Beating a Dead Horse

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

I know everybody is tired of the rick ray threads, comparing him to stans, ray has to go, etc... But with that being said I wanted to pose what I thought was a interesting question.

Just looking at the first two years for each coach and nothing beyond that, why did cohen get a pass for his first two horrible seasons and ray was crucified after his first two? Was it because cohen had done it before? If so then shouldn't that give ray more time to build because he hadn't done it before?

I realize cohen went to the supers in year 3 but we still went 14-16 in sec play that year and just got hot at the right time. There is still time in year 3 for ray and while I don't believe we will make any type of run in the sec tourney it is still possible. With all of that being said Im fine with keeping ray or getting rid of him at this point. I just have a friend that makes comments every time ray loses but is silent when he wins and he was fine with keeping cohen after year 2 (6-24 in the sec) and wanted ray gone the minute he stepped on campus. I just think it is really unfair for ray for people to think that way.


Bash Away

 

[mcdawg22]

Go back and look at the threads in year 3 for Cohen. He wasn't getting a pass on here.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

So you agree that it may be unfair to want ray gone now because of how the cohen situation worked out?

 

[Sutterkane]

If Ray makes the NCAA tournament with a nice effort in the SECT by beating a couple of teams that at this point are tournament bound, I'm fine with giving him another year.

Cohen was 14-16 in the SEC sure, but that isn't necessarily an awful record compared to where we had been in previous seasons. Multiple Polk 2 seasons would've loved that.

Also, baseball and basketball are two drastically different sports for the conference. Basketball is full of awful teams except for Kentucky. We are the big 10 of football in basketball. Baseball however, the conference is a powerhouse. Even more so than in football I usually say. A close to .500 record in baseball is MUCH better than a close to .500 record in basketball.

 

[121Josey]

Are we talking about the same Cohen here? Is this the same Cohen that turned around a dreadful Kentucky baseball team? Is this the same Cohen that had a winning season in Year 3 (38-25)? Is this the same Cohen that was tied for 2nd in the SEC West in Year 3? Is this the same Cohen that has taken the baseball team to the post season every season except the first 2?

Then we must be talking about a different RR. I don't see the connection because RR hasn't proven anything.

 

[patdog]

That's not a valid comparison. For one thing, it takes a pretty good team to go 14-16 in baseball in the SEC (obviously that gets you an NCAA bid), not so much for a team to go 8-10 in basketball. Our RPI in Cohen's 3rd year was #18. Our RPI in basketball right now is #149.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

So rick ray takes over a dumpster fire and has no experience but yet we are calling for his head? If anything a lack of experience should be an excuse for more time to turn it around not less.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

The whole point of this thread was to not look past year two and see maybe that we are getting ahead of ourselves when talking about how we will never be competitive again in basketball. Hell cohen was 6-24 in year two and seem to be doing fine now. Believe it or not we may still be bad in basketball but we have improved this year.

 

[msstate7]

So rick ray takes over a dumpster fire and has no experience but yet we are calling for his head? If anything a lack of experience should be an excuse for more time to turn it around not less.

Here's another inexperienced coach we hired records vs ray....

7-21 (3-15 sec)
14-15 (6-12)
13-15 (7-11)
16-14 (7-11) nit
20-9 (13-5) ncaa

Ray's records

10-22 (4-15)
14-19 (3-15)
12-14 (5-8 )

Good thing we didn't fire the first coach for 3 straight losing seasons and only making the nit the 4th year bc he took us to the sweet 16 and final 4 later

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

The SEC is a wasteland in basketball. You have one top tier team, a few decent teams, then a bunch of teams who might make the NIT, and about the same number of just awful teams. It's not like baseball or football. Going 14-16 in baseball is like going 11-7 in basketball in this conference.

If Ray can manage to get to 8-10, he might deserve another year. That's a tall order at this point. I think 6-12 is the more likely and he deserves the ax for that.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Not only did lots of people here want Cohen fired after years 1 and 2, people were clamoring for it during years 3 and 4 a lot too. And some during year 5.

Seriously. People were melting down during year 3 and insisting we wouldn't make the NCAA Tournament. During year 4 several people insisted we wouldn't just not make the tournament, but would come in last in the SEC (we went 16-14 and then won the SEC Tournament). In Year 5, the Cohenbashers were out for his head again when we started 3-6 in the SEC (we finished #2 in the nation) that year. There were a couple people calling for his head again last year, although not many.

Anyone who thinks that Cohen has ever gotten a free pass on this board just isn't remembering correctly. Every year, there are always people demanding his firing, and every year Cohen makes them look like idiots by the end of the year. They never learn, though, and it's lather, rinse, repeat, the next year.

 

[patdog]

I agree. As bad as we suck, we're better than we were last year, and we were better last year than we were the year before. We've got a couple of promising recruits coming in. Ray will get another year and he probably deserves it. But late in year 3, Cohen already had an NCAA tournament team. Ray is nowhere near that. Not to mention, Cohen had an SEC championship on his resume.

 

[121Josey]

So rick ray takes over a dumpster fire and has no experience but yet we are calling for his head? If anything a lack of experience should be an excuse for more time to turn it around not less.

No. If anything, lack of experience is the reason not to hire him. RR was fighting an uphill battle, sure. But this isn't charity work. You work for your job or you look for another. I appreciate your attempt to puff some smoke on RR's achievements, but you are fighting an uphill battle and beating a dead horse.

RR has put out the "dumpster fire". Unfortunately, he hasn't done anything to show that he is the right person to lead this program and the people are voicing their opinion with their attendance or lack thereof.

 

[KurtRambis4]

I think

it's because Cohen is white and Ray is black. It's purely racial.*****

 

[121Josey]

Here's another inexperienced coach we hired records vs. RR...

Year 1 .273
Year 2 .273
Year 3 .25
Year 4 .615
Year 5 .333

RR's records
Year 1 .313
Year 2 .424
Year 3 .462...

I sure am glad we didn't fire the first coach after 3 straight losing seasons.**

 

[msstate7]

Here's another inexperienced coach we hired records vs. RR...

Year 1 .273
Year 2 .273
Year 3 .25
Year 4 .615
Year 5 .333

RR's records
Year 1 .313
Year 2 .424
Year 3 .462...

I sure am glad we didn't fire the first coach after 3 straight losing seasons.**

Basketball coach comparisons only** haha

 

[ERDawg22]

Is that you coach Ray?

 

[Philly Dawg]

Cohen had won an SEC Championship as a head coach.

 

[ERDawg22]

If you seriously are trying to compare Cohen to Ray then you are really grasping at straws. Ray in my opinion has our program physically less talented overall than from when he took over. When your team still hasn't learned how to pass a basketball after 3 years of "coaching", then just maybe this whole coach thing isn't for you. He should have been fired after year 2. I can't believe some of you want to keep him around for about year.

 

[msstate7]

If you seriously are trying to compare Cohen to Ray then you are really grasping at straws. Ray in my opinion has our program physically worse talented overall than from when he took over. When your team still hasn't learned how to pass a basketball after 3 years of "coaching", then just maybe this whole coach thing isn't for you. He should have been fired after year 2. I can't believe some of you want to keep him around for about year.

Worse talented? Wow...

 

[ERDawg22]

Sorry "less talented" mr grammar police

 

[msstate7]

Sorry "less talented" mr grammar police

I'm not critiquing grammar. I just don't agree with your post

 

[birdawg]

Uh, Cohen was a proven head coach when he was hired. There's your difference.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

People with that kind of attitude that wanted cohen fired and still find things to complain about with cohen and want him fired have to have miserable lives. The same goes for wanting ray gone after his first or second year.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

Did it not still take him 3 years to turn it around?

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

I could careless if we keep him or not. I was just providing a comparison of two coaches who had awful years their first two seasons. The only way I would want to get rid of him is by knowing that we would make an absolute home run hire and im not so sure we will do that

 

[KurtRambis4]

What's it

matter that it took him 3 years? He was a proven head coach. He was kept that long because he had shown that he could do that. People knew it was possible. He was voted SEC COY. He was thought of as being one of the top assistant coaches in the nation, prior to that. Ray and he are so far from each other, that it's laughable to compare the two. Ray has not done anything, ever, to suggest he can succeed.

 

[ronpolk]

I know everybody is tired of the rick ray threads, comparing him to stans, ray has to go, etc... But with that being said I wanted to pose what I thought was a interesting question.

Just looking at the first two years for each coach and nothing beyond that, why did cohen get a pass for his first two horrible seasons and ray was crucified after his first two? Was it because cohen had done it before? If so then shouldn't that give ray more time to build because he hadn't done it before?

I realize cohen went to the supers in year 3 but we still went 14-16 in sec play that year and just got hot at the right time. There is still time in year 3 for ray and while I don't believe we will make any type of run in the sec tourney it is still possible. With all of that being said Im fine with keeping ray or getting rid of him at this point. I just have a friend that makes comments every time ray loses but is silent when he wins and he was fine with keeping cohen after year 2 (6-24 in the sec) and wanted ray gone the minute he stepped on campus. I just think it is really unfair for ray for people to think that way.


Bash Away

Stick around during baseball season. Not only were people calling for his head in year 3, some did it in year 4, year 5, year 6 and some idiot (likely multiple) will do it this year.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Exactly

to suggest that people weren't (and aren't still) calling for Cohen to be fired, is just burying your head in the sand.

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

matter that it took him 3 years? He was a proven head coach. He was kept that long because he had shown that he could do that. People knew it was possible. He was voted SEC COY. He was thought of as being one of the top assistant coaches in the nation, prior to that. Ray and he are so far from each other, that it's laughable to compare the two. Ray has not done anything, ever, to suggest he can succeed.

I'm sure there are countless examples of assistants with no head coaching experience that went on to have very successful careers but I'm just too lazy to look it up. In other news, Frank martin was a proven head coach that took K-state to the NCAAs 5 years in a row and it's working out well for him at USCe.****

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

to suggest that people weren't (and aren't still) calling for Cohen to be fired, is just burying your head in the sand.

I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm just saying that it's pretty 17n stupid to do so with either coach

 

[121Josey]

I'm sure there are countless examples of assistants with no head coaching experience that went on to have very successful careers but I'm just too lazy to look it up. In other news, Frank martin was a proven head coach that took K-state to the NCAAs 5 years in a row and it's working out well for him at USCe.****

U R A DUBMASS

 

[121Josey]

In before the lock

 

[KurtRambis4]

Nobody

is arguing that there were or were not assistance coaches with no head coaching experience that didn't succeed. We are arguing that Ray is one that has not worked.

Also, nobody is arguing that there were or were not assistance coaches with positive head coaching experience that went to other places and failed. We are arguing that Cohen is one that has worked.

Comparing the two is just absurd. Not to mention you're comparing a coach in THE toughest baseball coference in the nation, vs one in a weak basketball conference.

 

[KurtRambis4]

I agree

that is 17ing stupid to do so with Cohen. I said it since day one.

Ray, on the other hand, not so much. WTF has he EVER done to suggest that he's a good coach? Have you ever seen us play?

 

[Dr. Andre Nowzick]

U R A DUBMASS

I appreciate the vote of confidence. When you cant think of a argument just call somebody a dubmass. works everytime****

 

[DAWG61]

Here's another inexperienced coach we hired records vs ray....

7-21 (3-15 sec)
14-15 (6-12)
13-15 (7-11)
16-14 (7-11) nit
20-9 (13-5) ncaa

Ray's records

10-22 (4-15)
14-19 (3-15)
12-14 (5-8 )

Good thing we didn't fire the first coach for 3 straight losing seasons and only making the nit the 4th year bc he took us to the sweet 16 and final 4 later

comparing SECBB in 1990 to 2015 doesn't work. Different worlds. Did we play in the Tin Gym back then?

 

[KurtRambis4]

In his defense,

there's not an argument to be made.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

we need at least 8 more threads today about this. its mo better than threads by our rabels in disguise about how much they admire bo and freeze

 

[BiscuitEater]

No ...

So you agree that it may be unfair to want ray gone now because of how the cohen situation worked out?

There was and are some BIG differences in the two situations ...

Cohen had been a HC at two schools before he came to be the HC at State. Won conference championships at both. He had totally revived the Kentucky baseball program and in only his third year there, won the SEC. Think that was the 'first' and only SEC baseball championship Ky has ever won. Big difference in hiring a 'proven' HC over an unproven assistant.

Of the two sports, baseball takes way longer to 'turn around' that basketball. Only takes a couple of good recruits to make a huge difference in basketball. Makes sense, especially with the reduced grants allowed for baseball. Think basketball has 13 full grants for a team of 5, while baseball roster is ~35.

BUT there were many, many posters on here and other boards calling for a change after two years. It didn't help that Cohen was not Ron Polk's chosen successor.

In his third year, it became mute when Cohen took the team to a SuperRegional.

In his third year, Cohen had an SEC win % of 47% (14-16) and made a Super ... in a way tougher SEC Baseball league. Think most on here would be for Ray getting another year if he gets to ~47% (8 wins) this year and gets to post season.