The don't clog the board with final/stay thoughts from NCAAs, post them here, thread

Special THANK YOU to Jeff Byers who saved me from having to listen to the ESPN clowns!!!
I do not have ESPN+ so I was able to follow the PSU wrestlers even when ESPN would cut to other bouts.
At one time during the tournament there were 3 PSU taking place. He did an amazing job of keeping me updated on all three...simply masterful & amazing!!!

CTStall said:

Change the rule to stop the edge wrestling. Make it first step out a warning, after that it's a point every time. Wrestlers would use it as a scoring tactic,and it would force more inner mat engagement.
After 5 it's a disqualification.
Also crack down on head slapping. First is warning, and then same as above for points .No issue with head pressure but the slapping creates the space that allows guys not to wrestle.
If matches go OT,first point wins it. No time limit. Most matches would end in 2 minutes with step out rule in place .

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Amazingly, no freestyle matches end in 2 minutes with the stepout rule (though I get your point about OT).

Just put in the freestyle stepout rule already. The guys all wrestle freestyle, so they know how to return to center -- some just choose not to because they don't have to. Also would greatly reduce the number of stoppages, thereby increasing action.

So much simpler than the current boundary rule and any possible modification to it.

Foreverinbluejeans57 said:

Could be wrong but I think Jayden is in state college now. The length is a concern but he’d be a fun watch for sure

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That's the rumor. Or that he's moving to State College after the school year.

I'm sure @johnstownsteel has a car and a cell phone.

mh-larch said:

Where was Tom Ryan this weekend? Locked on the bus again? I didn't see much of him, in his wrestler's corner or otherwise. Maybe I just missed him, but I saw all the other coaches of the prominnet programs.

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I’ve seen the “locked in the bus” reference multiple times this weekend. Someone help me out what this is.
TIA

GregPickel said:

Also, a job well done by @SlipperyPete for all of his hard work this week, to @Tom McAndrew for getting the threads up and PBP, and to all of YOU for following along and discussing the action here all season and tournament long. Soon hitting the road home from Cleveland and hope whoever else is has a safe trip home.

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… and by you. All facets of covering the program—all tournament, all season.

delete..got merged

OhioLion said:

I’ve seen the “locked in the bus” reference multiple times this weekend. Someone help me out what this is.
TIA

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See the threads from Big Tens. One of our posters snapped a pic of Ryan on the bus with a screwdriver in hand, apparently trying to get out with the door stuck.

If I had to guess what Cael is referencing I’d guess it’s the transfer portal. I’d imagine some of his guys are being approached.

@Tom McAndrew and any other wrestling officials.
You’re in charge of the rules committee for the upcoming off season - what changes would you make to any rules on the mat?
If you visit “reaction time”, please get Jeff Byers involved as he is definitely agitated with this.
Thank you

El_Jefe said:

I loathe the rideout and won't shed a single tear if/when it's eliminated. Incentivized top stalling.

But the one finals match where it would've made the biggest difference was 141. Mendez was clearly better on top than Vega. And yet he took an ill-advised shot in OT that cost him the title.

I doubt many guys enter a match trying to win in rideouts. It's a high-risk strategy for a lot of reasons. But a lot of guys do try to bleed out the first 6:30 of the match, and are willing to risk going to rideouts as a result.

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1) did we ever have ties in wrestling during the regular season? Maybe in the 70s?
2) what would you prefer over rideouts?

My takeaways:

• Gutted for SVN. I think this was his best chance to NC.
• Duke would've been a NC if not for the screwjob.
• Mess is the Hodge and a freak of nature. Unfortunately Caliendo ended up being the same dirty, sore loser as the Brands.
• Hate seeing us win 2 matches on stall points.
• The casuals I watched with were bored half the time.
• Surprised a RSFR Cole didn't AA.
• Never in a million years did I foresee Blaze finish the season with 3 losses. I hope he RS.
• Loved seeing Ohio State lose out. Surprised to see Iowa in 4th, good for them. Hope the Brands stick around for our entertainment.
• OSU won Saturday night. They exceeded expectations. Even their sole loss kept our bonus point machine from bonus and another record. Well played.
• ANOTHER NEW PSU SCORING RECORD. And 4 NC's!

Pretty happy with how the Gophers performed as a whole and obviously with McEnelly. I think Volk is fully capable of being a the 2nd best 125 in the country and I think could’ve given Lilledahl a better match than McGowan had, but he’s always good for a head scratcher like losing to Moran.

Gut wrenching loss for Vombaur in the blood round that I am sure he would’ve won if not for wearing what looked like a 20 pound knee brace the whole tournament.

Millard and Hopke had reasonable freshman seasons and I think they’ll make big jumps with healthy offseasons.

Andrew Sparks going out with an AA performance with wins over guys like Dee Lockett and Will Denny will be something I remember forever.

Then Max f****n McEnelly, obviously, is the man. I’m biased as they come, but I can’t see how even opposing fans can’t like him. He’s just a good kid and he wrestles hard. Two more years of him will be very fun.

PSU had 5 of the top 10 scorers: Levi 1, Mesenbrink 3, Barr 4, Lilledahl 9, Van Ness 10.

Duke and Welsh were 13 and 14.

Rope-a-dope was tied for 15th with runners-up Davino and Bastida, behind 4 other runners-up and behind 3rd place Duke. He scored zero bonus -- knock us over with a feather.

Blaze was tied for 25th with Sinclair. He scored 1 less point than finalist McGowan, and 0.5 pt less than finalists Taylor and Merrill.

poorwrestler said:

Pretty happy with how the Gophers performed as a whole and obviously with McEnelly. I think Volk is fully capable of being a the 2nd best 125 in the country and I think could’ve given Lilledahl a better match than McGowan had, but he’s always good for a head scratcher like losing to Moran.

Gut wrenching loss for Vombaur in the blood round that I am sure he would’ve won if not for wearing what looked like a 20 pound knee brace the whole tournament.

Millard and Hopke had reasonable freshman seasons and I think they’ll make big jumps with healthy offseasons.

Andrew Sparks going out with an AA performance with wins over guys like Dee Lockett and Will Denny will be something I remember forever.

Then Max f****n McEnelly, obviously, is the man. I’m biased as they come, but I can’t see how even opposing fans can’t like him. He’s just a good kid and he wrestles hard. Two more years of him will be very fun.

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McEnelly is an absolute hoss. I didn't have a good feeling for Rocco going into that match. Sparks also always wrestles tough. Nice to see him AA.

poorwrestler said:

Pretty happy with how the Gophers performed as a whole and obviously with McEnelly. I think Volk is fully capable of being a the 2nd best 125 in the country and I think could’ve given Lilledahl a better match than McGowan had, but he’s always good for a head scratcher like losing to Moran.

Gut wrenching loss for Vombaur in the blood round that I am sure he would’ve won if not for wearing what looked like a 20 pound knee brace the whole tournament.

Millard and Hopke had reasonable freshman seasons and I think they’ll make big jumps with healthy offseasons.

Andrew Sparks going out with an AA performance with wins over guys like Dee Lockett and Will Denny will be something I remember forever.

Then Max f****n McEnelly, obviously, is the man. I’m biased as they come, but I can’t see how even opposing fans can’t like him. He’s just a good kid and he wrestles hard. Two more years of him will be very fun.

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McEnelly is an easy guy to root for anyway.

His Friday night interview was endearing. He likely made a lot of fans with that, outside of Iowa City.

Fred8811 said:

New rule - must have at least 1 TD to win.

The 125 and 184 finals were beyond boring and hurt wrestling.

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Agree. In addition no Ride out. Go 2 minute periods until someone gets a TD. Guys won’t stall to get to Ride outs

I feel slightly like Iowa must have felt winning the NC with only Spencer as a champ, and we had 4.

We are blessed and it is not the same, but I never bounced back completely after Duke got totally screwed. I would like to know the credentials and allegiances of the mystery men in the back room that took a national championship away from PJ. Yes, he would have beat Taylor again.

I think a decade and a half of dominance has definitely inflicted the mind consciousness of the wrestling community. The benefit of the doubt is absolutely flowing in the other direction. The PSU tax is real!!!

The book seems to be out with how to wrestle the good guys as well. Retreat to the edge, don't shoot, try to avoid outright stalling and push matches to the 3rd , SV or TB and very good kids have a real shot at pulling one out on PSU. It bit PJ, SVN, and nearly Luke, and Levi - granted both Levi and Luke weren't overtly threatened, anything can happen in a 1 point match.

The antedote is power through and get that first takedown in the FIRST period. Not everyone can be Mitchell, but his style is how you counter the defensive wrestler. He knows he wins 60% of scrambles when he initiates, so just go do it. Take chances, often!

I think Marcus needs to get stronger, and MUCH more aggressive against elite competition. He streamsrolls kids at the next tier down, so it's in him, just not always. A RS is a good thing

Cael adjusts constantly, but I really hope that just go get it in the first becomes a much stronger focus, granted we already out-takedown the competition 10-1 otherwise. Our mat wrestling has some challenges to work on as well both riding and escaping - once again, particularly against the best.

Cael's montra is always getting better, and simply winning another and setting a record will not keep him satisfied. These are great times, but I have a hard time holding back the greed.

ElDuce said:

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Well, he will one day be able to say 'I once refused to shake the hand of a Hodge winner and Olympic gold medalist'

Fred8811 said:

New rule - must have at least 1 TD to win.

The 125 and 184 finals were beyond boring and hurt wrestling.

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Let's say that Nebraska's 157 challenge failed and Robideau got NF3 instead of NF2.

Now you're saying that match goes into OT with a 5-2 score, and Taylor can't win with a takedown because that would merely tie the score.

Is that what we want?

We won by 50, next year probably 25-30, thereafter it's on!

This 4 year span, including next year, is insane, not too long ago we were on the edge of our seats at 197 Saturday evening.

I am to old for the stress of the old days.

vhsalum said:

If it’s 0-0, someone is getting hit with a stall in the first 1 minute. Automatic 1 point.

No more of this warning BS. The refs have already implored the wrestlers to engage.

if you run? Just like FS, you get hit, they stop the match and you go back to center. Run again? Hit again.

it’s simple stuff, but somehow the refs get away with choosing what rules they enforce. There is stalling in the rule book. And it doesn’t say it can only be called in the 3rd period AFTER you’ve verbally warned them 14 times.

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Absolutely agree with you that the fixes are extremely easy, simple and straightforward stuff.

Biggest issues are the subjectivity of stalling and takedowns because of the amount of power put into the lame Folk Officials hands who continually decide to change and violate the spirit of the seminal rules of wrestling with their disgraceful subjective rulings (their rulings, enabled by the way the rules are written, ROUTINELY reward the diametric opposite wrestler than what the seminal rules of wrestling call for - Folk Officials ROUTINELY reward the Defensive/Passive Wrestler's tactics and thereby effectively penalize the more active Offensive Wrestler - good example, never initiating action and intentionally stalemating attack after attack by the same defensive wrestler for the purpose of a restart, shortening the match and not giving up points is ILLEGAL PASSIVITY and called every time in Freestyle - it is never called in Folk which is ridiculous.).

Anyway, the simple solution is to take the subjectivity out of the rulebook for both Stalling and Takedowns:

1. For Takedowns - write the criteria, as soon as the are all met, it's a takedown (if you don't like 3-points of contact because it allows a "brush" to count, then change it to "3 points of clear support", IOW the 3rd point of contact has to be supporting weight intentionally or it doesn't count.). If a defender doesn't like instantaneous takedowns once the criteria are met, don't put your hand down, etc.... Would also be in favor of instantaneous takedown at edge where defender is partially or wholly OB once the Offensive wrestler either touches the second leg with his free hand OR reaches across and places his free hand on the far hip of the defending wrestler. Again, the defending wrestler doesn't want to give up this type of takedown - don't wrestle "back to the boundary" and attempting to use OB as a wrestling advantage.
2. For Stalling - the Rulebook has to become way more objective. Folk allows the entire rule of "passivity/stalling" to be in the subjective hands of the Official which is ridiculous and routinely butchered and MISAPPLIED (primarily by not being applied at all) by the Folk Officials. The first thing they need to do is create specific Objective Rules for different kinds of "passivity/stalling" just as they do in Free. Separate Rule for going fully OB (where both wrestlers end up going OB, it's the first to go OB) - 1 point penalty. Second, further specify "passivity stalling" into "Continuous Fleeing" or "passivity/stalling" (just as they do in Free). "Continuous Fleeing" (i.e., not just breaking one tie... and moving away... keeping opponent at a distance with your arm/hand....etc..., but doing it continuous one after another for more than say a 5 count) needs to be a separate rule - Penalty Point if you do it. Then they can keep their "Stall Warning" for other passivity and put the offender on a "30 Second Shot Clock" for a first offense - point given to other wrestler if no takedown. The institution of the "Fleeing Rule" prevents the other wrestler to simply Flee for 30 Seconds. Additional "passivity/stall" calls are point, point, 2 points, DQ.

Folk needs to take the Rulebook back out of the hands of these absurd Officials who REWARD the DIAMETRICALLY WRONG and INCORRECT WRESTLER and thereby enable this bs style of wrestling. Objectify the takedown rule - the moment all criteria are met, it's a takedown (if a wrestler doesn't want to get called on one of the criteria, such as a 3rd Point of Clear Support, then don't do it when defending... etc....). Objectify the "Stalling Rule" by creating specific forms of "stalling/passivity" as well as general stalling/passivity. Specifically, separate "stalling/passivity" Rule for going fully OB while your opponent is still all or partially inbounds - 1 point penalty, no warning. Separate "stalling/passivity" Rule for "Continuous Fleeing" - 1 point penalty, no warning. Everything else, such as never shooting and continuously giving ground while in a tie or opponent's stalking.... "hanging on" while engaged until stalemate (either via finger locking or just hanging on head or elbow, etc....)..... Stalemating opponents continuous shots (if you stalemate 3 consecutive shots by opponent - automatic stall call)..... falls into the general "Stall Call" - this will allow them to keep a form of a "Warning" on first call by putting offending wrestler on a 30 Second Shot Clock after first offense. 2nd offense point penalty, 3rd should be 2 points and I'd be in favor of DQ after 4th "General Stalling" Call. (keep in mind, going OB or Continuous Fleeing would no longer count under the General Stalling Rule, so they don't count toward the 4 General Stalling Call DQ.).

Take a look at the National Finals, how many times did we see wrestlers wrestling from a fully-OB position either engaged and often just "in space" while the clock continued to run because their Opponent was still Inbounds. Take a look at how many times outright Fleeing was allowed as a tactic. Take a look at how often "passivity" and continual defensiveness.... continually backing up...... continually stalemating your opponents attacks with no attacks of your own...... and back to boundary wrestling were allowed and enabled by the Mat Official. It's a complete embarrassment to Folk Wrestling - wrestlers making it to the Finals of the tournament AND STILL REFUSING TO WRESTLE, AND EARN, THE TITLE - just embarrassing to the sport - competitors trying to "back their way" into a title with these lame and embarrassing, and technically illegal tactics rather than go out and TAKE THE TITLE with their wrestling skill and scoring ability. Folk needs to take the RULEBOOK back out of the hands of the Officials and eliminate the subjectivity. Officials are there to ENFORCE the rules based on the objective criteria provided in the Rulebook, not interpret and make the rules as they go and see fit.

CTStall said:

Change the rule to stop the edge wrestling. Make it first step out a warning, after that it's a point every time. Wrestlers would use it as a scoring tactic,and it would force more inner mat engagement.
After 5 it's a disqualification.
Also crack down on head slapping. First is warning, and then same as above for points .No issue with head pressure but the slapping creates the space that allows guys not to wrestle.
If matches go OT,first point wins it. No time limit. Most matches would end in 2 minutes with step out rule in place .

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Ooh, I like the no time limit OT idea. Maybe I’d have a first OT be 2 minutes, but then go with your idea. Straight cage match.

NateBauer said:

Acknowledging Penn State wrestling team being dominant is great for Penn State, asking from a broader perspective, is Penn State wrestling team dominance good for college wrestling?

No agenda, I don’t follow the sport and wonder what the dynamics are for it as a whole over the past 15 years.

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PSU has improved the quality of the product on the mat. So: yes. Up to the other schools to improve their quality.

We hear this a lot, and it's a question nobody asked about the Gable Hawkeyes.

Ernie Ladd said:

Cael:

“We’re a blessed program. We follow the rules. There’s not a lot of that going on right now. And that’s one of the reasons we can sleep when the wind blows. We train hard and do the right things to the best of our ability and things will work out.”

Does Cael have a passive-aggressive side that I never noticed? Is this a general statement, or a veiled reference to any particular program(s)?

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I love passive aggressive Cael like when he was talking about win magazine

El_Jefe said:

Amazingly, no freestyle matches end in 2 minutes with the stepout rule (though I get your point about OT).

Just put in the freestyle stepout rule already. The guys all wrestle freestyle, so they know how to return to center -- some just choose not to because they don't have to. Also would greatly reduce the number of stoppages, thereby increasing action.

So much simpler than the current boundary rule and any possible modification to it.

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What abt the continuation rule in freestyle should that be implement in folk? I think no it would take away edge wrestling

El_Jefe said:

See the threads from Big Tens. One of our posters snapped a pic of Ryan on the bus with a screwdriver in hand, appareSee the threads from Big Tens. One of our posters snapped a pic of Ryan on the bus with a screwdriver in hand, apparently trying to get out with the door stuck.

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Was it the cocktail or the tool?

El_Jefe said:

Amazingly, no freestyle matches end in 2 minutes with the stepout rule (though I get your point about OT).

Just put in the freestyle stepout rule already. The guys all wrestle freestyle, so they know how to return to center -- some just choose not to because they don't have to. Also would greatly reduce the number of stoppages, thereby increasing action.

So much simpler than the current boundary rule and any possible modification to it.

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Nice idea but go one step further. Trim off the excess mat, similar to what Arkansas LR does. They'll stop going out of bounds soon enough.

The tool had the coctail?

ElDuce said:

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Calendio must be a Dominican. They didn't like St. Francis.

backdrft76-1 said:

My takeaways:

• Gutted for SVN. I think this was his best chance to NC.
• Duke would've been a NC if not for the screwjob.
• Mess is the Hodge and a freak of nature. Unfortunately Caliendo ended up being the same dirty, sore loser as the Brands.
• Hate seeing us win 2 matches on stall points.
• The casuals I watched with were bored half the time.
• Surprised a RSFR Cole didn't AA.
• Never in a million years did I foresee Blaze finish the season with 3 losses. I hope he RS.
• Loved seeing Ohio State lose out. Surprised to see Iowa in 4th, good for them. Hope the Brands stick around for our entertainment.
• OSU won Saturday night. They exceeded expectations. Even their sole loss kept our bonus point machine from bonus and another record. Well played.
• ANOTHER NEW PSU SCORING RECORD. And 4 NC's!

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so I am guessing Brands told him to choke him out so he could win!

Freestyle season should be starting soon, right??

so Cali mad and wont shake hands, he choke MM and still gets his butt handed to him,so sad for him and brands!

tullfan68 said:

so Cali mad and wont shake hands, he choke MM and still gets his butt handed to him,so sad for him and brands!

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Sure did look like an Illegal Headlock given his forearm going straight across Mess' windpipe - "Side Headlock" or not. Not sure how that didn't earn an Illegal Hold call - didn't even draw a "Potentially Dangerous" which is ridiculous.

Anyone else see Levi Haines shake off a direct (and looked intentional which is illegal) kick to his face in the 3rd Period so he wouldn't have to ask for Injury Time and allow Minto the choice of taking down and getting the match tying point before the end of regulation?

That kid is Pennsylvania Wrestler tough. He reminds me so much of so many kids I grew up wrestling with in NW PA.

STL_Lion said:

Special THANK YOU to Jeff Byers who saved me from having to listen to the ESPN clowns!!!
I do not have ESPN+ so I was able to follow the PSU wrestlers even when ESPN would cut to other bouts.
At one time during the tournament there were 3 PSU taking place. He did an amazing job of keeping me updated on all three...simply masterful & amazing!!!

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I do the same thing. Sync up Byers with the TV. And he is masterful at describing the action, especially when things are rocking! Thank you Jeff Byers!

Dren007 said:

The Sandusky garbage doesn't help. Even tho it had zero to do with any other sport they are all lumped in together. I realize the azzhats that spew this garbage are not true sane wrestling fans. It doesn't matter what PSU does it's always going to be there it's sad & ignorant. Consider the sources and the hate fans have for their program being dominated.

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Why are YOU bringing it up?

I don’t know ****, but I’m anti-stepout rule in folk. The guys that tie up and push and avoid wrestling now wouldn’t have any reason to change, they’d just get rewarded for it. Iowa fans have been begging for the stepout for years so their guys don’t have to initiate offense. No shooting, no scrambling, zero risk. I would also assume there’d be even fewer stall calls if they add it.

I like the forced stall call if there’s no score or if one wrestler has made zero attempt at offense. If no action then stall calls at 1:00 (warning), 2:00 (1 pt), 4:00 (2 pts), and 5:00 (DQ).

Tryingtodoitright said:

How about instead of having five minutes of commercials after each match, we’re shown the actual podium with all of the All Americans on the stand. Wouldn’t take long, what, a minute? There’s nothing like having a group photo of All the wrestlers and schools represented who get to applaud one of their own becoming an all-American.

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Now how is that going to ka-ching in the NCAA coffers?