Baseballs Rumor Mill: Don't shoot the messenger

missouridawg

Junior
Oct 6, 2009
9,407
309
83
Cyr - Voted off team by players. Curfew violation. Consistently terrible. attitude.

Mangum - Curfew violation

Marrero - Threatened entire academic advisor staff. Also, remember that he is from Miami. And remember what miami is famous for. Again, rumors. Don't shoot the messenger.

Multiple players serving suspensions throughout season on game-by-game basis for failed drug testing.

Worst academic performance by the team in 10 years...

Coach Cann is in a tough spot. Our fan base needs to be patient with him, as it appears Cohen checked out a wee bit before he was formally announced as AD. Apparently, we have some great guys on the team but the bad apples are BBBBBAAAAAAAADDDDD. Couple that with the arm problems and Cann is in between a rock and hard place. Be patient.
 
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bulldogcountry1

Redshirt
Jun 4, 2007
2,311
1
38
So, we wait 3-4 years for Cohen to even start getting HIS players in, and 8 years later, we still have cancers on the team?
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
61,325
33,037
113
So, we wait 3-4 years for Cohen to even start getting HIS players in, and 8 years later, we still have cancers on the team?
Careful. Some people get offended when you point out that Cohen hasn't exactly walked on water his entire tenure at MSU.
 

engie

Sophomore
May 29, 2011
10,764
106
63
It's amazing how this kind of crap only ever gets any play(and it is ALL that's talked about) -- when we struggle. Not only that -- players that see any controversy in their youth or don't light the SEC on fire immediately -- 3/4 of this message board writes off as failures that will never amount to much. You'd think the lesson would be learned with all the cliff jumping during/after 2015 -- but it never is learned. How many of you denied the talent level of the players in that class -- most of which dealt with injuries that set them a year behind a normal schedule? A bunch of you did. But you've forgotten about that -- in order the do the same thing again now.

This team's issue isn't the inmates running the asylum. It's just another perfect storm of circumstances and people digging into the behind the scenes stuff because the on-field product isn't very good. No one raised hell when half the team was at the bars Saturday night when we were hosting in 2013. Presumably because we won.
Some of us warned a long way in advance that this kind of year could be coming. Ultimately, this team is still close to being good, even besides the fact that it lost 11 players to MLB last year to go with 7 season-ending arm surgeries, another nagging pitching injury, our 2B never being able to get healthy yet, our presumed starting catcher having his head up his own ***, and another of our backup catchers being down with nagging stuff. How many games have we not had a single AB with the chance to win in the 8th or 9th? Not too many of them. We're battling -- just not quite there given the circumstances. Unlike Lowe and Kruger, a bunch of these guys are a year away -- and the meat of our staff is 2 years away given the timing of their surgery. It sucks but there is nothing to be done about it now.

I didn't love the Cohen-to-AD idea -- and I didn't love the Canni hire. But it's where we are at now and we have to let it play out. I already know I can't prevent the freak out -- so I'll probably just zone out and be IRL productive for most of this season, then check back in when everyone goes back to the Cape.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
61,325
33,037
113
The teams issue is we finished last in the SEC in 2015 and we're going to finish damn near there this year. That's inexcusable and it is ALL on John Cohen.
 

Bulldogg31

Redshirt
Dec 9, 2013
8,263
0
0
So what I hear you saying is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as it stands now, if nothing changes and all remains equal, being that the situation is fluid, I don't think anyone would argue that this sums it up.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,782
24,668
113
I would actually be rather interested to see where LSU would be if they lost 13 players to the draft, then 5 returning pitchers to TJ, the replaced their HC at the end of Fall Ball.
 

benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
We sure seem to see more than our fair share of...

...perfect storms. What are the odds?
"That's baseball"
"Cohen recruited for the old ball"
"Everybody graduated"

You know, it's not that people aren't patient or can't see the issues at hand.
I think it's that these "prefect storm" type excuses are wearing thin.
We are one of a handful of programs in this entire country that give a rat's *** about baseball.
And yet we seem to have these "perfect storm" moments every couple of years.

I am in no way, shape,form or fashion pinning this on Cann.
He truly is a victim of this storm - whether natural or induced.
But to continue to trot out the "victim of a perfect storm" excuse for Cohen is a wee bit Pollyannaish.



It's amazing how this kind of crap only ever gets any play(and it is ALL that's talked about) -- when we struggle. Not only that -- players that see any controversy in their youth or don't light the SEC on fire immediately -- 3/4 of this message board writes off as failures that will never amount to much. You'd think the lesson would be learned with all the cliff jumping during/after 2015 -- but it never is learned. How many of you denied the talent level of the players in that class -- most of which dealt with injuries that set them a year behind a normal schedule? A bunch of you did. But you've forgotten about that -- in order the do the same thing again now.

This team's issue isn't the inmates running the asylum. It's just another perfect storm of circumstances and people digging into the behind the scenes stuff because the on-field product isn't very good. No one raised hell when half the team was at the bars Saturday night when we were hosting in 2013. Presumably because we won.
Some of us warned a long way in advance that this kind of year could be coming. Ultimately, this team is still close to being good, even besides the fact that it lost 11 players to MLB last year to go with 7 season-ending arm surgeries, another nagging pitching injury, our 2B never being able to get healthy yet, our presumed starting catcher having his head up his own ***, and another of our backup catchers being down with nagging stuff. How many games have we not had a single AB with the chance to win in the 8th or 9th? Not too many of them. We're battling -- just not quite there given the circumstances. Unlike Lowe and Kruger, a bunch of these guys are a year away -- and the meat of our staff is 2 years away given the timing of their surgery. It sucks but there is nothing to be done about it now.

I didn't love the Cohen-to-AD idea -- and I didn't love the Canni hire. But it's where we are at now and we have to let it play out. I already know I can't prevent the freak out -- so I'll probably just zone out and be IRL productive for most of this season, then check back in when everyone goes back to the Cape.
 

The Peeper

Heisman
Feb 26, 2008
16,988
12,863
113
Can't wait till basketball!.. nope.
Can't wait till baseball!... nope.
Can't wait till The Cape... seriously?
 

CochiseCowbell

Heisman
Oct 29, 2012
15,914
15,068
113
We are a Women's Basketball School!

But seriously, what the hell time is curfew & is it only on nights before games?
 

engie

Sophomore
May 29, 2011
10,764
106
63
I see most of the decent baseball posters have already quit trying. We should nevAr miss the postseason down 20 players!!1! Coinz blew out the arms and made them all leave early!1

The worst part in all of this is having to hear Pat's coinz is the suk idea regurgitated into all eternity off an SEC championship and our first national seed.
 

benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
This is one of my favorite arguments....

Are we the only team that loses people to the draft/injury ever year?
Surely not. And if not, how do other teams handle it?
If so, why does it happen to us?
Why are we always "rebuilding"?
How are Ole Miss and LSU always better than mediocre-bad?
No perfect storms there I guess.

For the record, I think Cohen was a good coach. I don't blame Cohen for the arm problems. Nobody could have foreseen that.
But to think Cohen shares no blame for the lack of offensive depth on this current team is a bizarre position to take.
So your stance is essentially that he had no idea any of these draft eligible guys from last year were going pro?
He was just blindsided and never had an opportunity to recruit accordingly?
Perfect storm indeed.

I see most of the decent baseball posters have already quit trying. We should nevAr miss the postseason down 20 players!!1! Coinz blew out the arms and made them all leave early!1

The worst part in all of this is having to hear Pat's coinz is the suk idea regurgitated into all eternity off an SEC championship and our first national seed.
 

KurtRambis4

Redshirt
Aug 30, 2006
15,926
0
36
To be fair, you'd

be hard-pressed to find any team experience what we have this season, and have a successful year.
 

benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh...
I'm not trying to take a hard line on this and I'm not trying to say we shouldn't see some loss in production.
But it isn't like we went from Great/really good to so-so/serviceable.
We went from great/really good to pretty bad.

The arms I can excuse. Some clown broke our whole staff and then ran off. Shame on him.
But to say "We lost so much to the draft" and not put any blame on the guy whose job it is to plan ahead and fill those gaps is ridiculous. Shame on...?

ETA: If this were a one time thing, I don't think you'd hear anything about it. I certainly wouldn't have any issues given what all is going on. But as I said previously, we always seem to be "rebuilding" or saying "wait 'til Player X gets here next year". It's just wearing thin.

be hard-pressed to find any team experience what we have this season, and have a successful year.
 
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engie

Sophomore
May 29, 2011
10,764
106
63
Are we the only team that loses people to the draft/injury ever year?
You are welcome to show me one that has ever lost 20 guys at once how we did. Just show me one period. Doesn't even have to be immediately successful.

Surely not. And if not, how do other teams handle it?
It's unprecedented.

If so, why does it happen to us?
We touched our voodoo doll in the wrong place, I guess.

Why are we always "rebuilding"?
We won the SEC last season and was a host and national seed.

How are Ole Miss and LSU always better than mediocre-bad?
No perfect storms there I guess.
The truth is -- you take away 7(now eight) arms -- and both of those teams would struggle about as bad as we are now. How do they not blow out arms? They don't hire Wes Johnson. That's the extreme error in all of this -- at least in how he perceived and used our program. Word is out about it in the baseball world as well. Talked to a couple scouts about it last week, who said he severely overworked guys during the season(not in pitch counts but in how they approached off days and conditioning) -- said specifically he tried to take a Dominican type approach where those guys throw a ton year round. Our guys weren't used to it for the most part -- threw a lot truly fatigued rather than just tired -- and the slough of injuries is the result of that. Basically pushing for fast results and the first train out of town rather than taking a controlled approach to building how he had done previously at DBU.

For the record, I think Cohen was a good coach. I don't blame Cohen for the arm problems. Nobody could have foreseen that.
I don't -- but I do. There had to be growing disconnect from the guys on the team to not see or hear the warning signs if it truly went down how the scout says it did. He hired him -- and everyone was pumped about the hire -- but it seems he gave him way too much leash without balancing it out. He gets at least some of the blame for all of those injuries since he made that hire and he didn't oversee the process well enough.

But to think Cohen shares no blame for the lack of offensive depth on this current team is a bizarre position to take. So your stance is essentially that he had no idea any of these draft eligible guys from last year were going pro?
Where did I say he shares no blame? I missed that part of the conversation. He got caught with his pants down in the ball change. MSU freaked out on him. He knew he had one year to fix it or face a scalding hot seat. He brought in a couple of elite JUCOs who lit the world on fire for one year. Surely he thought he'd get a couple of them back or they wouldn't be quite as good as they were -- and that the next crop of elite jucos could step into their place. Hell, we didn't know we were losing Kruger until way after the fact. None of the JUCOs are working out this year how Lowe and Kruger did last year. That's the difference in the lineup. And it's really not something you can evaluate in recruiting, lest they be just as good as those last two. The bright lights have to come on before you actually know on them. Which is why I hate going the JUCO route in the first place. Once you start -- you almost have to keep doing it. And cross your fingers that you keep getting lucky. You just add Kruger's bat to our lineup -- and this is an average or better offensive team. But, yes, he had consistently screwed up in high school hitter recruiting -- and misevaluated guys' intentions with the draft. Add any one of those elite HS guys we've lost late almost every year to this lineup -- and we're a whole different team. It doesn't excuse the fact -- but it's reality.

He was just blindsided and never had an opportunity to recruit accordingly?
Perfect storm indeed.
We have the talent on the hill to be one year away from competing for national titles again -- if it was all healthy and getting experience right now. The good news is that we aren't wasting another great pitching team on a poor hitting team like we did in 2012 and 2014. Those guys will all get redshirts and have leverage against the draft if they decide to use it. Of course, with our luck, most of them go just as they are getting healthy, and we never get anything out of them. I imagine Canni is going to have to have that talk with the guys with scholarships on the line, depending on their approach...
 
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benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
My point is: If your plan is to compete for years to come, you can't bring in a ton of Jucos and transfers and not have any idea that there's a possibility that they're one-and-done. And knowing that possibility exists you can't not have a contingency to replace those guys - which appears to be the case.

Now, if our plan all along was, paraphrasing Engie, "Let's do whatever we can to win now and see what happens down the road", then mission accomplished...I guess?

Again, as Engie hit on, if our plan was, "Next year, we've got the pitching to carry us" then I suppose we're right where we wanted to be with the team with the glaring exception of Wes Johnson's trail of tendon tears. I certainly don't agree with building a college baseball team around pitching, especially with the new ball, but there are a lot of people who make a lot more than I do that are paid to make those decisions.
 

KurtRambis4

Redshirt
Aug 30, 2006
15,926
0
36
But you said

players drafted AND injuries are no excuse, and I was just pointed out that nobody could overcome what we have had to endure, this season. Nobody.
 
Nov 12, 2007
26,200
10,358
113
Can someone tell me exactly which crystal ball Cohen was supposed to use to see losing this much in one year and plan accordingly?

I'm no apologizing for him or happy with what we have this season, but saying he should have seen ALL this coming and made plans to have an immediate remedy left for Cann to use is ridiculous.
 

KurtRambis4

Redshirt
Aug 30, 2006
15,926
0
36
Yes, you later

changed and said that, but you're initial post that I first responded to alluded to it being an invalid excuse, saying we had these ridiculous injuries and departures. That's what I responded to.
 

benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
Sorry. You're wrong. Check the posts to see which were edited.
Literally the only thing I edited in this entire thread was to add this to a post:
"ETA: If this were a one time thing, I don't think you'd hear anything about it. I certainly wouldn't have any issues given what all is going on. But as I said previously, we always seem to be "rebuilding" or saying "wait 'til Player X gets here next year". It's just wearing thin."

And that wasn't even in the original post.
My position has not changed.

changed and said that, but you're initial post that I first responded to alluded to it being an invalid excuse, saying we had these ridiculous injuries and departures. That's what I responded to.
 

KurtRambis4

Redshirt
Aug 30, 2006
15,926
0
36
If this isn't

Are we the only team that loses people to the draft/injury ever year?
Surely not. And if not, how do other teams handle it?
If so, why does it happen to us?

stating that our current situation is no excuse, essentially, then I must just be really bad at reading.
 

benatmsu

Junior
May 28, 2007
2,420
288
83
Maybe not a problem with reading.
Maybe a problem reading into something what you want to read into it.
I literally said in the same unedited post that I don't blame Cohen for the arm injuries, but we'll just gloss over that I guess.
I was really making a point to say that both of those issues contribute to the current state.
One was unavoidable in a sense (but that's another issue), the other was, at the very least possible to mitigate the damage done.

But hey, read into it what you want to read into it.
This has gone on long enough, and I'm really just not that passionate about it.


View attachment 6378
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
61,325
33,037
113
Unfortunately, Cohen has earned a lot of that criticism. We're not down 20 players either. We're down maybe 7. Everybody has players drafted. It's the coach's job to have guys lined up to replace them. And the injuries appear for all the world to be because of the previous pitching coach that Cohen hired (either that or it really is just an incredible coincidence on the magnitude of winning the PowerBall lottery. He's had a couple of real good seasons. But he's had far too many disastrous ones. When Cohen got here, we had had 1 losing season in nearly 40 years. Granted it was the season before he got here, but in the 9 years since he got here, we've had 3 losing seasons so far and are well on our way to #4. There's simply no excuse to be that bad, that often, in the down years.
 
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