We all see that Grayson just hadn't been playing like we're all expecting him to. I think he's trying so hard to make sure Bagley and the other freshmen are getting shots that it has affected him game. I realize Bagley is an awesome offensive talent, but something just hasn't seemed right with Allen. I go back to the Michigan St game. Bagley goes down very early, and we know who takes over. In that game, he had the same swag as his sophomore year, or any Tar Hole game, or at least I think so. To me, there just seems to be a little bit more energy in the team when he plays well, which I think is his way of being a good leader. I'm interested to know what you guys think.
A thought on Grayson...
- Thread starter Mac9192
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I think Grayson is such an unselfish player, it occasionally hurts us....Perhaps he gets so caught up in distribution he overlooks his own offensive game, and then when he feels he must step up his own offense it comes off as forced??? (NCSU last wk for instance).
Certainly in the MSU game it was just a natural thing. Marvin went down, and his number came up!Fortunately there's lots of season left, and I think he will be fine.
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Yeah, I think he's too unselfish, and that it's led to some indecisiveness. His assists are up, but his ft attempts, and rebounding are down. He wants to win, and I think he'll do anything to help this team win...but sometimes that may be by being more assertive. Hope he figures out the right balance, and if he does, we'll be that much more tougher of an out.
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Grayson is clearly at his best when he isn't deferring and is "the guy." Look no further than 2016 and the MSU game for this. Grayson seems to struggle mightily when he isn't the best player, and is asked to fit in. Look no further than last season, which was a complete fail for Grayson. The 2016 team wasn't gonna win a championship, we didn't have the horses, and Grayson seemed to play all season with a sense of freedom. I don't believe a team can win a title if Grayson is clearly the best player.
The MSU game, Marvin went down, and Grayson reverted back to 2016 Grayson, it was awesome and it worked. Now, he hit 2 crazy 3's at the end, both were very low percentage shots, but they went in and thank god, but we shouldn't count on those going in next time. And honestly, if we played MSU 10 times without Bagley, I think we maybe win twice. (thank god Izzo doesn't know what a zone offense is.)
With everything said, Bagley is clearly the best player, but Grayson coming back for his senior season was just as important (if not more) than us landing Bagley. One, because of basic roster construction, we lacked guards and had a surplus of bigs. Two, because we needed a senior to lead.
Grayson just needs to figure out his role with this team. We need his 3 point shooting, his free throw shooting, and him getting into the lane. We don't need him scoring 25 a game. When Grayson is hot, keep letting it fly. My issue is, in both our losses, Grayson was ice cold, and the bigs couldn't be stopped, but Grayson kept shooting and missing. (Gary and Tre too)
The MSU game, Marvin went down, and Grayson reverted back to 2016 Grayson, it was awesome and it worked. Now, he hit 2 crazy 3's at the end, both were very low percentage shots, but they went in and thank god, but we shouldn't count on those going in next time. And honestly, if we played MSU 10 times without Bagley, I think we maybe win twice. (thank god Izzo doesn't know what a zone offense is.)
With everything said, Bagley is clearly the best player, but Grayson coming back for his senior season was just as important (if not more) than us landing Bagley. One, because of basic roster construction, we lacked guards and had a surplus of bigs. Two, because we needed a senior to lead.
Grayson just needs to figure out his role with this team. We need his 3 point shooting, his free throw shooting, and him getting into the lane. We don't need him scoring 25 a game. When Grayson is hot, keep letting it fly. My issue is, in both our losses, Grayson was ice cold, and the bigs couldn't be stopped, but Grayson kept shooting and missing. (Gary and Tre too)
I agree. At least twice on Wed. Grayson gave up open shots (one a layup) to pass to a freshman. Maybe that was just because the game was a blowout but he's got to remember to be 1b or 1c on the list of offensive weapons.
Agree with basically everything you said. But I checked and grayson was 5/20 in the BC game, but 3/9 in the NC State game. Nine shots in 39 min of play isn't all that much.
He's struggled to find his role on offense this year in a lot of games. This year, though, should be a good learning experience for him as far as his future. He's not going to be offensive option 1 or 2 on an NBA team. I hope he grows over the next couple of months, figures out how to play in this role, and excels. He certainly has the talent for it and from what I've heard, the work ethic and desire.
Getting back to one of your points... I want to throw things at my TV every time we're struggling on offense and go three, four, five, consecutive possessions without working our offense through our bigs. Our bigs have way more talent than the opposition every night. We shouldn't ever go more than three possessions in a row without giving Bagley or Wendell a chance to touch the ball.
I actually did throw my remote at the TV during the Nc State game.
Grayson only shot 9 times that game, one play really sticks out to me and it’s been mentioned already. We were rolling early, up about 28-17, we got either a turnover or a missed shot, Duval had the ball, Grayson was WIDE OPEN in the corner, Duval tried to hit Javin for a dunk and turned it over.
Grayson was never the same after, that’s not how a senior should lead, we win that game easy if Grayson is able to get past that play.
To say Izzo is going to beat K 8 of 10, with the talent K has this season is complete CRAZINESS. This guy named Wendell Carter.... pretty good hiself
Saying Izzo would win 5 is strongly going against the odds itself
That’s all
Saying Izzo would win 5 is strongly going against the odds itself
That’s all
Maybe he's just trying too hard. I don't think he is as aggressive as he used to be perhaps because of the target that is on his back. He surely doesn't drive to the basket like he used too. I say to heck with being cautious about the refs eyeing him and play his game. OFC
I see what you're saying to an extent. I'm not so sure I buy the "team can't win a title if he's clearly the best player" line. It's all about chemistry and mojo. When he's on, there's more of both. Sometimes, as good as Bagley is, we look a lot like the JJ led teams, where everyone gets caught standing around just watching him. Granted, Bagley is special, but we have a team that will be at its best if Grayson is scoring at least 20 a game. I'll go as far as saying if he scores 25 in any game, we don't lose. He knows how to play team ball, and everyone is better when he is better.
We definitely won’t lose if Grayson scores 25 a game, because Bagley is gonna get 25 just by walking in the arena. Unless everyone else completely poops the bed, that’s an easy win. Could Bagley/Carter find Grayson more when he’s open? Yeah, for sure, along with Trevon looking for Grayson in transition. We have a good thing going with our current offense, being ran through Bagley, we were the 3rd best in the Ken-Pom era before the NC State game. I think we’re fine there.
We all know this team’s future will be determined by the defense. Grayson has his limitations on that end, but still can be a director/leader on that end, like Battier/Scheyer/Cook did.
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Its fun to watch a guy get 25 or 30, but I like the scoring balance we had in the Pitt game where 3 or 4 guys get around 15 and 3 or 4 get around 10. I think that's a much tougher team to defend than one that has 2 guys getting 25-30 and 3 or 4 in single digits. some good ball movement and finally finding the open guy for a high percentage shot works for me every time.
Boom! I was waiting for someone to say that he could get the ball a little bit more from the others. I tend to agree with Hart and Dirt about Grayson.
My point about Grayson though is watch the team's energy when he is good.
I agree that Grayson is too selfless but also his shooting is in a slump. We have so many willing shot takers now G doesn't seem to get as many attempts.
Shot selection is an issue too. Up 11 vs NCSU, GRAYSON took a very diificult/forced shot very early in the shot clock. That was followed by 2 or 3 threes also taken early in the shot clock. One by Tre and one by Bagley. On the verge of blowing State out, lazy offense totally derailed us and let State back in the game. Grayson has done this a couple of times this year, as have others. Grayson is the last guy we should see this from. Most of the time he is extremely unselfish for such a gifted offensive player. I nust dont get it.
Someone said it early in the season that how Grayson goes so goes Duke. I believed it then and I believe it more now. He doesn’t need to put up 25 points every night but some nights he does, IE MI State. He willed us to win that game, put us on his back and got it done, and he will be called on to do it again in a critical situation down the road if we are going deep into the ACC and NCAAs. I believe in him. K believes in him. He has to believe in himself.
I will say I think the situation is challenging for him with the Uber freshman who each in their own right are high profile, game changing players.
I will say I think the situation is challenging for him with the Uber freshman who each in their own right are high profile, game changing players.
Grayson in 2016 got to the foul line a lot and got a plethora of points from free throws. He is not doing that this year or much last year.
Teams are also focusing on stopping Grayson on the perimeter. Duval is not a threat to knock down the jumper only Trent can hit the three ball consistently amoung Duke Starters not named Grayson Allen.
Grayson is a really good three point shooter and is explosive off of two feet, but is not a quick twich athlete or fluid and agile.
Grayson also doesn’t have the foot work or mid range game that Kennard had last year.
Teams are also focusing on stopping Grayson on the perimeter. Duval is not a threat to knock down the jumper only Trent can hit the three ball consistently amoung Duke Starters not named Grayson Allen.
Grayson is a really good three point shooter and is explosive off of two feet, but is not a quick twich athlete or fluid and agile.
Grayson also doesn’t have the foot work or mid range game that Kennard had last year.
What I see is a kid trying to avoid getting hurt. Maybe he’s dealing with something now...pretty sure he had an injury last year.
What made Allen special was the fearlessness to drive and try to dunk. We may see it when the lights turn on
What made Allen special was the fearlessness to drive and try to dunk. We may see it when the lights turn on
I think he knows what he is capable of and right now just wants to get the team involved and confidence up. I could be wrong just my 2cents
This. There are going to be games where we say “THATS the Grayson I’m used to.” And he is simply not needed to be that every game and he simply may not be capable of that every game.
I feel like maybe his wrist injury is bothering him more than what he/Duke is letting on. We all know they keep these things so close to the chest. It seems obvious he doesn't feel comfortable with his shot.
Yea something has to be bothering him. Grayson was pretty much a no show yesterday. Only had 2 pts and they were FT’s.
Outside of the shooting though, Grayson still had a good game getting everyone involved. As weird as this is, but if yesterday's Grayson played last season just like that, we might have gone all the way.....
Yes I agree. He did get everyone involved and your right. Sometimes that can be more important than scoring.
That's because everyone knows he's the leader this year. Last year was supposed to be set up like this year. Had too many guys that wanted to be the man, and it was supposed to be Grayson leading last year as well, but he didn't, as we all know. I think there were too many selfish players. Matt, Amile, and Grayson were team players surrounded by a few guys that wanted their 20+.
I'm guessing that means you are calling Kennard, Tatum, and Jackson selfish?? Couldn't disagree more. They were definitely all guys who were much more gifted on the offensive end than the defensive end (much like Grayson). And us not having a PG, forced those guys to play a lot of 1-on-1 basketball. Calling them selfish though, I don't think us Duke fans should label any of our players selfish. What about the Syracuse game that Grayson single-handily lost last year by taking 2 awful 30-foot 3's near the end of the game, was that selfish?
Last year is just a rough discussion to be had, nothing good will ever come of it. Looking at Tatum on the Celtics though, it blows my mind we didn't win the whole title with him. Tatum plus 4 boring role players might have made a better team than we had last year.
Agree 100 percent.Could not believe it when many said Jayson should be benched after the State game last year
I think last year we just had so many injuries and distractions, they never really had a chance to become a single unit. The talent was there, as the ACC tournament showed, but they never really gelled because of all the issues that were mostly out of their control.
Grayson wasn't good that game, can't deny it at all. If I remember correctly though, we were like 7-25 or something from 3 and they banked in a 25 footer towards the end of the game.
Your last paragraph kind of backs up my post about too many guys that wanted to shine. You said Tatum plus 4 role players might have been a better team. You saying Kennard and Frank hurt us some then?
Last year was a dumpster fire. It wasn’t one thing. Hell, it was a lot of things.
Injuries to start the season. Grayson tripping against Elon. Coach K being out. No true point guard. No team defense. No ‘verve’, to steal a line from K. I don’t think when K was there he was at his best, either. A. Dumpster. Fire.
We were incredibly skilled, but just about everything that could have went wrong, did. It’s just one of those seasons. I’d probably call it the biggest letdown since 1999. We had K. We had a solid veteran core. We had stars. Then, when the season was a mess, we won the ACC Tournament and made us all believe....only to eight days later leave us shaking our head. Highs and lows. More lows, though.
Injuries to start the season. Grayson tripping against Elon. Coach K being out. No true point guard. No team defense. No ‘verve’, to steal a line from K. I don’t think when K was there he was at his best, either. A. Dumpster. Fire.
We were incredibly skilled, but just about everything that could have went wrong, did. It’s just one of those seasons. I’d probably call it the biggest letdown since 1999. We had K. We had a solid veteran core. We had stars. Then, when the season was a mess, we won the ACC Tournament and made us all believe....only to eight days later leave us shaking our head. Highs and lows. More lows, though.
Last year's team was just a bad mix. We definitely had the talent, but we lacked a PG and a true C (since Harry never really "got there.") Us not having a true PG, again made guys play a lot of 1-on-1 ball. Which from afar, can appear as selfish, but I'm willing to bet that Kennard, Tatum, and Jackson were willing to do ANYTHING for Duke to win. It turns out, that them playing 1-on-1 probably was our best chance to win, again given the poor roster construction. Literally the only issue I have here is calling Duke players selfish, I just think that's wrong.
Kennard and Frank didn't hurt us at all, the issue was, what they did best, we didn't really need. Kennard was amazing, but if trades were allowed in college basketball, than us trading Kennard (I believe he led the ACC in scoring) for an average ACC point guard would have actually made sense.
That's kind of the point I'm making about Grayson now with this team vs last year. Too many guys wanted to be the man last year. This year Grayson, Carter and Trent must accept that Bagley is the best offensive weapon. For us to have a chance to go deep into March, true team ball must be played, something not done last year.