Plus, the dude choked it by giving up the shot at the end of the game. He didn't want the big stage.

That team was always destined to choke in the tournament because Barrett would not take a back seat to Zion when it came down to the final shot.

People also conveniently forget how bad Willie was in the 2015 Wisconsin game. 2 points and 5 rebounds in 33 minutes. I guess it's much easier to blame the Twins and Cal since that was always going to be where the blame went if they lost that year. The Twins had 25 points on 10-21 shooting.

If WCS plays just a normal game for him that season, UK wins and another banner is hanging in Rupp.

 

[LASTUKMGR69]

15 Cats? 70 Cats, telling my age now.

70 Cats my team Mike Casey hurt and Issel fouls out on terrible call against Jacksonville

 

[Tubbyfan78]

That team was always destined to choke in the tournament because Barrett would not take a back seat to Zion when it came down to the final shot.

People also conveniently forget how bad Willie was in the 2015 Wisconsin game. 2 points and 5 rebounds in 33 minutes. I guess it's much easier to blame the Twins and Cal since that was always going to be where the blame went if they lost that year. The Twins had 25 points on 10-21 shooting.

If WCS plays just a normal game for him that season, UK wins and another banner is hanging in Rupp.

The Wisky game is 100% solely on Cal. Come on man, they had 3 straight shot clock violations in the final four in the last 4 minutes with the beat team ever. Have you ever seen 3 shot clock violations in a row anywhere else? Have you ever seen 3 in a game? Much less in the last 4 minutes of the final four with a bench full of thoroughbreds. There’s no scenario that’s not Cals fault.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

That team was always destined to choke in the tournament because Barrett would not take a back seat to Zion when it came down to the final shot.

People also conveniently forget how bad Willie was in the 2015 Wisconsin game. 2 points and 5 rebounds in 33 minutes. I guess it's much easier to blame the Twins and Cal since that was always going to be where the blame went if they lost that year. The Twins had 25 points on 10-21 shooting.

If WCS plays just a normal game for him that season, UK wins and another banner is hanging in Rupp.

Yep. The Twins played very well in that game, outside of the last 5 minutes. I mean very well, especially Andrew.

We got a very unfavorable whistle that entire game. It was completely one sided. Even still, Cal totally mismanaged the game, especially the last 5 minutes. Hadn’t had a shot clock violation all season and then had three in a row during the most crucial stretch of the most important game of the season to that point. He got out coached. No question about that.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Since I have been paying attention to college bball: 1991 UNLV. Hands down.

 

[kybassfan]

2015 with Poythress. End of discussion

 

[oddis500]

Cal’s Memphis finals team has to be in consideration. CDR as a senior All-American and Rose running the show. Up 9 with two minutes left lol.

 

[UK90]

Since I have been paying attention to college bball: 1991 UNLV. Hands down.

I agree. My elders all told me it was 75 IU, but I’m not old enough to really remember them well, although I’d like to believe it since we’re the ones who get credit for taking them down.

But, of the non-champs that I can clearly remember, I know none that caused my jaw to drop when watching them quite like 91 UNLV. I’d stay up til the wee hours just to watch them crush teams.

But, fwiw, I maintain that probably the most underrated name in this discussion is 05 Illinois. I think folks have forgotten just how good …and have friggin fun to watch …that group was.

 

[ruppcat]

That team was always destined to choke in the tournament because Barrett would not take a back seat to Zion when it came down to the final shot.

People also conveniently forget how bad Willie was in the 2015 Wisconsin game. 2 points and 5 rebounds in 33 minutes. I guess it's much easier to blame the Twins and Cal since that was always going to be where the blame went if they lost that year. The Twins had 25 points on 10-21 shooting.

If WCS plays just a normal game for him that season, UK wins and another banner is hanging in Rupp.

I recall some shot clock violations in that 2015 game....

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Never liked the Poythress excuse. He sucked. I'm sorry. I don't think he was the difference. He was weak the entire time he was here, and he wasn't going to step up in 2015.

2015 is an easy culprit... but they were going to hammer us at some point anyways. If we beat Wisconsin, they would never allow us to beat Duke.

2010 kills me. I was at that game, and as a New Yorker that doesn't get to see many games... it hurt bad. That team STILL had the best talent of the Cal/UK teams to date. Just a bad night of shooting and WVU hitting lights out.

 

[KMKAT]

I'd have to put the 84 Cats on the list that was a very good team.

What one bad half of basketball does to your legacy. Bowie/Turpin/Bennett/Walker and that debacle was painful to watch.
That team was very dominant in many ways.

 

[KMKAT]

I always thought that UK Notre Dame Elite 8 game kind of foreshadowed the Wisconsin game.

In terms of offensive efficiency that season, Wisconsin was #1 and Notre Dame was #2. Both of those teams were crazy good on offense. They both shot the ball extremely well and never turned it over.

The problem with Notre Dame was they had a terrible defense that year. Wisconsin was basically Notre Dame, just with a better defense.

The fact that we only beat ND by 2 points maybe should have given a little indication on what was to come.

All of that being said, any other year in recent history that 15 teams wins a title IMO. It was just the fact that year had three really really good teams and only one of them could win it all unfortunately.

Yeah, shot clock violations not acknowledged allow those stats to be tainted. Wisky refs swallowed their whistle.

 

[STL_Cat]

Never liked the Poythress excuse. He sucked. I'm sorry. I don't think he was the difference. He was weak the entire time he was here, and he wasn't going to step up in 2015.

2015 is an easy culprit... but they were going to hammer us at some point anyways. If we beat Wisconsin, they would never allow us to beat Duke.

2010 kills me. I was at that game, and as a New Yorker that doesn't get to see many games... it hurt bad. That team STILL had the best talent of the Cal/UK teams to date. Just a bad night of shooting and WVU hitting lights out.

Little harsh take there on Poythress. Just because he didn't turn into the alpha All-American we thought he might be after that Duke game his freshman year (WOW), there's a big delta between that and "he sucked". Poythress was a role player. He made some huge plays in our run to the championship game in 2014.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Little harsh take there on Poythress. Just because he didn't turn into the alpha All-American we thought he might be after that Duke game his freshman year (WOW), there's a big delta between that and "he sucked". Poythress was a role player. He made some huge plays in our run to the championship game in 2014.

Maybe a little harsh in tone.. but he really never took that big step forward. Made some nice plays.. but more often than not, rarely showed up. Is there a nicer way to say "he sucked"?

He was a top10 recruit, stayed all 4 years.. you'd think at least by his senior season he'd have figured it out.. but never really did. I think that's what burns me the most. Yeah, Cal has recruited worse players and bigger busts.. but they were likely gone before we could see them develop. Someone like Skal comes to mind, or Juzang. But Poythress had 4 years to finally put together a great junior and/or senior season.. and never did. I think a lot of other "what if" players would have likely made it happen.

Edit: And boy, could we have used him in 2016 or what?

 

[STL_Cat]

Poythress was a nice role player. He didn't live up to his top 10 billing out of high school, but at least the guy stayed all 4 years and played a good role. He didn't suck. Say it however else you want.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Maybe a little harsh in tone.. but he really never took that big step forward. Made some nice plays.. but more often than not, rarely showed up. Is there a nicer way to say "he sucked"?

He was a top10 recruit, stayed all 4 years.. you'd think at least by his senior season he'd have figured it out.. but never really did. I think that's what burns me the most. Yeah, Cal has recruited worse players and bigger busts.. but they were likely gone before we could see them develop. Someone like Skal comes to mind, or Juzang. But Poythress had 4 years to finally put together a great junior and/or senior season.. and never did. I think a lot of other "what if" players would have likely made it happen.

Recall, his SR year he was only playing at like 80% because of that knee he injured the year before.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Poythress was a nice role player. He didn't live up to his top 10 billing out of high school, but at least the guy stayed all 4 years and played a good role. He didn't suck. Say it however else you want.

He no-showed his senior season and was committing 6 fouls per 36 minutes (part injured or not as Jonathan said). He would have left if he could. If he had the chance to go to the NBA he would have. Just because he stayed as his only option doesn't mean much to me.

What I DID like is that he was a great student for UK, as I recall. He valued the education aspect and I dig that.. maaaaaybe that's why he stayed, but im not sold on that.. either way, he was the biggest letdown in the Cal era, for me personally, on the basketball court.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Never liked the Poythress excuse. He sucked. I'm sorry. I don't think he was the difference. He was weak the entire time he was here, and he wasn't going to step up in 2015.

2015 is an easy culprit... but they were going to hammer us at some point anyways. If we beat Wisconsin, they would never allow us to beat Duke.

2010 kills me. I was at that game, and as a New Yorker that doesn't get to see many games... it hurt bad. That team STILL had the best talent of the Cal/UK teams to date. Just a bad night of shooting and WVU hitting lights out.

Disagree whole heartedly on 2015. That team defensively was historically great/dominant with Poythress, in large part because it allowed us to platoon and physically wear down and exhaust the other team. It was like if the old Arkansas and it's 40-minutes-of-hell also had shot blockers. The only week link was Lee, and he could at least hold his own defensively. But the Poythress injury took us from 9 legit players plus Lee to 8, so Cal (probably the right thing to do) moved us away from the Platoon. But the Platoon allowed us to play where the whole was better than the sum of the parts. You could just see it every 4-5min as we brought in a new fresh 5, the "oh ****" looks on the other team's faces. And Poythess was the one guy we had who could guard an athletic 3. Booker couldn't, and Lyles couldn't. He would have really helped in the matchups w/ Wisc and Duke.

But I do get what you are saying about 2010.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Disagree whole heartedly on 2015. That team defensively was historically great/dominant with Poythress, in large part because it allowed us to platoon and physically wear down and exhaust the other team. It was like if the old Arkansas and it's 40-minutes-of-hell also had shot blockers. The only week link was Lee, and he could at least hold his own defensively. But the Poythress injury took us from 9 legit players plus Lee to 8, so Cal (probably the right thing to do) moved us away from the Platoon. But the Platoon allowed us to play where the whole was better than the sum of the parts. You could just see it every 4-5min as we brought in a new fresh 5, the "oh ****" looks on the other team's faces. And Poythess was the one guy we had who could guard an athletic 3. Booker couldn't, and Lyles couldn't. He would have really helped in the matchups w/ Wisc and Duke.

But I do get what you are saying about 2010.

I think those are great points. But I also think teams started to figure us out. Wisconsin matched up well, they played a style that could mitigate the overwhelming athleticism of the platoon. And that Poythress injury was early in the season. We were able to adjust going forward. Didn't we throttle UCLA without him?


Just not convinced of the "Oh man, if we just had Poythress for the Wisconsin game..". Maybe he was the missing piece.. or maybe, like pretty much his entire career, he wilted in the moment. I'm not ready to assume Poythress wins us that Wisconsin game. But, I'm also not saying he couldn't/wouldn't either. Just not sure. I don't feel great relying on him.

 

[STL_Cat]

I think those are great points. But I also think teams started to figure us out. Wisconsin matched up well, they played a style that could mitigate the overwhelming athleticism of the platoon. And that Poythress injury was early in the season. We were able to adjust going forward. Didn't we throttle UCLA without him?


Just not convinced of the "Oh man, if we just had Poythress for the Wisconsin game..". Maybe he was the missing piece.. or maybe, like pretty much his entire career, he wilted in the moment. I'm not ready to assume Poythress wins us that Wisconsin game. But, I'm also not saying he couldn't/wouldn't either. Just not sure. I don't feel great relying on him.

The first paragraph, sure.

You mention him wilting in the moment though. Did you watch the Wisconsin game from the year before in 2014? We likely don't win the game without a couple of his huge plays in the last 5 minutes.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

The first paragraph, sure.

You mention him wilting in the moment though. Did you watch the Wisconsin game from the year before in 2014? We likely don't win the game without a couple of his huge plays in the last 5 minutes.

And his performance in the Duke game.. absolutely. But that's the thing with Poythress.. we have to pick these random moments out. Because the rest of his career was mostly a disappointment. That Uconn title game? 4 and 5, with 0 assists, 1 TO and 4 fouls.. The Georgia game in the tournament? 1 rebound, 3 fouls, and missed every shot. When Poythress showed up, he showed up.. but the problem is that it was just so infrequent.

Honestly, my issue with Poythress is mostly because of his senior year. And yes, he might not have been quite 100% (but again, still playing 25+ minutes, still fouling at an absurd rate).. but we really needed him that final season. We needed a proficient big body to help Skal and Hump.

 

[STL_Cat]

And his performance in the Duke game.. absolutely. But that's the thing with Poythress.. we have to pick these random moments out. Because the rest of his career was mostly a disappointment. That Uconn title game? 4 and 5, with 0 assists, 1 TO and 4 fouls.. The Georgia game in the tournament? 1 rebound, 3 fouls, and missed every shot. When Poythress showed up, he showed up.. but the problem is that it was just so infrequent.

Honestly, my issue with Poythress is mostly because of his senior year. And yes, he might not have been quite 100% (but again, still playing 25+ minutes, still fouling at an absurd rate).. but we really needed him that final season. We needed a proficient big body to help Skal and Hump.

I honestly barely remember Poythress's senior year. It was so dominated by Ulis and Murray (and Skal's disappointment) that Poythress just totally flew under the radar that year. Honestly coming off the injury, and by then had already become apparent that Poy was simply a role player. I didn't expect him to have a huge last season.

I just think you're being a little harsh on the guy, that's all. He wasn't a star and that's okay.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I honestly barely remember Poythress's senior year. It was so dominated by Ulis and Murray (and Skal's disappointment) that Poythress just totally flew under the radar that year. Honestly coming off the injury, and by then had already become apparent that Poy was simply a role player. I didn't expect him to have a huge last season.

I just think you're being a little harsh on the guy, that's all. He wasn't a star and that's okay.

But he was fine playing minutes his senior season. The staff put him out there and I don't see any reason to believe he wasn't ready to go. The injury was almost an entire year prior. And why should we not expect him to have a huge last season (or at least be a top contributor)? He showed us that he can do it at times. And that's ultimately my issue: idk if he liked basketball. He came and went at times, more often "went". He never seemed to progress one area of his game in 4 years. His best days were quite literally, the first few weeks of his freshman year.. I can't think of another player on ANY team that had a career like his.

Again I shouldn't say he "sucks" because maybe it's harsh. But still my personal biggest disappointment in the Cal era.

 

[fatguy87]

Poythress was a good player. He never developed the sort of skill handling the ball or shooting to get to that next tier of offensive capacity.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

In no particular order:

1975 Indiana
1983 Houston
1991 UNLV
1985 Georgetown
1954 Kentucky
1999 Duke
1993 Michigan
2021 Gonzaga
2015 Kentucky
1998 Arizona
1993 Kentucky
2001 Duke
2005 Illinois
1996 Kansas
1995 Arkansas
1996 UMass
2000 Cincinnati
2015 Wisconsin

 

[arenk]

I'd say the 75 IU team that we beat. We played great until the last 5 minutes, but IU played with Scott May in a cast. That IU team wass probably the best defensive college team I've seen with the possible exception of UCLA in 1968 when they beat Houston 101-69 in the semi final after losing to Houston early in the year. That IU team often held opponents under 60 ppg and many times under 50 ppg. They were great offensively too and had a good amount of depth.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I'm not saying Wichita State was one.. But that team, with some NBA players, should have marched to the Final 4 if not for running into the Harrison's 40 points that game.

Also.. FVV launched that last shot.. imagine it goes in and what that does for thr Shockers and his draft stock...