Additional Perspective

[jellyman_rivals307848]

Again, not saying Jordan is the solution ... not syaing he is not the solution. But to those who simply KNOW he has failed, partly because of inability to develop players (a refrain), or change to new defensive or offensive sets during this season, to adapt to changing game plans, different opponents, etc.:

Here is another note, from Jordan's post-game interview: The team has not even had enough players to practice, Jordan basically said. Tough to improve defensive and offensive sets with just low-impact walk-throughs ... which is basically what the team is limited to.

He was asked how the team might be affected with a relatively short turnaround with a Saturday road game, due to the 3OT and high energy game they just played. Jordan said it should not be a problem, since the team has not been able to do anything but low-impact practices: Some drills (I think he specifically mentioned passing and shooting, and some other drills), and some Five on Zero walk-throughs, is basically all they have been able to do because of the injuries. He said ordinarily the coaching staff would not worry about injuries during practices - you just practice hard. But he said the reality of this season is that they HAVE to concern themselves with injuries in practice, and that has put real limits on practice.

Remember, that in addition to the players out now (and those who had been out or limited - Laurent for 3 weeks, Freeman for a week or so was limited due to his ankle, though he kept playing), I bet Lewis is extremely limited in practice - have to save him for the games.

For those who complain that the players have not improved enough during the season, that the sets have not improved, etc. ... MAYBE at least SOME of that is the inability to actually run proper practices to to the injuries. Maybe - not surely, but maybe?

And if you cannot run full-speed practices, how does that hurt game prep?

 

[shields]

Joe Boylan said that they are afraid to have another player get hurt in practice, so again low impact practice.

 

[DocRU]

Jelly: I agree. Tough to fire the guy after a season like this. Especially a favorite son. Which puts our new AD in an awkward spot if he chooses to stay the course. Because that's lose lose. Contract extension or Year 4 with no extension? Fans revolt vs. stifling recruiting.
Of course the team playing better down the stretch will help. And Hobbs can point to 3 new recruits who will help in the depth department if nothing else. But can Freeman's knee hold up for an entire season? And the big men with the foot fractures. There's no guarantee both will not have chronic injuries. (see that Sixer's center). A tough spot indeed.

 

[Knightmoves]

IMO there's an old saying that is appropriate at this point for RU MBB:

"Excuses never loses."

It boggles my mind that so many RU fans want to support a 6 win/ 0 win B1G coach in year 3 of his watch.

 

[bac2therac]

I agree with you Knightmoves

Jordan also said they don't do rebounding drills

all I can go on is 5-32 against D1 opponents and 25 straight Big 10 conference losses in the Big 10 in 15 years and more 25 point plus losses than Littlepage had in his tenure...if the season ends 6-26/0-18 with 42 losses in 47 games against D1 opponents, its not very hard to see what should happen..and people who think he should be gone hardly are out to lunch and lacking perspective if this does happen

 

[shields]

BAC, you don't like Jordan we get that. But have heard several announcers say very difficult to practice with so few players.

 

[DocRU]

Its not a question of not liking Jordan. As bac points out, the numbers are damning. And the excuses are hollow. Lets remember, Doorson and Diallo are projects. Both will not be B1G caliber centers next year.

 

[bac2therac]

my mind was made up before the injuries from what I saw the first two years, what I see in program management and recruiting and what I see in selling a vision for the program with energy and what I saw in the first 13 games where the team was fairly healthy. Sure there are bright spots and next year will be better, they will win more game but I don't think Eddie is the guy to take us to the NCAA no.. People are free to disagree and to feel differently but I don't think my position is unrealistic either

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

There is a witch hunt against Jordan and you don't want to be a part of it. I get it and respect it.

Can you list some good and bad of what you saw from the team and coaching staff. Anything you think we could be doing differently. IS it 100% hopeless because of the injuries?

 

[jellyman_rivals307848]

There is a witch hunt against Jordan and you don't want to be a part of it. I get it and respect it.

Can you list some good and bad of what you saw from the team and coaching staff. Anything you think we could be doing differently. IS it 100% hopeless because of the injuries?

If directed at my post, a fair question.

Unfortunately, I just do not know - in general.

In GENERAL:

1) Bac's comments about RU's performance prior to Freeman getting hurt (i.e. loss to St. Johns, struggles against some very lesser teams) are fair ones.

2) Other posters' comments about recruiting flaws are also fair ones.

3) RU's weak rebounding and defense prior to the injuries were also undeniable.

BUT ... On the other hand:

1) For THIS year, with the injuries, I do not see ANYTHING that could have been done by the coaching staff. Bac's citing of other teams with injuries aside - and I would need to look at each of the teams he cited, and see which players were hurt, when, for how long, at what position, etc., to truly analyze it ... which I just do not have the time to do so. Freeman's loss was an enormous blow ... RU had already been left short-handed with the Johnson (both of them) failed recruiting (coaching staff fault), and Doorson's injury (not coaching staff fault - and Doorson, though not a star, WAS expected to be a key component, even without Lewis' knee issues). Freeman, at the time he was hurt, was RU's best scorer, and best or 2nd best player, the clear replacement for Jack - and looked to be a solid replacement for Jack. It is easy to say that other teams have lost top players and have done better than RU has done ... but each team's dynamic is different (and anyone being objective KNOWS this) ... RU was too thin coming into the season (coaching staff responsibility), so the loss of ANYONE, let alone the guy expected to be RU's best scorer, is more devastating than for many other teams. When Diallo got hurt also ... that was a HUGE blow. For one, it forced Laurent to play out of position, as the back-up PF. Anyone who knows even ANYTHING about basketball could tell immediately that was a problem for RU. In the 1st 2-3 games Laurent played as back-up PF, you could tell he had no idea what to do on defense: Post defense is a real learned art, and you could tell he was not sure what he was doing. Plus the "help" defense rotation by post players is very different than from perimeter players. And Laurent had to learn that FAST. And then when Laurent got hurt in the Indiana game (albeit late) ... oh my. Now you were left with only 2 players over 6'4" tall. And the only natural center, Lewis, is playing on one leg - and the last game aside, has been limited to perhaps 20 minutes per game ... and obviously is VERY limited in practice to preserve his game-playing ability. On top of that, also in the Indiana game - or before - Foreman hurt his ankle and was not 100% for at least 3-4 games. When players like Williams and Goode have to defend 6'8" to 6'11" players in the post for large chunks of the game, and 6'4" Grier has to defend 6'10" to 7' players in the post for much of the game ... that seems like a very hopeless task to me, with NOTHING ANY COACH CAN DO. And there is no doubt whatsoever the team improved dramatically with the return of Laurent from his injury - though the team is STILL very short-handed and small.

2) In re recruiting ... I dunno. RU now has 3 players who have verballed. I cannot tell how good the players are. All 3 definitely have length and athleticism, exactly what Jordan has said he wants. If all 3 sign and come to RU, then RU will finally have length on the wing, the lack of which has really hurt RU this year. Even against Illinois, Williams was covering #21 a lot - and there were times that #21 backed down on Williams, and then just turned around and shot right over Williams ... Williams is 6'2" and a good defender, but #21 was listed at 6'6", but looked like he may have been even 6'7". Having 6'4" to 6'6" ... and with Thiam 6'8" or 6'9" wings could make a real difference. And I think one of the recruits is a 6'5" GUARD. I think Thiam is rather well-regarded. The tape on the other 2 looks decent, at least.

3) I think the inability to even practice properly because of the injuries is a really big deal. Like really big. How do players get better without practicing properly? How does a coach properly prepare a team for double teams, for traps, add new wrinkles on defense, etc., without full 5 on 5 practices, or without all the players who are even able to play being able to practice?

I can easily see how these injuries can have a compounding effect during a series of games, and RU getting absolutely destroyed as a result - and I DO believe there was absolutely NOTHING the coaches could do about it. Look how much better RU has been (though still losing), and how much more competitive for reasonable stretches RU has been with JUST adding Laurent back healthy.

On the other hand, I do see the issue with what to do with a coaching staff that might end up losing 33 consecutive league games (which would happen should RU go 6-26, 0-18 this year - which IS possible). And RU was certainly disappointing last year as well.

Still, on the 3rd hand, the program was REALLY in a shambles when Jordan took over ... and it was a shambles of epic proportions. Jordan has certainly made some mistakes as a coach. I desperately wish for him to succeed ... and I will admit that I do not know if he is the right coach to move RU forward. But frankly, though there are some who are absolutely convinced he is NOT the right guy - and I GET that perspective - I just do not believe they are accounting for how large the hurdles have been, and are (and yes, I acknowledge the huge losses, etc.).

 

[Knights 1212]

I think Jelly has presented as usual a very logical and well thought out explanation of RU's situation. I think he has nailed it as to problems we have faced. I think many others have not looked at all of the angles that he has touched on. I for one am impressed.

 

[ru66]

hire Bac he knows it all

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Thanks for the response...I am just looking for something to hold my hat on. The best thing for the organization is for Jordan to be the guy.

I do think the team chemistry is pretty good, actually very good. I think roughly somewhere between 85-86% (closer to 86) of the players in the main rotation are on the same page with Eddie, not to be overlooked. He also seems to be on the same page with Corey.

I am really disappointed with the D, but I need to be more realistic given how poor a few of our players are defensively. You just can't hide them at this level and they really bring us down.

 

[jellyman_rivals307848]

Thanks for the response...I am just looking for something to hold my hat on. The best thing for the organization is for Jordan to be the guy.

I do think the team chemistry is pretty good, actually very good. I think roughly somewhere between 85-86% (closer to 86) of the players in the main rotation are on the same page with Eddie, not to be overlooked. He also seems to be on the same page with Corey.

I am really disappointed with the D, but I need to be more realistic given how poor a few of our players are defensively. You just can't hide them at this level and they really bring us down.

I should also add that it APPEARS that Jordan has NOT "lost" the team, despite the losing - or even the crushing losses. That is a relevant factor in judging the coaches, no? That ties into your team chemistry point, though goes beyond it. But this will be tested after the end of the year. If Sanders, Laurent, Foreman or Williams transfer ... a big problem.

 

[RUskoolie]

Hurley wanted 7 years so he wouldn't be in the position Jordan is in right now, which is a frustrated fan base wanting him fired because he isn't winning after inheriting 4 scholarship players 3 years ago. EJ and Hobbs got dealt a total **** sandwich this season and as frustrating as it is for me to watch its even more frustrating for me to read people complain on here daily, ignorning that these players aren't video game characters...they get tired because only 7 scholarship guys can play, they can't develop because they don't have enough bodies in practice, etc, etc.

I don't care if he gets canned but anyone who is objective can see this team will be better next year. IMO, if they bring EJ back it's 15-16 wins or bust. But to fire him now and hire some no name coach from West Pakistan Tech solves nothing and too many of you are ignorning that fact.

 

[RU_WL]

Jellyman is spot on! Well said!

IMO, firing EJ will just prolong the mending/recovery process. MRice's destruction of RU BB is massive. People who do not follow college basketball read or watched negatively about RU BB in the news thanks to MRice.

Give EJ one more year and see what he can do with all his players in a full roster. I am sure RU can extend Eddie's contract conditionally.

A core of Sanders, Johnson, Williams, Freeman, Foreman and Laurent is already better than what RU has on the floor now. Add the newcomers and centers, and next year team is competitive on paper in the B1G.

If directed at my post, a fair question.

Unfortunately, I just do not know - in general.

In GENERAL:

1) Bac's comments about RU's performance prior to Freeman getting hurt (i.e. loss to St. Johns, struggles against some very lesser teams) are fair ones.

2) Other posters' comments about recruiting flaws are also fair ones.

3) RU's weak rebounding and defense prior to the injuries were also undeniable.

BUT ... On the other hand:

1) For THIS year, with the injuries, I do not see ANYTHING that could have been done by the coaching staff. Bac's citing of other teams with injuries aside - and I would need to look at each of the teams he cited, and see which players were hurt, when, for how long, at what position, etc., to truly analyze it ... which I just do not have the time to do so. Freeman's loss was an enormous blow ... RU had already been left short-handed with the Johnson (both of them) failed recruiting (coaching staff fault), and Doorson's injury (not coaching staff fault - and Doorson, though not a star, WAS expected to be a key component, even without Lewis' knee issues). Freeman, at the time he was hurt, was RU's best scorer, and best or 2nd best player, the clear replacement for Jack - and looked to be a solid replacement for Jack. It is easy to say that other teams have lost top players and have done better than RU has done ... but each team's dynamic is different (and anyone being objective KNOWS this) ... RU was too thin coming into the season (coaching staff responsibility), so the loss of ANYONE, let alone the guy expected to be RU's best scorer, is more devastating than for many other teams. When Diallo got hurt also ... that was a HUGE blow. For one, it forced Laurent to play out of position, as the back-up PF. Anyone who knows even ANYTHING about basketball could tell immediately that was a problem for RU. In the 1st 2-3 games Laurent played as back-up PF, you could tell he had no idea what to do on defense: Post defense is a real learned art, and you could tell he was not sure what he was doing. Plus the "help" defense rotation by post players is very different than from perimeter players. And Laurent had to learn that FAST. And then when Laurent got hurt in the Indiana game (albeit late) ... oh my. Now you were left with only 2 players over 6'4" tall. And the only natural center, Lewis, is playing on one leg - and the last game aside, has been limited to perhaps 20 minutes per game ... and obviously is VERY limited in practice to preserve his game-playing ability. On top of that, also in the Indiana game - or before - Foreman hurt his ankle and was not 100% for at least 3-4 games. When players like Williams and Goode have to defend 6'8" to 6'11" players in the post for large chunks of the game, and 6'4" Grier has to defend 6'10" to 7' players in the post for much of the game ... that seems like a very hopeless task to me, with NOTHING ANY COACH CAN DO. And there is no doubt whatsoever the team improved dramatically with the return of Laurent from his injury - though the team is STILL very short-handed and small.

2) In re recruiting ... I dunno. RU now has 3 players who have verballed. I cannot tell how good the players are. All 3 definitely have length and athleticism, exactly what Jordan has said he wants. If all 3 sign and come to RU, then RU will finally have length on the wing, the lack of which has really hurt RU this year. Even against Illinois, Williams was covering #21 a lot - and there were times that #21 backed down on Williams, and then just turned around and shot right over Williams ... Williams is 6'2" and a good defender, but #21 was listed at 6'6", but looked like he may have been even 6'7". Having 6'4" to 6'6" ... and with Thiam 6'8" or 6'9" wings could make a real difference. And I think one of the recruits is a 6'5" GUARD. I think Thiam is rather well-regarded. The tape on the other 2 looks decent, at least.

3) I think the inability to even practice properly because of the injuries is a really big deal. Like really big. How do players get better without practicing properly? How does a coach properly prepare a team for double teams, for traps, add new wrinkles on defense, etc., without full 5 on 5 practices, or without all the players who are even able to play being able to practice?

I can easily see how these injuries can have a compounding effect during a series of games, and RU getting absolutely destroyed as a result - and I DO believe there was absolutely NOTHING the coaches could do about it. Look how much better RU has been (though still losing), and how much more competitive for reasonable stretches RU has been with JUST adding Laurent back healthy.

On the other hand, I do see the issue with what to do with a coaching staff that might end up losing 33 consecutive league games (which would happen should RU go 6-26, 0-18 this year - which IS possible). And RU was certainly disappointing last year as well.

Still, on the 3rd hand, the program was REALLY in a shambles when Jordan took over ... and it was a shambles of epic proportions. Jordan has certainly made some mistakes as a coach. I desperately wish for him to succeed ... and I will admit that I do not know if he is the right coach to move RU forward. But frankly, though there are some who are absolutely convinced he is NOT the right guy - and I GET that perspective - I just do not believe they are accounting for how large the hurdles have been, and are (and yes, I acknowledge the huge losses, etc.).

 

[RickB113]

Doorson can be a big ten center next season. He has some very nice skills. Diallo can be serviceable. If the team stays together next season I think we can win 6-8 big ten games and then make a run the following season.

 

[mrslate]

I should also add that it APPEARS that Jordan has NOT "lost" the team, despite the losing - or even the crushing losses. That is a relevant factor in judging the coaches, no? That ties into your team chemistry point, though goes beyond it. But this will be tested after the end of the year. If Sanders, Laurent, Foreman or Williams transfer ... a big problem.

Bingo, bingo, bingo. Barring any crazy developments, EJ has a chance - a chance - to be the coach next year. If Sanders or Laurent transfer (he could withstand Foreman or Williams), then I think it is over. A lot of good points are made here, and this decision is yet another reason why Pat Hobbs gets the big bucks. By the way, Bac, I ran into our old friend Julie Herman last week. We did not speak for long, but she seemed well, and in good spirits.

 

[ru66]

hurley not exactly setting the world on fire

 

[bac2therac]

Schools dont go from 0 to 8 wins in this league....id like tobinow how some think we are leapfrogging all the teams in front of us to win 8 while they are also bringing in better classes...only at Rutgers where we exist in a bubble to our fans

 

[seels2662]

You know part of the reason why we don't have people to practice is that Jordan's walkon recruiting has been terrible. I'm not saying that we should have AA walkons but it is a problem when your tallest walkon is 5'11". Maybe if we actually had a tall walkon then the bigs wouldn't get hurt as much because they aren't practicing against each other all the time.

 

[jellyman_rivals307848]

You know part of the reason why we don't have people to practice is that Jordan's walkon recruiting has been terrible. I'm not saying that we should have AA walkons but it is a problem when your tallest walkon is 5'11". Maybe if we actually had a tall walkon then the bigs wouldn't get hurt as much because they aren't practicing against each other all the time.

Really?

With all that the staff could be criticized for THAT is your highlighted problem?

I find this post one of the more ridiculous posts I have ever seen .... yes, Jordan is not the right guy because his WALK ON RECRUITING has not been good enough.

Please ... stop the ridiculousness.

 

[Knightmoves]

hire Bac he knows it all

Sounds like you're coming around to bac's way of thinking. lol

 

[ruman]

Bingo, bingo, bingo. Barring any crazy developments, EJ has a chance - a chance - to be the coach next year. If Sanders or Laurent transfer (he could withstand Foreman or Williams), then I think it is over. A lot of good points are made here, and this decision is yet another reason why Pat Hobbs gets the big bucks. By the way, Bac, I ran into our old friend Julie Herman last week. We did not speak for long, but she seemed well, and in good spirits.

You generally have to make a decision on the coach before you know if someone is transferring. You could easily decide to bring Eddie back and have someone transfer after that decision. No guarantees

 

[ruman]

hurley not exactly setting the world on fire

may make him gettable if we decide to change

 

[G- RUnit]

Please no Danny. Bobby perhaps. But Danny has been meh. Rice got more out of Biruta than Hurley did. The idea that you need seven years to turn around a hoops program is patently ridiculous.

 

[seels2662]

Really?

With all that the staff could be criticized for THAT is your highlighted problem?

I find this post one of the more ridiculous posts I have ever seen .... yes, Jordan is not the right guy because his WALK ON RECRUITING has not been good enough.

Please ... stop the ridiculousness.

Understand that I am not one of those that thinks Jordan has to go. But yes, that has bothered me.

 

[ruman]

Please no Danny. Bobby perhaps. But Danny has been meh. Rice got more out of Biruta than Hurley did. The idea that you need seven years to turn around a hoops program is patently ridiculous.

Asking for a seven year deal is not the same as saying it will take seven years to turn things around.

Its saying if you really want me to leave a good job, give me guaranteed money, or no thanks.

And Bobby just went to ASU

 

[MCKnight]

In theory, the best case scenario with luck and optimism is for this team to compete for an NCAA bid in Sanders Junior Year, which is EJ in his real final fifth year of original contract, (which we know won't happen with extension decision made before). But This best case scenario requires sanders staying, a lot of player development with the wings and Bigs, and a lot of luck, which RU has never had....

 

[goru7]

Bingo, bingo, bingo. Barring any crazy developments, EJ has a chance - a chance - to be the coach next year. If Sanders or Laurent transfer (he could withstand Foreman or Williams), then I think it is over. A lot of good points are made here, and this decision is yet another reason why Pat Hobbs gets the big bucks. By the way, Bac, I ran into our old friend Julie Herman last week. We did not speak for long, but she seemed well, and in good spirits.

Mrs. Slate, Eddie cannot afford Mike or DJ transferring. Mike is really coming on , a little more consistent every game, getting 17, 17 15 , 16 . DJ has to control his driving. He has decent moves but needs to be reigned in. Both are sophomores and if they are not starters next year would provide much needed depth. No transfers to give Eddie a chance

 

[G- RUnit]

Asking for a seven year deal is not the same as saying it will take seven years to turn things around.

Its saying if you really want me to leave a good job, give me guaranteed money, or no thanks.

And Bobby just went to ASU

No basketball coach needs a seven year deal. Eddie only barely at 2 and a half. Ridiculous to suggest that Eddie, Hurley or anybody needs or deserves triple that!!!

 

[RUskoolie]

Schools dont go from 0 to 8 wins in this league....id like tobinow how some think we are leapfrogging all the teams in front of us to win 8 while they are also bringing in better classes...only at Rutgers where we exist in a bubble to our fans

So 3 years ago when Rice was fired and we had 4 scholarship players left you expected to win 8 games in the B1G conference in Year 3 or 4? C'mon... I wish we could archive posts that far back, I remember you specifically saying this was a 6-8 year rebuild.

 

[RUskoolie]

No basketball coach needs a seven year deal. Eddie only barely at 2 and a half. Ridiculous to suggest that Eddie, Hurley or anybody needs or deserves triple that!!!

Then you clearely ignored the reality of the situation post Mike Rice and are still ignorning reality of what it takes to build a program from scratch (which is essentially what we're asking EJ to do).

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Mrs. Slate, Eddie cannot afford Mike or DJ transferring. Mike is really coming on , a little more consistent every game, getting 17, 17 15 , 16 . DJ has to control his driving. He has decent moves but needs to be reigned in. Both are sophomores and if they are not starters next year would provide much needed depth. No transfers to give Eddie a chance

We need open scholarships. Don't want to see Mike, Corey, Freeman, or Jonathan leave.

 

[G- RUnit]

Then you clearely ignored the reality of the situation post Mike Rice and are still ignorning reality of what it takes to build a program from scratch (which is essentially what we're asking EJ to do).

Please overly dramatic. You do not need seven years to rebuild a basketball program.

 

[RUsojo]

There are no signs of any contributors transferring at this time. The few public statements that have been made by players indicate long term commitment. We shall see. The past losses of Rosario, Carter, Jones, etc still haunt some you older guys.

This is the only place transfer talk is occurring. No other school (and I've been involved at multiple athektic programs) openly discuss the possibility of the best players transferring. Just something ive noticed. Instead they rally around them.

The only thing this program hasn't tried in he last 10 years is continuity. I for one believe that will change with this coach (thanks to the AD).

 

[ruman]

No basketball coach needs a seven year deal. Eddie only barely at 2 and a half. Ridiculous to suggest that Eddie, Hurley or anybody needs or deserves triple that!!!

I think Pitino has like a 10 year deal - it doesn't mean that he needs 10 years to fix things

Danny said give me this or I wont come. We choose not to do so. Its called negotiating. And Eddie signed a 5 year contract when he came here.

 

[G- RUnit]

5 is fine. That's four years plus one more class. Pitino or Coach K deserved great contracts. Although judging from the nonsense and hyjinx from Louisville every other year that's precisely why you don't give out seven year contracts.

 

[goru7]

We need open scholarships. Don't want to see Mike, Corey, Freeman, or Jonathan leave.

Or DJ, no?

 

[RUChoppin]

At this point, there's really nothing to gain by changing coaches for next season. The roster is what the roster is going to be in 2016-17, and there's really not much opportunity for a new coach to bring in new guys in 2017-18 either (unless there's a transfer exodus along with the new hire).

If Freeman can get a RS, the next two years' roster will be set, short of transfers. Next season, players not pulling their weight will need to be encouraged to look elsewhere (including any of the freshmen that don't look they're hacking it) in order to continue to upgrade the roster.

My biggest concern with EJ right now is recruiting for the future... if he can right the ship with healthy players next year, and open up a couple roster spots (from the bottom of the roster, not from contributors) that lead to a couple strong guys coming in for 2017-18, my opinion will quickly change.

This season is a write off with regard to the overall W/L record (or even margins of victory) this year due to the hand he's been dealt. Sanders, Laurent, and Williams seem to be progressing from an individual performance perspective, so whatever they're going over in their limited practices seems to be helping them. If Foreman, Diallo, and Doorson can follow suit, Johnson becomes a significant contributor, and the roster additions mentioned in the last paragraph happen... maybe we can file this season in the "we shall never again speak of this" folder.