A universal basic income

[atlkvb]

Seems to be a new "theme" emerging among the Left...essentially guaranteeing everyone regardless of their ability or talent a basic income I'd suppose paid for by the Government even if a person can't work ? Not specified how much that would be or how it would be financed, but this is the new calling card for dynamic Socialist candidates represented by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

What would this do to wages, hiring, prices, labor, consumer costs, the deficit? Who pays? What about those with more earning capability, less? Democrats are serious about this as many of them are starting to promote it in their campaigns along with free healthcare, housing subsidies, food subsidies, and free College educations. All "for the people". Good idea?

Any of you Leftists care to explain how this all will work and be enthusiastically embraced by American voters? Any Leftists here defending this economic sophistry?

 

[op2]

I think the origin of this is Libertarian-types rather than leftists although it has picked up some steam on the left. The notion behind UBI (Universal Basic Income) is that everyone...from the poorest to Bill Gates...gets a certain amount. And plus it means the giant welfare bureaucracy would go away. That's the ideal anyway.

There is a Democrat running for POTUS with this as a major part of his platform, although I don't think he was in politics before this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_(entrepreneur)

 

[Airport]

Seems to be a new "theme" emerging among the Left...essentially guaranteeing everyone regardless of their ability or talent a basic income I'd suppose paid for by the Government even if a person can't work ? Not specified how much thatwould be or how it would be financed, but this is the new calling card for dynamic Socialist candidates represented by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

What would this do to wages, hiring, prices, labor, consumer costs, the deficit? Who pays? What about those with more earning capability, less? Democrats are serious about this as many of them are starting to promote it in their campaigns along with free healthcare, housing subsidies, food subsidies, and free College educations. Good idea?

Any of you Leftists care to explain how this all will work and be enthusiastically embraced by American voters? Any Leftists here defending this economic sophistry?

I thought I read that Chicago is doing this and they are 200 billion in debt.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

Seems to be a new "theme" emerging among the Left...essentially guaranteeing everyone regardless of their ability or talent a basic income I'd suppose paid for by the Government even if a person can't work ? Not specified how much that would be or how it would be financed, but this is the new calling card for dynamic Socialist candidates represented by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

What would this do to wages, hiring, prices, labor, consumer costs, the deficit? Who pays? What about those with more earning capability, less? Democrats are serious about this as many of them are starting to promote it in their campaigns along with free healthcare, housing subsidies, food subsidies, and free College educations. Good idea?

Any of you Leftists care to explain how this all will work and be enthusiastically embraced by American voters? Any Leftists here defending this economic sophistry?

Pretty sure one of those Eurotrash countries tried it and it failed miserably.

 

[atlkvb]

I think the origin of this is Libertarian-types rather than leftists although it has picked up some steam on the left. The notion behind UBI (Universal Basic Income) is that everyone...from the poorest to Bill Gates...gets a certain amount. And plus it means the giant welfare bureaucracy would go away. That's the ideal anyway.

There is a Democrat running for POTUS with this as a major part of his platform, although I don't think he was in politics before this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_(entrepreneur)

So is anyone out there explaining how this all would work in a Capitalistic free enterprise economy? Especially how it's paid for?

 

[Keyser76]

Take away all of the so called "welfare" payments to everyone in West Virginia and see how many "working folks" businesses would go under because every dime of that welfare is spent in the state, corporate welfare is not and costs way more. Not here to argue with ya cause when the haves resent the have nots and then vote to give tax breaks to Corporations I tune out. But hey, keep waiting on the trickle down, look how good it worked in Kansas. There are many studies about different economic policies but why argue with a rightist. Every liberal I know in West Virginia works and everyone I know gets a check thinks the Hispanics are ******* them instead of the GOP but they gotta get that MAGA hat.

 

[atlkvb]

I thought I read that Chicago is doing this and they are 200 billion in debt.

I thought they were practicing it in North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba and they're all sh*t holes![winking]

 

[Keyser76]

So is anyone out there explaining how this all would work in a Capitalistic free enterprise economy? Especially how it's paid for?

Why don't you explain how well tax breaks for the rich trickles down? Use Kansas as an example.

 

[Keyser76]

I thought they were practicing it in North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba and they're all sh*t holes![winking]

WTF? They don't practice anything in North Korea, I guess you got tired of defending Biff, did ya watch him today? He makes ya look stupid.

 

[atlkvb]

Take away all of the so called "welfare" payments to everyone in West Virginia and see how many "working folks" businesses would go under because every dime of that welfare is spent in the state, corporate welfare is not and costs way more. Not here to argue with ya cause when the haves resent the have nots and then vote to give tax breaks to Corporations I tune out. But hey, keep waiting on the trickle down, look how good it worked in Kansas. There are many studies about different economic policies but why argue with a rightist. Every liberal I know in West Virginia works and everyone I know gets a check thinks the Hispanics are ****ing them instead of the GOP but they gotta get that MAGA hat.

Keyser I'm Praying the Democrats and Left adopt this and take it to the voters in the Fall. We (on the Right) need this to run against them and turn a coming "Red Wave" landslide into a political funeral for Leftists.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

So is anyone out there explaining how this all would work in a Capitalistic free enterprise economy? Especially how it's paid for?

Few different plans. I think Gates and Musk propose taxing robots to help pay. Clearly the money will be coming from taxpayers, as is welfare, tax credits, etc. currently do.

 

[Mntneer]

I think the origin of this is Libertarian-types rather than leftists although it has picked up some steam on the left. The notion behind UBI (Universal Basic Income) is that everyone...from the poorest to Bill Gates...gets a certain amount. And plus it means the giant welfare bureaucracy would go away. That's the ideal anyway.

There is a Democrat running for POTUS with this as a major part of his platform, although I don't think he was in politics before this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_(entrepreneur)

That's the farthest thing from a Libertarian philosophy.

 

[atlkvb]

WTF? They don't practice anything in North Korea, I guess you got tired of defending Biff, did ya watch him today? He makes ya look stupid.

Actually I'm glad he threw that "no meddling" crap right back in their (media's) faces Keyser. Even you...the omniscient Keyser can't explain what the Russians are up to while you insist they are knee deep in it.

Carry on.

 

[atlkvb]

Few different plans. I think Gates and Musk propose taxing robots to help pay. Clearly the money will be coming from taxpayers, as is welfare, tax credits, etc. currently do.

Brilliant. Taxing robots. At least they wouldn't protest.

 

[atlkvb]

Why don't you explain how well tax breaks for the rich trickles down? Use Kansas as an example.

Hey Keyser, how is it you need rich people to make Socialism work? What happens when you run out of their money? Who gets the sh*t taxed of them next? Oh wait, Coop said some Leftists want to tax robots! That'll work.

 

[atlkvb]

There is a Democrat running for POTUS with this as a major part of his platform, although I don't think he was in politics before this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_(entrepreneur)

I don't think he has much of a future either if he's peddling this.

 

[TarHeelEer]

So is anyone out there explaining how this all would work in a Capitalistic free enterprise economy? Especially how it's paid for?

There are going to be major job kill-off's in the next 20 years. Some coming sooner than others. A lot of facets of the movie Minority Report are not far away at all (I'm developing some now).

It will have to come from corporations.

 

[atlkvb]

explain how well tax breaks for the rich trickles down?

Socialism doesn't work without "rich" people Keyser. So the very folks you despise, you still need keep around in order to run your Socialist utopia. So within your giant income redistribution schemes you'd better make sure you leave at least few at the top so you can continue to drain their wealth...otherwise you'll have everyone making the same amount of money, no wealth creation, everyone poor, no growth, and a sh*t hole economy because no one will have enough incentive or be able to earn and keep more money to tax away and give away to someone else.

Oh wait (look at my sig pic)

 

[atlkvb]

There are going to be major job kill-off's in the next 20 years. Some coming sooner than others. A lot of facets of the movie Minority Report are not far away at all (I'm developing some now).

It will have to come from corporations.

Then we'll be able to pay for what it costs to buy things from them if they're funding all of the non productive incomes...on our limited "basic wages" ?

OK.

 

[TarHeelEer]

I don't think he has much of a future either if he's peddling this.

Not yet, it'll be a big topic in 5-10 years. Retail will be gutted first, and it will start in next 3 years.

 

[atlkvb]

Not yet, it'll be a big topic in 5-10 years. Retail will be gutted first, and it will start in next 3 years.

The sad and unfortunate thing about this THE, is there are many economically illiterate Americans who will actually buy into this snake oil...so poor is their economic education and misunderstanding of what drives our free enterprise Capitalistic system.

Sad really.

 

[TarHeelEer]

The sad and unfortunate thing about this THE, is there are many economically illiterate Americans who will actually buy into this snake oil...so poor is their economic education and misunderstanding of what drives our free enterprise Capitalistic system.

Sad really.

I don't know that it's snake oil. It's going to take significantly less people to manufacture, ship, distribute, and sell merchandise, with the same demand (and increases) we've always had. SIGNIFICANTLY.

Welfare is the right way to handle it for our society? I don't think so. This is the biggest upheaval that will happen since the gas engine, and current government is not prepared for it.

 

[atlkvb]

Few different plans. I think Gates and Musk propose taxing robots to help pay. Clearly the money will be coming from taxpayers, as is welfare, tax credits, etc. currently do.

Tax credits allow you keep what you've already earned or don't have to pay. Tax payments or tax bills force you to pay to Government what you've already earned. The money belongs to the wage earner or entrepreneur who provided a service or product that someone paid for, not the Government. Government simply confiscates earnings, then redistributes it. It creates nothing.

 

[atlkvb]

I don't know that it's snake oil. It's going to take significantly less people to manufacture, ship, distribute, and sell merchandise, with the same demand (and increases) we've always had. SIGNIFICANTLY.

Welfare is the right way to handle it for our society? I don't think so. This is the biggest upheaval that will happen since the gas engine, and current government is not prepared for it.

Robots have to be designed, built, maintained, and financed, and you'll still need people to program and monitor them. Machines make us more productive, but they don't eliminate the need for human capital both physical and intellectual. Automobiles help us from walking great distances, but their arrival didn't eliminate the need for people. Folks just started assembling horseless carriages instead of whips and buggies.

Cars are machines, so are computers. We don't have to write letters anymore and send them in the snail mail, but now we have chat rooms, message boards, server farms and cloud management companies. I'm not afraid of robots & automation, but to suggest we won't still have a need for humans and human capital is to misplace their (robots & machines) significance which I believe will be simply to make us more productive.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Tax credits allow you keep what you've already earned or don't have to pay. Tax payments or tax bills force you to pay to Government what you've already earned. The money belongs to the wage earner or entrepreneur who provided a service or product that someone paid for, not the Government. Government simply confiscates earnings, then redistributes it. It creates nothing.

I envision the 40 hour workweek going away. I see the minimum wage going away. Those that are employed will be high demand areas (automation, design, R&D, and support people to keep the robots moving), or low knowledge/experience that are repetitive in nature. Cameras with AI will watch everything. Some of those will try to sell you stuff. Some will make sure you're doing whatever task right.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

Tax credits allow you keep what you've already earned or don't have to pay. Tax payments or tax bills force you to pay to Government what you've already earned. The money belongs to the wage earner or entrepreneur who provided a service or product that someone paid for, not the Government. Government simply confiscates earnings, then redistributes it. It creates nothing.

Refundable tax credits are nothing more than welfare. No other way to spin it.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

I envision the 40 hour workweek going away. I see the minimum wage going away. Those that are employed will be high demand areas (automation, design, R&D, and support people to keep the robots moving), or low knowledge/experience that are repetitive in nature. Cameras with AI will watch everything. Some of those will try to sell you stuff. Some will make sure you're doing whatever task right.

I still like to jerk off manually.

 

[atlkvb]

I envision the 40 hour workweek going away. I see the minimum wage going away. Those that are employed will be high demand areas (automation, design, R&D, and support people to keep the robots moving), or low knowledge/experience that are repetitive in nature. Cameras with AI will watch everything. Some of those will try to sell you stuff. Some will make sure you're doing whatever task right.

We'll have the robots watching us watch them![winking]

 

[Airport]

Robots have to be designed, built, maintained, and financed, and you'll still need people to program and monitor them. Machines make us more productive, but they don't eliminate the need for human capital both physical and intellectual. Automobiles help us from walking great distances, but their arrival didn't eliminate the need for people. Folks just started assembling horseless carriages instead of whips and buggies.

Cars are machines, so are computers. We don't have to write letters anymore and send them in the snail mail, but now we have chat rooms, message boards, server farms and cloud management companies. I'm not afraid of robots & automation, but to suggest we won't still have a need for humans and human capital is to misplace their (robots & machines) significance which I believe will be simply to make us more productive.

Can you imagine the uproar if liberals were around in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Damn, all those horses are going to be put to death. No more wagon trains, the guides will be out of business. People need to let business be business. When govt gets involved, fubar happens

 

[Airport]

I still like to jerk off manually.

Nothing will replace mother thumb and her four daughters!

 

[atlkvb]

Refundable tax credits are nothing more than welfare. No other way to spin it.

If it's "refundable" that means the money was either not taken from whoever earned it, or it was confiscated from someone who paid more on what they earned so Government can give it away to someone who didn't earn it. Like "earned income tax credits". Those are straight transfer payments financed through confiscatory taxation on higher wage earners.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Robots have to be designed, built, maintained, and financed, and you'll still need people to program and monitor them. Machines make us more productive, but they don't eliminate the need for human capital both physical and intellectual. Automobiles help us from walking great distances, but their arrival didn't eliminate the need for people. Folks just started assembling horseless carriages instead of whips and buggies.

Cars are machines, so are computers. We don't have to write letters anymore and send them in the snail mail, but now we have chat rooms, message boards, server farms and cloud management companies. I'm not afraid of robots & automation, but to suggest we won't still have a need for humans and human capital is to misplace their (robots & machines) significance which I believe will be simply to make us more productive.

Not accurate. Companies aren't working on automation to make people more productive.

 

[TarHeelEer]

I still like to jerk off manually.

I have you down as no sex robot. Got it.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

There are going to be major job kill-off's in the next 20 years. Some coming sooner than others. A lot of facets of the movie Minority Report are not far away at all (I'm developing some now).

It will have to come from corporations.

ie tax the robots.

 

[atlkvb]

Can you imagine the uproar if liberals were around in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Damn, all those horses are going to be put to death. No more wagon trains, the guides will be out of business. People need to let business be business. When govt gets involved, fubar happens

Sh*t Airport imagine if you were in the telephone booth business in the late 80's? Did you like watching all of those cell phone towers going up? Can you find a phone booth anywhere now except at airport off ramps near boarding gates?

Suppose you were in the vinyl record recording business when digital music came long? Or imagine how executives at Kodak and Polaroid felt as they watched the elimination of their business models as these same cell phones started snapping digital photos? What happened to those folks and their jobs?

They're now into digital imaging![smoke]

 

[mule_eer]

Pretty sure one of those Eurotrash countries tried it and it failed miserably.

Finland tried it, quit after 2 years. I think it has been proposed in Switzerland also, but I don't think it has caught on there, at least not yet.

The idea is to drop the bureaucracy of the welfare and unemployment systems. You have a job? Great, here's your UBI payment on top of that pay check. You lost your job? Too bad, here's your UBI payment. So, no one gets to file for unemployment, no one applies for welfare, no one gets food stamps. If you are a citizen and drawing breath, here's your check. I think some proposals say that Social Security goes away under this too. If you paint it like that, it doesn't sound too bad. The problem is that the UBI needs to be somewhat significant. Given that this is your safety net, you have to be able to find shelter and food on UBI. That's expensive. You can change the tax code to tax everything earned above the UBI. That gives you some income, but that's going to be a net loser for some folks - here's your $1000 UBI, please send us your $1500 for income tax. That kind of stuff stifles incentives for people to earn more, unless it is a lot more.

In short, I've heard of it. I don't care for it. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. You more than eat up the savings from cutting overhead with money that you have to pay out, and you have to pay everybody. Also, if you think the arguments over minimum wage are bad, wait until it comes time to determine what the UBI should be.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

If it's "refundable" that means the money was either not taken from whoever earned it, or it was confiscated from someone who paid more on what they earned so Government can give it away to someone who didn't earn it. Like "earned income tax credits". Those are straight transfer payments financed through confiscatory taxation on higher wage earners.

ie welfare. Thanks for agreeing.

 

[atlkvb]

Nothing will replace mother thumb and her four daughters!

Now that's funny.

 

[atlkvb]

Finland tried it, quit after 2 years. I think it has been proposed in Switzerland also, but I don't think it has caught on there, at least not yet.

The idea is to drop the bureaucracy of the welfare and unemployment systems. You have a job? Great, here's your UBI payment on top of that pay check. You lost your job? Too bad, here's your UBI payment. So, no one gets to file for unemployment, no one applies for welfare, no one gets food stamps. If you are a citizen and drawing breath, here's your check. I think some proposals say that Social Security goes away under this too. If you paint it like that, it doesn't sound too bad. The problem is that the UBI needs to be somewhat significant. Given that this is your safety net, you have to be able to find shelter and food on UBI. That's expensive. You can change the tax code to tax everything earned above the UBI. That gives you some income, but that's going to be a net loser for some folks - here's your $1000 UBI, please send us your $1500 for income tax. That kind of stuff stifles incentives for people to earn more, unless it is a lot more.

In short, I've heard of it. I don't care for it. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. You more than eat up the savings from cutting overhead with money that you have to pay out, and you have to pay everybody. Also, if you think the arguments over minimum wage are bad, wait until it comes time to determine what the UBI should be.

Well stated. Let's not even talk about making loans or creating investment capital to create new projects and/or business ventures. Yikes!

 

[WVUCOOPER]

Finland tried it, quit after 2 years. I think it has been proposed in Switzerland also, but I don't think it has caught on there, at least not yet.

The idea is to drop the bureaucracy of the welfare and unemployment systems. You have a job? Great, here's your UBI payment on top of that pay check. You lost your job? Too bad, here's your UBI payment. So, no one gets to file for unemployment, no one applies for welfare, no one gets food stamps. If you are a citizen and drawing breath, here's your check. I think some proposals say that Social Security goes away under this too. If you paint it like that, it doesn't sound too bad. The problem is that the UBI needs to be somewhat significant. Given that this is your safety net, you have to be able to find shelter and food on UBI. That's expensive. You can change the tax code to tax everything earned above the UBI. That gives you some income, but that's going to be a net loser for some folks - here's your $1000 UBI, please send us your $1500 for income tax. That kind of stuff stifles incentives for people to earn more, unless it is a lot more.

In short, I've heard of it. I don't care for it. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. You more than eat up the savings from cutting overhead with money that you have to pay out, and you have to pay everybody. Also, if you think the arguments over minimum wage are bad, wait until it comes time to determine what the UBI should be.

Is it starting point? Hopefully. As THE has been saying, it's coming. Thankfully our congress, from both sides of the aisle, will act maturely and early enough to ease our way into the future and will NEVER exploit any part of this for political gain.