Backup 4 spot
- Thread starter jerzeyguy
- Start date
Aside from Harper, who will likely start at the 4....
- Palmquist. 6-8/210 when he was announced on sk.com, and hopefully will put on a bit more weight with a college level S&C regimen. Looks like he also has the ability to shoot from outside, which will allow us to stretch out from the paint and give Johnson more room to operate.
- Reiber. 6-10/230 according to sk.com at his signing, but other sites have him shorter/lighter. Will be interesting to see what his official measurements are in the fall. Also apparently can apparently shoot the ball, and would give us great size if he's in the game along with Johnson or Omoruyi at the center spot.
- Omoruyi. 6-10/230.... may see some time at the 4 if his performance on the court demands more minutes than the 10-15 available behind Johnson.
- Mag. 6-7/215... not out of the question that he'd get some time at the 4 if he can bulk up a bit.
- Palmquist. 6-8/210 when he was announced on sk.com, and hopefully will put on a bit more weight with a college level S&C regimen. Looks like he also has the ability to shoot from outside, which will allow us to stretch out from the paint and give Johnson more room to operate.
- Reiber. 6-10/230 according to sk.com at his signing, but other sites have him shorter/lighter. Will be interesting to see what his official measurements are in the fall. Also apparently can apparently shoot the ball, and would give us great size if he's in the game along with Johnson or Omoruyi at the center spot.
- Omoruyi. 6-10/230.... may see some time at the 4 if his performance on the court demands more minutes than the 10-15 available behind Johnson.
- Mag. 6-7/215... not out of the question that he'd get some time at the 4 if he can bulk up a bit.
Am I alone in thinking RHJ shouldn't be our starting 4? I'd much rather have him at the 3.
Alot could go wrong, especially with no depth behind him. Banging with 4's for 20+ minutes a night, could wear on him, plus maybe early foul trouble. Really wish we added a 4 grand transfer. Someone like Fred Scott from Rider would've been nice
Omoruyi will definitely get a lot more time than some people think here. He can get time at the 4 and he will start at the 5 at some point.
It depends on the matchups. I see our frontcourt as Harper, Caleb, Palmquist, and Mag. I think Reiber redshirts. If the other team plays two bigs, Omoruyi can play the 4 in relief of Harper or with Harper at the 3. Remember we played many different lineups, even with 4 guards at times. I've been rewatching our games and Caleb has been very impressive rebounding, defending, and with 50/50 balls.
I’m less worried about this. Kwas held up just fine playing primarily at the 4, and Ron has an extra 15 pounds on Kwas. Ron has also been pretty good about avoiding foul trouble, and unless I’m blanking, I don’t think there are really very many dominant 4s in the conference that we would need to worry about all that much.
The big questions for me re: the newcomers:
1. Defense.
How quickly and well do they gel with Pike's defensive approach will in large part determine their minutes. Palmquist has a leg up here because he's been with the program since January and got to practice with the team before the pandemic shutdown everything. There's been a lot of noise about Mag being strong defensively out of the gate, too. Definitely a concern on whether summer sessions will start on time (or start at all), and what the team practice situation will look like for the summer to get these guys up to speed defensively and with S&C.
2. How good can Omoruyi be out of the gate?
Johnson will almost certainly be seeing 25-28 minutes at the center spot, leaving just 12-15 minutes in reserve for center depth. If Omoruyi's abilities demand more court time than that, we may very well see him getting minutes alongside Johnson at the 4, while still having a 3rd option in reserve for foul trouble minutes a the 5 (Doucoure, and possibly Reiber).
3. Will Reiber redshirt?
I know a lot of people feel that he will, or that he should, but there's no way to know what his performance (or even measurables) will be until he gets on campus. Definitely an "available minutes" question here with a lot of bodies competing at the 4/5 spots, but he may come in strong and push for minutes.... which could allow Harper more minutes at the 3, but also allow Omoruyi more minutes at the 4 if he can hold down the backup minutes at center (which would also give Harper more minutes at the 3). Or he could redshirt and develop during practice and in the weight room. Time will tell.
1. Defense.
How quickly and well do they gel with Pike's defensive approach will in large part determine their minutes. Palmquist has a leg up here because he's been with the program since January and got to practice with the team before the pandemic shutdown everything. There's been a lot of noise about Mag being strong defensively out of the gate, too. Definitely a concern on whether summer sessions will start on time (or start at all), and what the team practice situation will look like for the summer to get these guys up to speed defensively and with S&C.
2. How good can Omoruyi be out of the gate?
Johnson will almost certainly be seeing 25-28 minutes at the center spot, leaving just 12-15 minutes in reserve for center depth. If Omoruyi's abilities demand more court time than that, we may very well see him getting minutes alongside Johnson at the 4, while still having a 3rd option in reserve for foul trouble minutes a the 5 (Doucoure, and possibly Reiber).
3. Will Reiber redshirt?
I know a lot of people feel that he will, or that he should, but there's no way to know what his performance (or even measurables) will be until he gets on campus. Definitely an "available minutes" question here with a lot of bodies competing at the 4/5 spots, but he may come in strong and push for minutes.... which could allow Harper more minutes at the 3, but also allow Omoruyi more minutes at the 4 if he can hold down the backup minutes at center (which would also give Harper more minutes at the 3). Or he could redshirt and develop during practice and in the weight room. Time will tell.
Kwasi is 3 yrs older -- and he had Ron their to spare him. It was a great situation. I think Ron can handle the 4 - just don't like it being strictly on him now. Cliff will probably float between the 4 & 5 and maybe Mag is ready. But the B10 is a long season and we can't afford to wear Ron down
There aren't many teams that play two true "bigs" anymore in this age of positionless basketball. Harper and Yeboah basically were interchangeable at the 3 and 4 last year, probably spending equal time on the perimeter as in the paint.
The real issue isn't so much a "backup 4" but rather who will replace Yeboah's minutes, leadership and production. We have to hope McConnell can step up, and/or that Palmquist, Reiber and/or Mag are ready to contribute.
If there is any concern with having bigger guys at the "4," the answer will be that Cliff will probably play together with Myles for short stretches.
The real issue isn't so much a "backup 4" but rather who will replace Yeboah's minutes, leadership and production. We have to hope McConnell can step up, and/or that Palmquist, Reiber and/or Mag are ready to contribute.
If there is any concern with having bigger guys at the "4," the answer will be that Cliff will probably play together with Myles for short stretches.
The prob
The problem with playing RHJ at the 3 is we dont have a another 4 that can shoot. They can’t only have 3 shooters on the floor for long stretches of time. Pike has been playing basically 3 tall guards and RHJ at the 4. It’s a bit of position-less basketball but the key is to have 4 shooters on the floor.
We had a few on the schedule this year where we'd have two 6-8 or better guys on the floor consistently. Don't know what next year will bring yet.
Purdue: Wiliiams (21.5 min, 6-9/270), Haarms (20.5 min, 7-3/250), Wheeler (17.8 min, 6-9/205), Boudreaux (17.0 min, 6-8/220)
Michigan: Wagner (30.8 min, 6-8/205), Teske (27.9 min, 7-1/265), Johns (19.5 min, 6-8/235), Davis (10.7 min, 6-8/25), Castleton (7.9 min, 6-11/235)
Iowa: Garza (32.0 min, 6-11/260), Kriener (18.3 min, 6-10/255), Pemsl (12.7 min, 6-9/248)
PSU: Stevens (31.1 min, 6-8/225), Watkins (21.0 min, 6-9/254), Harrar (17.0 min, 6-9/240)
??????
How the heck would you know that?
So many new faces.
Long offseason.
so many different things can happen. This is a message board so one can guess, but I wouldn’t at this stage say someone needs to redshirt.
bottom line is there are 200 minutes and I think a high quantity of guys that should earn minutes. Pike will figure it out. If there isnt a “prototype backup 4” you can go small for 8-16 minutes Ron sits and/or you can play Cliff AND Myles for 2-6 minutes.
Hopefully im wrong and he doesn't need one. But after watching actual games, and not just his highlights.. Idk how anyone can see him as anything other than a redshirt.
We needed a grad transfer last year to compensate for the fact that this was a young team with a core that was constituted of sophomores. Yeboah provided the steady veteran presence in games and got smart buckets when we needed to keep runs going or when we needed to stop an opposing team’s run. Next year our core is older and should have the experience from this past season’s battles to do what needs to be done without yeboah anymore.
plus the team loses few minutes with the departure of a backup big (Carter) and a big wing (AY). Yeboah averaged 24 minutes and Carter averaged 12. Yeboah averaged 10 points per game and Carter averaged 4.
and the team brings in 4 new players. All of them are bigs or big wings. Plus I’m sure McConnell is going to want more minutes as well as Mulcahy.
This team doesn’t need a 1990s basketball power forward. Pike seems to focusing on getting wing players who are willing rebounders.
RHJ, McConnell, Mag, OP can be on the floor together in the 3 and 4 positions. They, along with the guards and Omoruyi, will distribute the 36 minutes and 14 points.
Mag is going to get minutes. He reminds me Eugene Omoruyi in his sophomore year when he was a great team player and low post player. Mag is a good athlete.
Oscar is older and has a year with the program. Plus he should be a shooter.
unless Reiber beats out duc for the 3rd string center minutes then he will redshirt
What actual games did you go to that make you think he needs a redshirt...just curious.
why? We lost 2 frontcourt players and added 4!
Where are the minutes going? Here is how i distribute the 200 a game
Center
Myles = 23...same as last year...it works
Cliff = 15...maybe this is too few?
Duc = 2...probably gets a few minutes in certain games when both are in foul trouble
Reiber = Redshirt. Not enough minutes. Why not give this guy a year to develop? It worked for Myles.
3/4
Mcconnell = 22...he averaged a lopsided 21 this past season...he's gonna want more minutes
Oscar = see below
Mag = see below
RHJ = 28...just like this past season
Combo guards
Mulcahy = 20...he averaged 18 this past season
Young = 22...he averaged 21 this past season
Geo = 29...what he averaged this past season...no need for him to play over 30 and be fatigued in games and later in the season
Mathis = 23...he averaged 21 this past season
So there are 184 minutes split up right there with Oscar and Mag getting 16 of the remaining minutes. Maybe I am lowballing some of the minutes some of the other guys are going to want. The roster has 12 guys and we have learned that Pike is like many coaches and doesn't want a full roster of 13 scholarship players with minutes to distribute. We know that as the season progresses the minutes tighten up and coach is going to go with the proven players. I will be shocked if Mag, Oscar and Reiber all do not redshirt. Reiber's role is filled by all of the other players on the roster. It makes no sense to have him take minutes from the veteran players who are most likely better than him at this point.
Oscar and Mag have to earn these 16 minutes too. If they don't deserve them, that's going to be really troubling. They both bring length and athleticism (especially for Mag) at the 3/4 position and we only have RHJ and McConnell in that position and they need breathers every game. So they are much needed reinforcements in a position that has minutes that need to be filled.
W have 4 guys who can play the "4". The roster is set.
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Seems to me we have a glut of promising players competing for minutes at the 4, and all of them can shoot 3s.
My bet is that Mulcahy beefs up. He had to play down low quite a bit... hmmm.. anyone know who D's up RHJ in practice and how they do? Of course, we've seen PM take his eye off his man looking to poach the ball... so he needs some work on D.
PM will be getting a little taller and put on more weight.. if the CDC charts can be believed..
PM will be getting a little taller and put on more weight.. if the CDC charts can be believed..
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The strength of the roster allows for what i call "inflated" stats. That means despite what people may want to believe or rewind the tape of most of our games, the system, not the players determined the production.
I know Baker's shooting percentage is impacted because he's the focal point of teams game plan, just in the same way, Mulcahy has a much higher shooting percentage.
Palmquist will play in the catch and shoot, Yeboah role. We didn't run a lot of plays designed specifically for Yeboah like we did for Harper, Baker or Myles Johnson in spots. Oskar, Mag should find plenty of open looks, because you have to focus on Baker, Harper and now Cliff and Myles at the 5. There will be spacing for both to make shots.
The question about Reiber isn't about ability or fit or talent. This roster doesn't have a 5 man, who can defend in the paint on defense against a traditional big (Kofi Cockburn, Luka Garza, Matt Haarms, Jon Teske) AND have the ability on offense to set a screen for our guards near the 3 point line, turn and catch a pass and shoot or dribble to make a drive, pass or score.
Every good team in the B1G has that big who is 6'8 to 6'10, and is always the 4th or 5th option on offense, but finds open 3s or long 2s against us, because our bigs are more post and pick and roll to the rim for dunks.
Reiber against the rosters like Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, Maryland, Indiana etc, has to be able to make the opposition not just camp out in the paint or cut off our driving lanes for our guards because they don't have to worry about Myles, Shaq Carter Doucoure or now Cliff, taking a 15 to 18 footer.
You have to be able to match up against your opponents for 40 minutes and if that means Cliff or Myles aren't the right match up for 5 to 7 minutes a game, then someone has to close that loop on possessions.
It is like the 3rd or 4th Cornerback in football. You probably don't need it for some games vs Michigan State, Iowa or Wisconsin in football, but will need that match up vs Syracuse, Maryland, Purdue where teams spread the field and just attack the weakest defender who is weakest in space and coverage.
If we can get by with Palmquist and Mag and Reiber redshirts, then it says Cliff is drastically different and faster, quicker on defense against opposing bigs (which i expect him to be) ....there's also games I expect foul trouble and it's either Reiber or Doucoure.
I know Baker's shooting percentage is impacted because he's the focal point of teams game plan, just in the same way, Mulcahy has a much higher shooting percentage.
Palmquist will play in the catch and shoot, Yeboah role. We didn't run a lot of plays designed specifically for Yeboah like we did for Harper, Baker or Myles Johnson in spots. Oskar, Mag should find plenty of open looks, because you have to focus on Baker, Harper and now Cliff and Myles at the 5. There will be spacing for both to make shots.
The question about Reiber isn't about ability or fit or talent. This roster doesn't have a 5 man, who can defend in the paint on defense against a traditional big (Kofi Cockburn, Luka Garza, Matt Haarms, Jon Teske) AND have the ability on offense to set a screen for our guards near the 3 point line, turn and catch a pass and shoot or dribble to make a drive, pass or score.
Every good team in the B1G has that big who is 6'8 to 6'10, and is always the 4th or 5th option on offense, but finds open 3s or long 2s against us, because our bigs are more post and pick and roll to the rim for dunks.
Reiber against the rosters like Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, Maryland, Indiana etc, has to be able to make the opposition not just camp out in the paint or cut off our driving lanes for our guards because they don't have to worry about Myles, Shaq Carter Doucoure or now Cliff, taking a 15 to 18 footer.
You have to be able to match up against your opponents for 40 minutes and if that means Cliff or Myles aren't the right match up for 5 to 7 minutes a game, then someone has to close that loop on possessions.
It is like the 3rd or 4th Cornerback in football. You probably don't need it for some games vs Michigan State, Iowa or Wisconsin in football, but will need that match up vs Syracuse, Maryland, Purdue where teams spread the field and just attack the weakest defender who is weakest in space and coverage.
If we can get by with Palmquist and Mag and Reiber redshirts, then it says Cliff is drastically different and faster, quicker on defense against opposing bigs (which i expect him to be) ....there's also games I expect foul trouble and it's either Reiber or Doucoure.
I’m not sure why Palmquist would redshirt as he spent much of last season working with the team. Maybe I’m thinking something wrong but he will hopefully be somewhat ready next season???
I really would like a 5th year “Yeboah Clone”
Behind RHJ
Last year...Myles was the guy who could not afford an injury
This year ...it’s RHJ.
We need another guys there in case Palmquist isn’t ready or is more suited to the three spot
Then...hopefully we get Patterson to come in behind RHJ for the following year as the stretch four
Behind RHJ
Last year...Myles was the guy who could not afford an injury
This year ...it’s RHJ.
We need another guys there in case Palmquist isn’t ready or is more suited to the three spot
Then...hopefully we get Patterson to come in behind RHJ for the following year as the stretch four
There is perennial concern about depth in virtually every college hoops program. Maybe Kansas, KU, Dook, et al, but for everyone else---"What if injuries; foul trouble; whatever???" This type of post is prevalent on this board multiple times a season, and we had posters questioning our offense; our defense; our rotations--as though they were there for every practice and coaches skull session. We even had some intruders from other schools come in to question stuff--like why Peter Kiss wasn't playing, for example. In the end, our coaching staff must have done just a few things right, right?
Palmquist is 6'8. Mag is a muscular 6'7. And MCconnell and coach probably see that his minutes are best suited in the frontcourt now that we have Geo and Mulcahy along with Young in the "PG" spot.
What 4’s can shoot on the team? We have a lot of 3’s that might have to play 4. Palmquist is unproven and needs to put on weight to defend a 4, but will probably have to play there for stretches if he is ready.
Obviously the new people coming in are unproven. But all of the players competing for minutes at the 4 have shooting the 3 as part of their game. Harper, Reiber, Palmquist, Mag, McConnell. Omoruyi, at the 5, for example, does not have shooting the 3 as part of his game. If you are talking about "proven" players, as in proven at the college level, then we only have Harper and McConnell, and both are shooters. Any way you spin it, all of the players we have competing at the 4, and we have many, are shooters.
I’m just saying that with Johnson and Cliff in the floor it will be difficult to spread the floor. They will definitely play together during stretches but it’s not an ideal set up in today’s game. Reiber is a 4 but not a proven shooter. Palmquist can shoot but unknown if he can defend a 4. Mag and McConnell are really suited for 2-3. All that being said, I expect Pike to mix it up a lot. Harper and Yeboah played 90% of the 4’s minutes last year. Harper will start at the 4 and I expect Cliff to mix in at 4 and 5 right away. Given Johnson’s foul trouble, I expect Cliff to play 70% of his time at the 5. It all depends on which freshman steps up. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mag plays the 4 for long stretches considering his defensive abilities. Palmquist is likely to play there but again no one know how he’s going to perform.
While there might be some limited situations where Omoruyi will play at the same time as Johnson/Docure, he is a 5. Not a 4. True center. All of the kids who are competing for minutes at the 4 are shooters. I think it's safe to say that our team is now clearly emphasizing shooters at the 4.
Just getting back to your original post on this, you said that we didn't have any shooters at the 4 behind Harper. We have 4 promising players that will be in an intense battle for limited minutes at the 4, and all are shooters. Yes, three of them will be freshmen, but that's how college ball works. Having three freshmen players coming in, all of whom are shooters, to compete with McConnell who is a shooter, for backup minutes at the 4, is a glut of shooters competing to back up Harper at the 4. You should just retract your original comment.
So, I was looking up Palmquist on the Swedish U-20 National Team, and he was listed as a 6-3 forward in July 2019. And he was 6-8 when he signed in November? One of those two numbers isn't right.
Bigs tend to do better with foul trouble as upperclassmen and become better at positioning, footwork, body control, and judgement. Hopefully as a RS Jr, Johnson will start to pick up fewer fouls and will see the floor for 25-28 min/game. In games last year where Johnson played at least 25 min, he averaged 9.4 pts, 9.4 rbs, 1.3 ast, 1.1 tov, 1.7 blk, 2.2 pf
What decent 4 wants to come to play 15 minutes and be a back up?
Yeboah was a special situation because he had a prior relationship with Pikiell.
With the quantity of new bodies coming in I will take my chances that at least 1 will surprise to the upside.