Banner for Cal too?

[Lord Z]

People are seriously understating the talent on some of Tubby's teams. He fielded some great UK teams and he was a terrific bench coach and a defensive machine. Probably 2 of the better defensive teams in UK history.

What got Tubby was he was too loyal to his assistants and allowed too many on the gravy train plus Tubby disdained recruiting. I think out of every UK coach in history Tubby would have made the best NBA coach. Travesty he didn't get a shot at it, IMO. It would have played perfectly into his strengths as a coach.

 

[kgargus]

No they weren't but they were very talented and also extremely experienced.

And one of my favorite teams !!

 

[Louis_Skunt]

How many loaded teams has Cal had to work with? Based on the results, obviously it takes more than just loaded teams to win championships. How many loaded Duke teams went without championships? If you don't like Tubby just say so, but you don't have to make up crap. I see the three coaches like this:
Recruiting: Cal #1, RP #2, Tubby #3
Coaching: RP #1, Tubby #2, Cal #3
BS: Cal #1, RP #2, Tubby #3
Great Person: Tubby #1, Cal #2, RP #3

I'm not talking about Cal, the conversation was about Tubby.

So again, would Tubby have a title if Pitino didnt leave him that roster?

 

[Louis_Skunt]

Tubby could coach! I remember a turning point in one season, the second half against Vandy, the defense was a thing of beauty. He put a few guys in the league on D alone nearly, Tubby's problem was never Coaching, it was two fold, he refused to recruit AAU stars, he thought the next tier could win him enough. Second, he was loyal to his assistants, he needed to pull a Cal and over haul his assistants, but he wouldn't do that. That led to his downfall. If he had a recruiter, hell he may still be here

It was coaching. Pitino could take a team full of 2 star players and make them title contenders. Tubby can have Rondo, Prince, Bogans, Estil, Fitch, Hawkins (all different years) and not even crack the top 25.
You know why its coaching? Cause the man is at High point with a level playing field and he still sucks.

 

[LmdCat]

I'm not talking about Cal, the conversation was about Tubby.

So again, would Tubby have a title if Pitino didnt leave him that roster?

The conversation is about whatever two or more people want to discuss. Would RP have had the players he needed for success if UK wasn't considered a top basketball program before he arrived?

 

[sambowieshin_rivals]

I'm not talking about Cal, the conversation was about Tubby.

So again, would Tubby have a title if Pitino didnt leave him that roster?

Was the roster in 98 as talented as Cal's 2015 roster? Cal didn't get a title that year. Would Tubby have won with that roster?
Would Tubby have won with the 97 roster?
Who knows the answer to any of those questions and who cares?
Fact.....Tubby was the coach in 98 and won a title.

 

[ruppcat]

'98 team won it all because they were killer in crunch time especially Scott Padgett who could not miss a 3 with less than 5 minutes left in the game. So once they played more of Tubby's style which was ball line defense and pounding it into the paint half court offense, it opened up the perimeter for those shooters late in the game and after that teams didn't know how to defend them and rolling out of the SEC tournament they were on fire. Tubby did that. It was his system not Rick's pressing, jacking up threes, and trapping that did it. That was long gone. It is delirious to think Rick would have won it all with that team and that was at least part of why he bailed. Rick thought that team was a loser.

I seem to remember Turner hounding Wojo and the Utah guards.

 

[Lord Z]

I seem to remember Turner hounding Wojo and the Utah guards.

I seem to remember Cliff Hawkins hounding everyone's guards. I guess Rick recruited and handed him to Tubby, too.

Look, why is everyone so vested in discrediting Tubby? I don't get it? He guided a so-so UK team to a National Championship then he brought in several great teams before ultimately failing because he was too loyal to in retrospect what looks like a subpar staff, definitely a Strength and Conditioning coach that was taking it easy, and it all wound up turning into a stagnant program with a lot of people riding the gravy train and so it was time for Tubby to go.

That doesn't mean the man couldn't coach because he could. That doesn't mean Tubby doesn't deserve the credit for guiding the team to the National Championship in '98 because he does. Why can't we accept the good and the bad that came with Tubby's tenure and leave it at that? I don't get this incessant need to completely discredit him?

 

[ruppcat]

I seem to remember Cliff Hawkins hounding everyone's guards. I guess Rick recruited and handed him to Tubby, too.

Look, why is everyone so vested in discrediting Tubby? I don't get it? He guided a so-so UK team to a National Championship then he brought in several great teams before ultimately failing because he was too loyal to in retrospect what looks like a subpar staff, definitely a Strength and Conditioning coach that was taking it easy, and it all wound up turning into a stagnant program with a lot of people riding the gravy train and so it was time for Tubby to go.

That doesn't mean the man couldn't coach because he could. That doesn't mean Tubby doesn't deserve the credit for guiding the team to the National Championship in '98 because he does. Why can't we accept the good and the bad that came with Tubby's tenure and leave it at that? I don't get this incessant need to completely discredit him?

"...before ultimately failing because he was too loyal to in retrospect what looks like a subpar staff, definitely a Strength and Conditioning coach that was taking it easy, and it all wound up turning into a stagnant program with a lot of people riding the gravy train..."

You just described many of the issues people had with Tubby.

IF he'd gotten two of the E8 teams to the F4 it may be a different conversation.

But people were picking up, and I'd say during Team Turmoil and the three 10 loss seasons in years 3-5, after a 28-9 season in year two, something wasn't cooking right at UK. And as one poster noted, "we're gonna run more this year" combined with what many were complaining about the recruiting, starting Saul, etc, and it became the perfect storm.

UK fans were expecting Pitino style seasons where only two seasons had seven losses post probation. He only had one double digit loss season that being his first year ending 14-14.

Tubby played what many called "plow ball" as compared to Pitino's up and down, pressing, three point style which averaged around 87 pts vs 75 for Tubby's system.

Can Tubby Coach? His record at Tulsa and UGA, though at UGA he inherited a number of the players, propelled him to the eyes of Kentucky. As I've said before, when Pitino left, Tubby was the guy I wanted. I thought given his success at Tulsa and UGA, he'd clean up at UK.

What some call discrediting Tubby others call evaluating his overall record objectively.

Recall, fans were beginning to call for Hall's head after the 84 failure to reach the title game.

BCG didn't last long as it was very evident he was the wrong hire.

Cal is going to be evaluated in the same manner. IF you've read this board last seaon Cal took some pretty hot heat....deservedly so at 9-16 with supposedly a great recruiting class. He pulls another season like this and that seat is going to be scalding.

You don't see Pitino getting a lot of love because of his mess at Little Brother and some of his antics there and how he behaved at Rupp and he's pretty lily white.

So see, UK fans evaluate their coaches fairly and objectively.

 

[Lord Z]

"...before ultimately failing because he was too loyal to in retrospect what looks like a subpar staff, definitely a Strength and Conditioning coach that was taking it easy, and it all wound up turning into a stagnant program with a lot of people riding the gravy train..."

You just described many of the issues people had with Tubby.

IF he'd gotten two of the E8 teams to the F4 it may be a different conversation.

But people were picking up, and I'd say during Team Turmoil and the three 10 loss seasons in years 3-5, after a 28-9 season in year two, something wasn't cooking right at UK. And as one poster noted, "we're gonna run more this year" combined with what many were complaining about the recruiting, starting Saul, etc, and it became the perfect storm.

UK fans were expecting Pitino style seasons where only two seasons had seven losses post probation. He only had one double digit loss season that being his first year ending 14-14.

Tubby played what many called "plow ball" as compared to Pitino's up and down, pressing, three point style which averaged around 87 pts vs 75 for Tubby's system.

Can Tubby Coach? His record at Tulsa and UGA, though at UGA he inherited a number of the players, propelled him to the eyes of Kentucky. As I've said before, when Pitino left, Tubby was the guy I wanted. I thought given his success at Tulsa and UGA, he'd clean up at UK.

What some call discrediting Tubby others call evaluating his overall record objectively.

Recall, fans were beginning to call for Hall's head after the 84 failure to reach the title game.

BCG didn't last long as it was very evident he was the wrong hire.

Cal is going to be evaluated in the same manner. IF you've read this board last seaon Cal took some pretty hot heat....deservedly so at 9-16 with supposedly a great recruiting class. He pulls another season like this and that seat is going to be scalding.

You don't see Pitino getting a lot of love because of his mess at Little Brother and some of his antics there and how he behaved at Rupp and he's pretty lily white.

So see, UK fans evaluate their coaches fairly and objectively.

Look, I was a diehard member of Dynasty Defenders back in the day. I knew it was time for Tubby to go. That doesn't take away what he accomplished while he was here no more than it does take away what he failed at and ultimately led to his departure.

Winning a National Championship is so hard to do that it defies credibility to say Tubby doesn't deserve the credit for winning the NC in '98.

 

[Panthur]

I’d be okay with Cal getting one.

He’s somewhat below Pitino in my estimation.

My personal calculation runs:

—They are = on championships
—They are equal on NR-U
—Cal has more FFs
—They both saved our brand….
—But Cal saved our brand from a more dire situation. Yes probation sucked and the emory envelope was a black eye publicly whether it really happened (unlikely) or not. But in ‘89 we were still THE program—just with a black cloud. Not every kid wants to be Roy Rogers. That particular black cloud was a limited threat to us. By the time Cal signed here we were essentially a JOKE to every recruit. Cal changed that all by himself so his “saving us” was a little more impressive imo.
—But Cal also spent 5+ years driving our brand down from the height he took it to. That story’s unfinished and I’m hopeful, but the bare fact is Pitino consistently raised our brand every single year he was here except for a brief plateau in 94 and 95.
—Pitino was very largely responsible for a second title: all 98 players with title minutes and by Tubby’s own words those kids chose Rick’s system over Tubby’s from the beginning and it brought us another title.

So to my mind Cal is a little below Rick in terms of what he’s done for us all told. But not far enough below that one should have his banner and one shouldn’t imo.

 

[Seth_C]

But Tubby doesn't. Honestly kinda ridiculous.

It isn’t ridiculous. The school hung a banner for Pitino because he left college basketball, only to have him return to our rival and then bring shame on himself. The lesson was learned.

Tubby, on the other hand, has never quit coaching college basketball. When he retires, I’m confident he will be honored at Rupp. Not until then. It’s his choice when to retire.

Rupp didn’t have a banner hung while he was coaching at another school. Hall didn’t have a banner hung when he was coaching at another school. Pitino didn’t have a banner hung while he was coaching at another school. Tubby has always been coaching at another school since he left Kentucky. You get the idea.

 

[JC CATS]

It was coaching. Pitino could take a team full of 2 star players and make them title contenders. Tubby can have Rondo, Prince, Bogans, Estil, Fitch, Hawkins (all different years) and not even crack the top 25.
You know why its coaching? Cause the man is at High point with a level playing field and he still sucks.

People clasim Cal sucks, but he can recruit. I would say the old adage it's the Jimmy and the Joes, not the X's and the O's

 

[Louis_Skunt]

The conversation is about whatever two or more people want to discuss. Would RP have had the players he needed for success if UK wasn't considered a top basketball program before he arrived?

Like a little kid who cant admit breaking windows, always dodging the questions by bringing in others.

You know it to be true, no way does Tubs win a title without Pitinos left overs from back to back title games.

 

[ruppcat]

Like a little kid who cant admit breaking windows, always dodging the questions by bringing in others.

You know it to be true, no way does Tubs win a title without Pitinos left overs from back to back title games.

IF he'd taken one of his teams to the F4 and possibly won another title at UK, or even another team he's coached to the F4 the argument he won with Pitino's players will forever be the asterisk after his name.

He was the coach on the bench when the title was won...he gets credit for that. He'd have even more credit if he'd gotten one of his recruited teams to the F4 and/or title game.

 

[LASTUKMGR69]

It was coaching. Pitino could take a team full of 2 star players and make them title contenders. Tubby can have Rondo, Prince, Bogans, Estil, Fitch, Hawkins (all different years) and not even crack the top 25.
You know why its coaching? Cause the man is at High point with a level playing field and he still sucks.

You are a Tubby hater too bad you don’t know him as a person your loss

 

[LmdCat]

Like a little kid who cant admit breaking windows, always dodging the questions by bringing in others.

You know it to be true, no way does Tubs win a title without Pitinos left overs from back to back title games.

You speak as if though you can prove your theory. All you have is an opinion which means nothing. You need to get over yourself. Winning NCs is more than simply having a lot of talent and there is more evidence to support this supposition than your wild a$$ theory. You make about as much sense as suggesting that a person who can't drive can win a car race if he has a fast car.

 

[ruppcat]

You speak as if though you can prove your theory. All you have is an opinion which means nothing. You need to get over yourself. Winning NCs is more than simply having a lot of talent and there is more evidence to support this supposition than your wild a$$ theory. You make about as much sense as suggesting that a person who can't drive can win a car race if he has a fast car.

Here's the proof.

In his entire coaching tenure, Tubby has only been to the F4 and one title game once.

He has not been to the F4 with a team he recruited.

That's the difference in this conversation between Tubby being a good coach or a great coach.

 

[LmdCat]

Here's the proof.

In his entire coaching tenure, Tubby has only been to the F4 and one title game once.

He has not been to the F4 with a team he recruited.

That's the difference in this conversation between Tubby being a good coach or a great coach.

You are still not addressing the fact that winning NCs take more than just a talented team. Tubby won just as many national titles at UK as Cal. That isn't a theory; it is a fact!

 

[ruppcat]

You are still not addressing the fact that winning NCs take more than just a talented team. Tubby won just as many national titles at UK as Cal. That isn't a theory; it is a fact!

But the simple fact is Cal won it with players he recruited, Pitino won with players he recruited as did Rupp and Hall. Tubby is the only coach to win a NT with players recruited by another coach.

Both Cal and Pitino have played for other titles.

Tubby cannot make that claim nor can he claim additional F4s.

That's the difference in this conversation between Tubby being a good coach or a great coach.

 

[LmdCat]

But the simple fact is Cal won it with players he recruited, Pitino won with players he recruited as did Rupp and Hall. Tubby is the only coach to win a NT with players recruited by another coach.

Both Cal and Pitino have played for other titles.

Tubby cannot make that claim nor can he claim additional F4s.

That's the difference in this conversation between Tubby being a good coach or a great coach.

He doesn't need to make that claim. The only claim he needs to make is that he has won as many NCs at UK as Cal. There is no asterisk by his NC stating that they were not his recruited players. No matter how much that might upset you, it is a fact.

When considering Cal and Tubby, the only one with an asterisk is Cal. The college basketball world believes that Cal has cheated throughout his coaching career.

You either win a title or you don't. Only the fans of the losing team remembers who played for a title and didn't win it.