Over the next few weeks, keep your eyes on the Middle East

nmerritt11

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They hope to make the juice not worth the squeeze for the US and Israel. The predominate geo-political theory holds that states are rational actors which prioritize their own survival. That's not to say that states can't make irrational choices or have flawed rationalizations to begin with, but it's safe to assume that any state is going to act in such a way that leads to their continued existence. It's a giant poker game where everybody is cheating and everybody wants to win.

Iran can't defeat the US and Israel in a heads up fight. The most valuable military targets in the region are going to either be incredibly well defended by air defense, unable to be located in time (if at all) to make an effective strike, or both. The Iranian government also can't afford to do nothing, since this risks displaying weakness to the populace and, more critically, might lead the IRGC to begin questioning why they can't just run the show themselves given they already de facto run large portions of the country and Iran's economy in the first place.

So Iran attacks less defended targets that don't pose as great a risk of escalation so they can appear to be doing something. This has the added benefit of pressuring regional allies of the US/Israel to slow down or stop the air campaign because the threshold for acceptable harm for someone like Qatar or the UAE is going to be significantly less than what the US or Israel have. Iran is gambling that they can get the US to the point as quickly as possible where they have to decide whether or not to escalate to boots on the ground before deciding that invading Iran wouldn't be worth the time, effort, or money. Conceivably it'd take 1-2 months for the US to build up the ground forces in the region to do so, so that's the time table Iran is working against.

Realistically the air campaign isn't likely to actually force regime change in the way that the US or Israel would like; the IRGC and its domestic forces have a monopoly on force within the country. This isn't like Syria where there are already armed groups that the US can guide its bombing campaign to support on the ground operations. It remains to be seen whether the hardliners or moderates fill the power vacuum within the country, but the difference to the average Iranian citizen is going to be whether they get called rioters or protestors before security forces shoot them in the street.

it's a poker game where Iran has a 3-7 off suit going all in against two players with aces and kings and the flop comes out with aces and kings. It is just a dumb move...

With Israel's intelligence paired with the US...I'd go all in on the USA and Israel. And anyone that thinks there are no boots on the street in Iran by both militaries has their head in the sand. Special Forces and Special Ops are in places no one even know
 
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ChucktownK

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Steve Witkoff's comments last night on Fox were very illuminating. He was Trump's negotiator at the talks with Iran's Foreign Minister. They walked in and said they had enough U235 for 11 bombs and were going to enrich more, and they refused to abandon enrichment.

I'd have walked out and called the boss and told him to bomb away if it were me.

This nonsense about not protecting Saudis is just that. They have bought almost as much of our BMD systems as the Israelis. They actually have more THAAD radars than the Israelis. They just suck at using them properly, despite the training. You're not supposed to fire 4-5 SAMs at every incoming missile, but they keep on doing it. The Ford CSG has Aegis ships tasked to help Israel, theres no carrier group in the Red Sea or Gulf to assist KSA, the geometry prevents the Lincoln from doing so and no Aegis ships are running through the Gulf to be big fat targets either. Nothing but rhetorical and political nonsense.
 

firegiver

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Steve Witkoff's comments last night on Fox were very illuminating. He was Trump's negotiator at the talks with Iran's Foreign Minister. They walked in and said they had enough U235 for 11 bombs and were going to enrich more, and they refused to abandon enrichment.

I'd have walked out and called the boss and told him to bomb away if it were me.

This nonsense about not protecting Saudis is just that. They have bought almost as much of our BMD systems as the Israelis. They actually have more THAAD radars than the Israelis. They just suck at using them properly, despite the training. You're not supposed to fire 4-5 SAMs at every incoming missile, but they keep on doing it. The Ford CSG has Aegis ships tasked to help Israel, theres no carrier group in the Red Sea or Gulf to assist KSA, the geometry prevents the Lincoln from doing so and no Aegis ships are running through the Gulf to be big fat targets either. Nothing but rhetorical and political nonsense.
Well, ok. But our intel still showed they were years away from a bomb. But i get it.
 

P. Marlowe

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Pezeshkian is dead. And, the Iranian Assembly of Experts (yea that’s the actual name - guessing it sounds better in Persian) is the body that has the authority to elect a supreme leader. They were meeting this morning in Qom. Israel destroyed the building in an airstrike while they were assembled. Not clear how many of the 88 are dead or survived.
 
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BigPapaWhit

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They hope to make the juice not worth the squeeze for the US and Israel. The predominate geo-political theory holds that states are rational actors which prioritize their own survival. That's not to say that states can't make irrational choices or have flawed rationalizations to begin with, but it's safe to assume that any state is going to act in such a way that leads to their continued existence. It's a giant poker game where everybody is cheating and everybody wants to win.

Iran can't defeat the US and Israel in a heads up fight. The most valuable military targets in the region are going to either be incredibly well defended by air defense, unable to be located in time (if at all) to make an effective strike, or both. The Iranian government also can't afford to do nothing, since this risks displaying weakness to the populace and, more critically, might lead the IRGC to begin questioning why they can't just run the show themselves given they already de facto run large portions of the country and Iran's economy in the first place.

So Iran attacks less defended targets that don't pose as great a risk of escalation so they can appear to be doing something. This has the added benefit of pressuring regional allies of the US/Israel to slow down or stop the air campaign because the threshold for acceptable harm for someone like Qatar or the UAE is going to be significantly less than what the US or Israel have. Iran is gambling that they can get the US to the point as quickly as possible where they have to decide whether or not to escalate to boots on the ground before deciding that invading Iran wouldn't be worth the time, effort, or money. Conceivably it'd take 1-2 months for the US to build up the ground forces in the region to do so, so that's the time table Iran is working against.

Realistically the air campaign isn't likely to actually force regime change in the way that the US or Israel would like; the IRGC and its domestic forces have a monopoly on force within the country. This isn't like Syria where there are already armed groups that the US can guide its bombing campaign to support on the ground operations. It remains to be seen whether the hardliners or moderates fill the power vacuum within the country, but the difference to the average Iranian citizen is going to be whether they get called rioters or protestors before security forces shoot them in the street.
A few follow-ups

1. Can US ordinance supplies outlast the IRGC capability to defend? Feels almost like siege warfare on much grander scale

2. Can China press an advantage? What would that look like?
 

nmerritt11

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Pezeshkian is dead. And, the Iranian Council of Experts (yea that’s the actual name - guessing it sounds better in Persian) is the body that has the authority to elect a supreme leader. They were meeting this morning in Qoms. Israel destroyed the building in an airstrike while they were assembled. Not clear how many of the 88 are dead or survived.

Where are you seeing this? Assuming this is true..it's huge
 

ChucktownK

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Well, ok. But our intel still showed they were years away from a bomb. But i get it.

Intel didn't show anything. Intel estimated based on historical timelines of other countries work with nuclear weapons.

First you build and test a bomb, haven't seen yet. Manhattan Project was only waiting on the material, they had the bomb design ready. This step can be very quick once the material is ready.

Then you build an RV that can survive reentry, they can do that on short and medium range systems. They haven't shown for ICBM class yet.

Then you weaponize the nuke into a RV. Most countries would do that and have a flight test to accept the weapon into use.

Intel's timelines were based on all of that.
 

nmerritt11

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P. Marlowe

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I've got the TV on in the background of my office and havent seen it...googled it and nothing came up. Definitely will be following this

I did find this?


Tasnim news agency first reported. They are a semi-state linked news agency in Iran with IRGC ties. If they reported it, it’s probably accurate. Their other lead story says something about 650 US casualties and forcing a US CSG to retreat.
 

P. Marlowe

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PawsFan

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Why were the radars operators not using IFF interrogations?
Can't say if Kuwaiti have the same crypto as our guys. Likely not.

And a ground unit isn't necessarily what shot them down.

There was fog of war involved.
 
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GDead_Tiger

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A few follow-ups

1. Can US ordinance supplies outlast the IRGC capability to defend? Feels almost like siege warfare on much grander scale

2. Can China press an advantage? What would that look like?
We're going to run out of strike targets within the next week or two.

China is doing PLA purges, I'd be shocked if they did anything with Taiwan. Their plan is to press for something in 2027 if they're ready
 
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GDead_Tiger

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it's a poker game where Iran has a 3-7 off suit going all in against two players with aces and kings and the flop comes out with aces and kings. It is just a dumb move...

With Israel's intelligence paired with the US...I'd go all in on the USA and Israel. And anyone that thinks there are no boots on the street in Iran by both militaries has their head in the sand. Special Forces and Special Ops are in places no one even know
Boots on the ground generally means a full military invasion, not spec op stuff
 

BigPapaWhit

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We're going to run out of strike targets within the next week or two.

China is doing PLA purges, I'd be shocked if they did anything with Taiwan. Their plan is to press for something in 2027 if they're ready
Taiwan is not their only objective.
Xi Jinping may decide to move quicker.

Not saying you are wrong, just other considerations.
 
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PawsFan

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It’s asinine to think that if they really wanted to deal with all of the pushback they couldn’t just roll through Ukraine. They have been using a knife in situations where they usually use a hammer. They could have and still can carpet bomb that entire country. I've been poking this Bear in the eye for the past 30years.
No. The Russians are inept. If you think they are using a knife instead of a hammer you are sadly mistaken. They've thrown everything at the Uks. I watch them fire missiles into Ukraine about every day. The only thing keeping them from losing is the Uks are running out of men while the Russians are opening their prisions to keep the front lines full.
 

ChucktownK

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No. The Russians are inept. If you think they are using a knife instead of a hammer you are sadly mistaken. They've thrown everything at the Uks. I watch them fire missiles into Ukraine about every day. The only thing keeping them from losing is the Uks are running out of men while the Russians are opening their prisions to keep the front lines full.

Very true, they lob SS-26s over daily, and it does them no good at all.

Russians always use a hammer, heavy handed is the only way the Russians know to do things.
 

PawsFan

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Yes. They’re striking British bases in Cyprus I believe we used those for our planes. They’re striking the gulf states because of the long running rivalry there and to make them squeal to the US for protection and support, and to drive a wedge into this “coalition”. The Gulf states will be annoyed that the US is prioritizing Israel
You act like we haven't moved assets into Saudi, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE to defend the region. We have.

You also act like all above countries don't hate Iran.

You also act like the Gulf State aren't aware of the US's 75 year relationship with Israel.
 
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nmerritt11

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You act like we haven't moed assets into Saudi, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE to defend the region. We have.

You also act like all above countries don't hate Iran.

You also act like the Gulf State aren't aware of the US's 75 year relationship with Israel.

his support for the Iran regime in this thread is hilarious
 
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GDead_Tiger

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You act like we haven't moed assets into Saudi, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE to defend the region. We have.

You also act like all above countries don't hate Iran.

You also act like the Gulf State aren't aware of the US's 75 year relationship with Israel.
How am I acting like that? Where did I give the impression we didn't move assets into the region to defend there? Yes, they hate Iran, which is why they're involved in a proxy war in Yemen.

Saudi officials are bitchin and moanin on arab language TV/news about how we're prioritizing assets to defend Israel instead of them
 

GDead_Tiger

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No. The Russians are inept. If you think they are using a knife instead of a hammer you are sadly mistaken. They've thrown everything at the Uks. I watch them fire missiles into Ukraine about every day. The only thing keeping them from losing is the Uks are running out of men while the Russians are opening their prisions to keep the front lines full.
Yeah Russia was having major demographic and economic issues before the war, this "3 week special military operation" or whatever they were calling it has completely wrecked them. The cream of the crop for the military got savaged, especially when their special forces tried that moronic raid into Kiev. Russia can still carry out their sabotage campaigns or whatever but their position as a whole is significantly weakened while Europe has been pushed to strengthen.
 

nmerritt11

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Oh come on.

oh I see you only used a portion of my comment...you realize that majority of my classmates who are still friends today served or still serve. My brother was special ops...I understand what boots on the ground means. But way to C&P only a portion of my comment. Hope it made you feel good

Typical liberal move
 

Dungeon09

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Yeah Russia was having major demographic and economic issues before the war, this "3 week special military operation" or whatever they were calling it has completely wrecked them. The cream of the crop for the military got savaged, especially when their special forces tried that moronic raid into Kiev. Russia can still carry out their sabotage campaigns or whatever but their position as a whole is significantly weakened while Europe has been pushed to strengthen.
Russia’s Ukraine war is a good example, along with our Iraq and Afghan experiences, of how air and sea superiority are necessary but not adequate to win a ground war and reconfigure another country’s political structure.
 
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nmerritt11

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Merz says he’s on the same page as Trump as far as getting this regime out of place