#AccelerateTheTimeline
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Does this refer to the team’s progress, or the speed of the construction of the practice facility?
I think it's a jab at people commenting that Rutgers would get better faster if Corey didn't return next year. https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/if-corey-parts-at-seasons-end.140019/page-2#post-3176852
If you want to call me out, call me out. I think I've been pretty clear that this is something I've gone back and forth with. The fact of the matter is, Corey Sanders or not, this isn't a tournament team next year. So theoretically him leaving and being replaced with somebody who might eventually help us make the tournament would be a good thing. And I do partially feel that way.
I see the obvious benefits to him staying. But the fact that Sanders is our best player says more about the rest of our team than it does about him. Right now though I think I've settled on wanting him back, for the basketball but also the fact that he'll be a senior and that turning real human basketball players into commodities (as I've been guilty of before) isn't a very fun way to look at things.
I see the obvious benefits to him staying. But the fact that Sanders is our best player says more about the rest of our team than it does about him. Right now though I think I've settled on wanting him back, for the basketball but also the fact that he'll be a senior and that turning real human basketball players into commodities (as I've been guilty of before) isn't a very fun way to look at things.
I will gladly call you out. Go root for another team if you cannot see the benefit of having Corey back next year. Clueless IQ!
I still think you go Corey as a senior for next year. There are always ways to free up scholarships and I doubt Hyatt says, "I'm not coming if the most talented player on the team is still there."
We have constantly been hit be transfers over the last 10+ years and have never benefitted from actually having talented seniors on our roster. Wanting to see Corey go before his senior year makes zero sense to me because of this.
This is ridic
Haven’t we learned anything??? JFC
Someone is not gojng to be here next year ...if Hyatt wants to be here ...he will be here
End of discussion
Haven’t we learned anything??? JFC
Someone is not gojng to be here next year ...if Hyatt wants to be here ...he will be here
End of discussion
I am not going to deny that he has had some rough games this year, but I think if we take a step back from everything, it's clear that he has improved since his freshman year and will continue to do so if he stays. I would really like to see what he can do with some more offensive support next year. I think some of those bad games were the result of wearing down from a ton of minutes and having everything thrown at him defensively every night.
It has been our scourge through many eras. We have been a great farm system for other programs at times.
I agree with your assessment and hopefully its Hyatt.Another transfer might also happen because of lack of playing time.
Say it with me ..
COREY IS OUR BEST PLAYER and the only one I can trust with the ball in his hands at a critical possession, to not do something stupid, take a bad shot, or freeze up.
COREY IS OUR BEST PLAYER and the only one I can trust with the ball in his hands at a critical possession, to not do something stupid, take a bad shot, or freeze up.
To even suggest that our best player (by leaps and bounds) leave before his senior season, in order to free up a scholarship is insane.
This program needs to get up off the mat and start having winning seasons if we're going to get recruiting to really start to turn around. We haven't had a winning season in over a decade, and we need to change the impression of the program. The kids we are recruiting now were 6 years old the last time we won more than we lost in a season. With Corey, we have a chance to end that streak - without him, even with a solid freshman replacement, that's a much tougher hill to climb.
We aren't going to just suddenly jump into the tournament - not in this conference. We need to get a winning season under our belts, then start looking at that 20-win benchmark and the NIT, then look at the Dance. Might we go faster and skip a step? Sure, but that'd be gravy - expecting us to forward faster by taking a step back next year isn't a recipe for success.
BTW, call me out also. I will just clarify something so it's over and done with.
1. First, there is no need to get pissed off with other viewpoints. I'm not pissed at you for having a point of view on Corey or DF that is different than mine. We are on the same team here...we are rooting for a program that has had it rough for a long time and we want to see good times again.
2. There are two questions that need to be answered with Corey. First, do you think he will be back, and second, do you want him to be back. To answer the first question, I don't think he will be back. I'm entitled to that argument. If you say he will be back just out of hope because you want him back, that isn't much of an argument. The evidence supports that he is going pro. He has tried to go pro twice before, he wants to go pro ASAP, he has life circumstance that might be pushing him to go pro even more now, and he has improved this year to the point where he thinks now is the time (I have no doubt that he thinks very highly of himself and his abilities). I'm just having what I think is a realistic mindset about Corey and his future on this team. So I think he is going.
3. Do I WANT Corey to go? No...not really. But I don't think if he goes then we are screwed. If he stays, of course more positive things happen. Point guard is solidified for one more year while Pike tries to finally find one in recruiting. The pressure is eased off of a lot of players to grow in a less urgent manner. We will have more wins next year with Corey than without him. I want that!
4. If Corey goes though, I think there can be some silver linings that emerge next year in what will be a rougher year (I will concede that!). What are those silver linings...The team will have one more year of learning how to win and score without Corey. That day will have to come. The awkward transition will just come sooner. It will come with more losses and more frustration...which sucks...I do get that. But the players on this team might be a bit tougher and more ready in Year 4 of Pike's regime. That is all I am arguing.
5. Let's be real here as well, and this is where some of you frustrate (but don't anger!!) me. You are overhyping the impact of Corey a bit (I think he's a winning player) and DF (who I respect and appreciate his efforts this year but he is not a winning player and this team will move on just FINE without him next year...a guy who plays way too much iso ball that ruins our offense, stinks at doing what low post players need to be good at...which is putting in putbacks, and plays matador defense at times that leaves his teammates hanging. I understand he is a good rebounder but we will make up for his absence next year and be a better offense without him. A low post player with a crap FG%!! We will be BETTER without him...I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. I'm glad I got off my chest). As for Corey, he is inconsistent. He has had lapses in judgment and leadership this year. He has lousy games against weak competition. He is distracted in other pursuits. His loss is not like Douby's loss. Pike will recruit and develop many more players who will be better than Corey.
6. Let me repeat, I would prefer for the story in #3 to play out more than the one in #4, and I am rooting for #3. But I am expecting #4 and I am trying to rationalize how it will be okay with what I explained in #4 and #5. You don't have to get pissed off at me. I want to see this team finally win as much as you guys do.
7. BTW, to kyk, I'll publicly state that you are totally right on DF. You were classy enough to admit you were wrong on Eugene. I think it is fine admitting to you when you are right about DF, even if you have a way of stating your thoughts that angers some.
1. First, there is no need to get pissed off with other viewpoints. I'm not pissed at you for having a point of view on Corey or DF that is different than mine. We are on the same team here...we are rooting for a program that has had it rough for a long time and we want to see good times again.
2. There are two questions that need to be answered with Corey. First, do you think he will be back, and second, do you want him to be back. To answer the first question, I don't think he will be back. I'm entitled to that argument. If you say he will be back just out of hope because you want him back, that isn't much of an argument. The evidence supports that he is going pro. He has tried to go pro twice before, he wants to go pro ASAP, he has life circumstance that might be pushing him to go pro even more now, and he has improved this year to the point where he thinks now is the time (I have no doubt that he thinks very highly of himself and his abilities). I'm just having what I think is a realistic mindset about Corey and his future on this team. So I think he is going.
3. Do I WANT Corey to go? No...not really. But I don't think if he goes then we are screwed. If he stays, of course more positive things happen. Point guard is solidified for one more year while Pike tries to finally find one in recruiting. The pressure is eased off of a lot of players to grow in a less urgent manner. We will have more wins next year with Corey than without him. I want that!
4. If Corey goes though, I think there can be some silver linings that emerge next year in what will be a rougher year (I will concede that!). What are those silver linings...The team will have one more year of learning how to win and score without Corey. That day will have to come. The awkward transition will just come sooner. It will come with more losses and more frustration...which sucks...I do get that. But the players on this team might be a bit tougher and more ready in Year 4 of Pike's regime. That is all I am arguing.
5. Let's be real here as well, and this is where some of you frustrate (but don't anger!!) me. You are overhyping the impact of Corey a bit (I think he's a winning player) and DF (who I respect and appreciate his efforts this year but he is not a winning player and this team will move on just FINE without him next year...a guy who plays way too much iso ball that ruins our offense, stinks at doing what low post players need to be good at...which is putting in putbacks, and plays matador defense at times that leaves his teammates hanging. I understand he is a good rebounder but we will make up for his absence next year and be a better offense without him. A low post player with a crap FG%!! We will be BETTER without him...I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. I'm glad I got off my chest). As for Corey, he is inconsistent. He has had lapses in judgment and leadership this year. He has lousy games against weak competition. He is distracted in other pursuits. His loss is not like Douby's loss. Pike will recruit and develop many more players who will be better than Corey.
6. Let me repeat, I would prefer for the story in #3 to play out more than the one in #4, and I am rooting for #3. But I am expecting #4 and I am trying to rationalize how it will be okay with what I explained in #4 and #5. You don't have to get pissed off at me. I want to see this team finally win as much as you guys do.
7. BTW, to kyk, I'll publicly state that you are totally right on DF. You were classy enough to admit you were wrong on Eugene. I think it is fine admitting to you when you are right about DF, even if you have a way of stating your thoughts that angers some.
EDITED TO ADD: 1,000,000 likes for @Goku's post above as well.
Nobody seems to want to hear "it's an interesting debate" as an answer, but... it's an interesting debate. When the best player is shooting 23% on three-pointers and 42% on two-pointers, then, yes, it's a debate worth having.
For (what probably won't be) the last time, here is my take: I think that Sanders' high raw point outputs, 4-star pedigree, and obvious athleticism have blinded a lot of people as to his shortcomings. If Corey Sanders followed the average developmental curve from his freshman year then of course there'd be no debate.
In 2015-16, in an offense that was just as bad -- literally, we were rated #303 in the country that year, and we're rated #303 this year -- Sanders was worth roughly 0.96 points for every possession that ended with him either taking a shot or turning the ball over. That number dipped to .90 last year and has only recovered to .94 this year.
The fact of the matter is, guys able to put up those numbers are a dime a dozen. Pittsburgh's offense is also terrible (#290) and they have a 3-star freshman at 0.97 with only a slightly lower usage rate.
I think there's some solid circumstantial evidence that he's not a leader. Consider that he's a three-year starter and the face of the team but was not named a captain, and has been benched twice this year (after the technical at Minnesota, and the start of the Stony Brook game). This is not a big knock on him as not everybody on every team will be leader, but I'm putting it here to show that there won't be a gaping leadership hole next year.
The #acceleratethetimeline thinking comes down to the logic of believing that we'll be a better team in 2022 (when next year's freshman would be seniors) than in 2019. Corey Sanders makes us... I don't know, 25% better than Mystery Freshman X (who would fill Sanders' scholarship) in 2018-19. And maybe the extra win or two or three we get in 2018-19 helps us be 2% better in 2022 through more positive headlines leading to better recruiting or whatnot. But what if Mystery Freshman X turns out to make us 8% better in 2022, and that 6% difference puts us in the tournament?
And yet! Despite that, I want him to return. Partly because on his best nights he can be nearly unstoppable, and I hope he can be more consistent with that. Partly because I don't think whoever we would get to replace him would be a big improvement (hypothetically, you'd have to say you'd want a guy like Jahvon Quinerly over him. But that's obviously not happening realistically).
Also obvious is that some of the numbers I cited are because the rest of the team can't shoot, either. His assist rate dropped six percentage points from his freshman to sophomore seasons and is stuck there. I believe that's because of the team around him, not really much on his end (although I also don't think he's any better than a decent passer).
Mostly I'm just sick of arguments like this being immediately dismissed with zero regard for anything. I put thought into my opinions and I'll be the first to say "I don't know" if I don't know. But seeing people telling me I have no basketball IQ or I'm a hater gets really ******* tiring and it's frankly insulting.
Nobody seems to want to hear "it's an interesting debate" as an answer, but... it's an interesting debate. When the best player is shooting 23% on three-pointers and 42% on two-pointers, then, yes, it's a debate worth having.
For (what probably won't be) the last time, here is my take: I think that Sanders' high raw point outputs, 4-star pedigree, and obvious athleticism have blinded a lot of people as to his shortcomings. If Corey Sanders followed the average developmental curve from his freshman year then of course there'd be no debate.
In 2015-16, in an offense that was just as bad -- literally, we were rated #303 in the country that year, and we're rated #303 this year -- Sanders was worth roughly 0.96 points for every possession that ended with him either taking a shot or turning the ball over. That number dipped to .90 last year and has only recovered to .94 this year.
The fact of the matter is, guys able to put up those numbers are a dime a dozen. Pittsburgh's offense is also terrible (#290) and they have a 3-star freshman at 0.97 with only a slightly lower usage rate.
I think there's some solid circumstantial evidence that he's not a leader. Consider that he's a three-year starter and the face of the team but was not named a captain, and has been benched twice this year (after the technical at Minnesota, and the start of the Stony Brook game). This is not a big knock on him as not everybody on every team will be leader, but I'm putting it here to show that there won't be a gaping leadership hole next year.
The #acceleratethetimeline thinking comes down to the logic of believing that we'll be a better team in 2022 (when next year's freshman would be seniors) than in 2019. Corey Sanders makes us... I don't know, 25% better than Mystery Freshman X (who would fill Sanders' scholarship) in 2018-19. And maybe the extra win or two or three we get in 2018-19 helps us be 2% better in 2022 through more positive headlines leading to better recruiting or whatnot. But what if Mystery Freshman X turns out to make us 8% better in 2022, and that 6% difference puts us in the tournament?
And yet! Despite that, I want him to return. Partly because on his best nights he can be nearly unstoppable, and I hope he can be more consistent with that. Partly because I don't think whoever we would get to replace him would be a big improvement (hypothetically, you'd have to say you'd want a guy like Jahvon Quinerly over him. But that's obviously not happening realistically).
Also obvious is that some of the numbers I cited are because the rest of the team can't shoot, either. His assist rate dropped six percentage points from his freshman to sophomore seasons and is stuck there. I believe that's because of the team around him, not really much on his end (although I also don't think he's any better than a decent passer).
Mostly I'm just sick of arguments like this being immediately dismissed with zero regard for anything. I put thought into my opinions and I'll be the first to say "I don't know" if I don't know. But seeing people telling me I have no basketball IQ or I'm a hater gets really ******* tiring and it's frankly insulting.
There are a few things fundamentally wrong with your points that I think you’re missing.
First, you are making the assumption that you are going to fill Corey’s spot this late in the process with an impact player. There is no reason to believe that is going to happen and if it does, that it has to be mutually exclusive to Corey leaving.
Second, critizing his inefficiencies on offense is totally fair but if you are watching the games, you know there is not even an argument that he is our best offensive player. He certainly has head scratching moments but overall he is the only player we have with even a remote ability to “take over” a game.
On a team starved for talent, there really isn’t a coherent argument to saying the most talented player leaving would be a good thing.
Reduced role and coached to play more efficiently? Sure. But leave?
A guy who, if he stayed for 4 years, would be in the Top 5 in school history in points, assists and steals is a dime a dozen? Especially when swapping junior year production for a freshman's production? Keep in mind that in three years that largely lacked complimentary scorers, he's still made the Top 10 all time in assists after less than 3 full years. We finally will have a complete roster with more complementary pieces next year, and I expect his overall performance to improve as a result.
Whoever we would get to replace him would almost certainly be a dropoff in 2018-19. Freshmen that could produce Corey's junior-year stat line (14.5 pts, 4.5 rb, 3.2 ast, 1.4 stl, 2.2 to, 1.5 pf) while also being solid defenders don't exist unless they are one-and-done guys, who we won't get.
Yet his turnover rate also has dropped 5 percentage points from last year, giving him a better A/TO ratio this year (1.46) than his freshman year (1.39). His rebounding has also improved.
Agreed. I think it's in Corey's best interests to come back. He's not going to make a ton of money next year overseas or in the G-League. I think it would make sense for him to get his degree, work with the staff in the off season to improve his overall game, and try to have a break out season with a better overall roster supporting him.
He tested the waters twice, and was told he wasn't going to be drafted - so he came back both times. I don't think anyone would tell him he was going to be drafted this year, either, even though he can't test the waters again. I'm 100% confident that coming back would be the better decision, but just 60% confident that he'll make that decision.
Still waiting for the punchline in this joke of a thread, because I refuse to believe there is anyone stupid enough to actually even consider, let alone debate, whether they want Sanders back next year. Unfathomable.
Started to read then stopped.
I already had my crazy pills for the day and don’t need to read this nonsense and OD.
YOU think! What you think of Corey and what Corey thinks of himself are quite different. He has given us enough evidence to suggest he is going pro after this year. Again, I hope I am wrong, but the evidence points me towards that stance.
Everyone stares at a car wreck, even if for a moment or just to think what a shame. They’re not thinking, “boy that’s an interesting idea.” That’s this thread.
I just want to see the kid get a degree and see Rutgers with more W's. It's not going to stop a player from re-classifying if he really wants to be here. I like the way our recruiting is going. I'm sure we will lose an additional 1 or 2 players that we weren't expecting.