Plum was doing what he was told. Double LJ. He did it, and they paid the price. Just not good play call by coach. AD just burned them down, not much they could do about it.
AD BUZZER BEATER
- Thread starter WilmoreCat
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He wasn't very great at shooting threes when he was at the University have Kentucky.
Man, top 10? In no real order you have Magic, Zeke, Stockton, Nash, Steph, Kidd, Cousy, Oscar, Payton, Westbrook, West (combo or SG if you prefer), CP3, Frazier, Parker, Tiny, Penny, and Rose who were all undoubtedly better.
Then there's a list of guys like Dave Bing, Lenny Wilkens, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Billups, Dennis Johnson, and even guys playing now like Dame Lillard (and maybe a healthy Kyrie) that are probably better and/or more accomplished than Rondo too.
I think he's a borderline Hall of Famer and probably top 30-ish all time PG. Top 10 is steep.
Penny and Rose may have reached greater heights for a couple of seasons or so, but spanning their entire careers, they are not better than Rondo.
Rose was league MVP at 22. Penny would have probably won one himself. Injuries robbed both of them of longevity, but they're better players than Rajon Rondo.
I concede that at their peak they were better but in "all-time" discussions you've got to consider their entire careers. Who would you pick today between Rondo and Rose?
To join my team today? Depends on what I need, but probably Rose.
If we're talking all-time, I'm still taking the guy who can be the best player on a title contender. Rose and Penny were that for several years, Rondo never was.
Besides, Rondo's entire career hasn't been like those elite Boston years anyway. Even with injuries, Rose has been a better player the last several years. But if each guy has spent a chunk of his career as a starter-level player instead of a star, at least give me the guy who was a superstar at one point.
Now, you can't argue against saying Rondo has accomplished more. But team success and counting stats don't tell the story unless you think Robert Horry is a better winner than DWade or that Jason Kidd is a better shooter than Larry Bird.
The injury thing is impossible to really settle though. Grant Hill, Bill Walton--there's a ton of guys who we sadly don't know where they truly belong all-time because we didn't see their full career. We just know how good they were at their best.
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To me it looked like Plumlee was expecting the switch, and either he didn’t communicate that or Grant didn’t hear him. But the certainly looked disjointed on that. Would be interesting to hear Malone’s take on it.
I really was referring to his passing skills not his entire body of work. Rondo is a better passer than a lot of the players on that list.
I would say he is actually near the top 10. somewhere around 10-15, is my guess.
Rose is definitely NOT ahead of Rondo. And some of those other players are questionable as well.
Which ones? I gave you like 25 guys. Which 10 are you taking away?
And Rose is absolutely ahead of Rondo. He was league MVP. He's averaged 18/6 the last two seasons. In seasons where he's healthy enough to play more than 50 games, he's never averaged less than 17/5, even coming off of injuries. His career PER is over 2 points higher. Rondo has only had two seasons where his PER was equal to or higher than Rose's career average, even with injuries.
You might like Rondo and you may remember him on those stacked Celtics teams, but he's not as good as Derrick Rose.
That one's much tougher to figure, but it sort of reaffirms the point I was making overall.
We evaluate Rondo differently because he doesn't play the same role as those other guys, because he's not as good. If Nash or CP3 or someone loses in the playoffs, it's blamed on them as the franchise player, etc. whereas Rondo is always the really good role player next to the stars. When those Celtics teams fell short, it wasn't *because* of Rondo in the same way that people say Payton or Stockton or whoever never won a title.
So to determine playoff rankings, what do you value? Is Westbrook posting a triple double on a bad Thunder team but losing to the Warriors less valuable than Rondo having gaudy assists on a team that could have won the title with a dozen other PGs leading the way? How do we weigh team success vs. individual performances or determine how much of that team success he was integral to? Because when you get to this level, these all-time great or HoF discussions, the hairs you split have to be the right ones and have to be split properly. Otherwise you put Robert Horry closer to Tim Duncan than Karl Malone is.
i see what you’re getting at but i can only respond randomly because it’s my eye test and that’s a lot of questions. i’ll give you a playoff triple double threat older and younger than rondo and tell you why i think for leading a team in the playoffs rondo is as good or better than either.
rondo, kidd, westbrook are all ball dominant. first, westbrook is i think a selfish player who uses his supreme determination, athleticism and usage to get his assists. i don’t penalize him for that, it’s a preference what i think is normal and realistic over a long series. he gets around a guy and his team isn’t sure he’s going to shoot or pass. rondo’s teammates are always running and cutting hard getting to their spots. i don’t see that with westbrook. he always has the ball deep in the clock and commits a lot of turnovers. yeah he scores, but he shot a crap percentage in the playoffs. he doesn’t fascilitate an offense as much as he dumps the ball off imo. yes the recipient is in good position if he gets penetration and that’s great. but think of the energy it takes to penetrate every play. he had seasons where he basically did that, but it’s not as adaptive for a series where teams will adjust. with rondo you can’t really adjust, he can force assists 4 against 5 even when they lay off him. that’s an elite type of facilitating.
kidd was as unselfish as anyone ever, but he couldn’t spin the ball like rondo. i mean he couldn’t force assists as good as rondo, although if you turn your head he’d burn you. but everyone had to be running or cutting for it to work and he had that system in nj. he was also not a threat to take it to the rim like rajon. rondo is very underrated around the rim, and this has to do with his changing speeds and spinning the ball. he’s one of the craftiest players to ever play imo.
yes i would take rondo over either player if i’m trying to win a series. you remember just a few years ago rondo was going to beat the celtics with that bulls team until he got injured? you remember how people said he was controlling the games, and then he goes down they lose 4 straight. that is the main reason i think he is great. with lesser talent he can still control the game, and win. not anyone can do that.
for degree of difficulty, and forcing things that don’t appear there, he has to be one of the best passers ever. he’s also (not even close imo) the best delayed break facilitator i’ve ever seen. he can throw curve balls to guys in the corner for 3 who barely knew they were open or going to shoot until the ball promptly arrives fooling a scattering defense.
what’s more, he has many playoff “moments”. the kind of plays that define a game or a series. the dive against jay williams, the behind the back against lebron, the fake behind the back pass finger roll he did many times. when i think of westbrook and kidd, i don’t recall nearly half of the moments that i can for rondo. edit - i’d probably put him in the top 5 for playoffs in modern times, behind magic, stockton, parker, dj. yes, ahead of gp.
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also gonzo, i’d say rondo was the only reason the celtics rode as long as they did. you take him down for being 4th wheel on a stellar 2008 team, but you also have to bring him up for keeping them in the hunt for another 5 years.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, we just weigh those things differently. Particularly when it comes to postseason discussions, I think people place a lot of emphasis on winning (and rightfully so), but that makes it tough to rank individual players. I don't think there's anything about 2006-2012 Rondo that wouldn't have been topped by 80s Magic, Zeke and DJ, 90s Stockton and GP, 2000s Nash, CP3, etc.
And that's no slight. Like I said, top 25-30ish at a position is really, really good. I just think those guys were clear franchise players, or in the case of guys like DJ, played a role similar to Rondo but did more with it.
I do think he ranks higher all-time in the playoffs, even if only slightly, because his game definitely elevates when the postseason rolls around. We're seeing it with the Lakers now. He's been trash in the regular season for a few years now, but he still has a little of that extra gear left in the playoffs.
I also think people who watch more casually are conflating that with Rondo's overall game in the discussion about longevity vs Rose. He isn't this (that) Rondo all the time and hasn't been for several years now.
Now, if we're talking passing only, he's absolutely top 10.
well that will be the perception from now on since ad is now bonafide clutch for everyone else to see. yet the talking heads this morning are still talking about lebron’s not asking for the ball.
Is it better to have someone that’s just good at everything or respectable at everything and GREAT at one thing?
Rondo is one of the top 3 setup guys of all time. Rose isn’t top 20 all time in anything.
Neither is a guy you build a team around.
Some guys I have a hard time trusting until they’ve won something. Even though I know rose has never been on a team that had the pieces to get it done. I know rondo is a winner. And a guy willing to commit to his role for the sake of winning.
I just think there’s often more to player x vs player y than numbers.
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Rondo is one of the top 3 setup guys of all time. Rose isn’t top 20 all time in anything.
Neither is a guy you build a team around.
Some guys I have a hard time trusting until they’ve won something. Even though I know rose has never been on a team that had the pieces to get it done. I know rondo is a winner. And a guy willing to commit to his role for the sake of winning.
I just think there’s often more to player x vs player y than numbers.
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If we’re drafting an all time team, and I can’t get Steve Nash, Magic, Stockton, Parker, Oscar or Kidd, that means I probably built my team around the best players at other positions. At that point...yeah I’m probably taking rondo over rose. Rose just doesn’t stand out to me for anything outside of his first few years.
imagine rondo on those steve nash teams gonzo. full court games where rondo is best (transition) surrounded with three point shooters and athletic bigs. he’d have had a field day imo. so it flips with guys like nash who had a system tailor made for their game (like kidd also). he also would have made them significantly better defensively.
Gut feeling says I don't move him as much as others probably would, just because I don't think playoff results are indicative of some drastic shift in who a player truly is. Steve Nash is still an all-time great even if the Suns got robbed against the Spurs and never won a title.
I'd have to dive deeper, as some of the guys who are in that range are guys from eras that I'm not as familiar with to know their playoff-specific performance levels and I'm worried my bias would be towards guys like Rondo that I actually saw and remember those moments for (as you put it).
Top 3? You mean among PGs or among overall players? I think either is too generous but among PGs is at least more understandable. Rondo isn't a better setup guy than Magic, LeBron, Bird, Stockton, Kidd, etc.
Rose isn't top 20 all time in anything, unless you're only talking PGs, and then he's a top 20 creator/scorer at his peak. Probably closer to top 10, granted, over a short time frame.
You could absolutely build a team around Derrick Rose. He was league MVP at 22 years old and the Bulls were real contenders in the east even with awful coaching and a roster that didn't fit yet.
There's definitely more to it than the numbers, but the numbers also tell you what your eyes should see: Derrick Rose is/was a better player than Rajon Rondo. League MVP is rare air. That's even a next level up from guys that are All Stars or All NBA.
We've seen Rondo in peak circumstances and have the benefit of knowing his full career because we've seen it play out. We didn't see Rose with all the pieces around him. We didn't even see him in his prime. An MVP at 22 means it's not outrageous to think he probably wins another. I know you have to account for injuries, but we put guys like Hill and Walton among the all-timers at their position (just a tier down from the very top guys) and I think that's where Rose belongs among PGs.
Rondo never got to that level. He was a very good player on some very good teams. He was never the best player in the league. He was never even the best player on his own team.
Rose is definitely top 20 in disregard for your body while driving to the hoop.
You overemphasize the regular season WAYYYY too much. Rose simply hasn't done anything to merit any discussion of being higher than Rondo. BTW, it's playoff Rondo because he takes it up a notch during the playoff.
Both the number and his accomplishment speaks to him being top 15. You simply named a lot of players, but I followed up on their stats and they don't exactly SCREAM out to be better. I also notice that you seem to care about points as the driving force in your argument that Rondo isn't as good.
Let's use your own example...How do you rate Tony Parker ahead of Rondo? You mentioned Rondo playing with "big 3" but failed to mention that Tony Parker played with an even better player in Tim Duncan (Ginobli, Kawhi...) as well as coaching. What's worse is that Tony Parker's stats in playoff doesn't hold a candle to Rondo's. Rondo is both a better passer and defender than parker. TP's BPM wasn't very good either in playoff.
Which brings up to other players you named, like Gary Payton...again great player but there isn't real evidence that comparing two player's playoff stats, that Gary is "UNDOUBTABLY" better. While their regular season stat AND points are usually better, once you get to the playoff, MANY advanced metrics would argue that Rondo was just as good, if not better.
We forget that Rondo was ALSO hampered by injury, and YET he is top 10 in playoff assists. Imagine if he didn't get so injured.
Why is someone who might end up being top 5 in playoff assist, but only top 30 in PG???
Yes, I agree Rondo isn't close to the top tier PG...but top 15. I would take him there.
Oh btw, he will likely pass Kobe and Pippin in all-time playoff tonight. In-game 4, he might pass Steve Nash (in less game, to boot). Rondo's career is continuing... If healthy he would definitely have been ahead of Jason Kidd in all-time assists in a playoff.
and yet you think he is "top 30 pg of all time".
Rose - superior player in his prime
Rondo - career is better (understands his role)
I don't understand the argument its clear as day. Not something I'd like to dig in deeper with you all tonight.... but Rondo is clearly an effective 3rd or 4th option on a Championship team. Rose career was ruined by injuries
Rondo - career is better (understands his role)
I don't understand the argument its clear as day. Not something I'd like to dig in deeper with you all tonight.... but Rondo is clearly an effective 3rd or 4th option on a Championship team. Rose career was ruined by injuries
Man if you think Rajon Rondo is arguably better than Gary Payton I don't know what to tell you. Have whatever opinion you want.
I said he's in the top 25-30 PGs of all time. If you think he's better than 10 of those guys, make the case. Or just say top 20. My point was that he wasn't top 10, and the OP didn't even mean top 10.
Listen, will y'all please let us enjoy this in peace? I don't care if you ever watch another game of any sport ever, just stop bothering people about it. No one cares. We don't show up on your national anthem message board and interject. You aren't saving the country, you're just obnoxious.
I was thinking the same thing every-time I try to watch a sporting event and it’s hijacked by extremist losers with their misinformation and propaganda. I’m sure it’s bothering you too.
On your original post, you’re giving Hardaway too much credit. I watched him in real time back then, he had a few good years but the league caught on. He was the beneficiary of playing with a young Shaq.
Saying he’s better than Rondo is false. Saying Rondo is better than Peyton is more false.