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The Greatest Bracket of All Time

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AgSurfer

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Great write up! How long did it take you to wean out all of that information?

For me, the greatest bracket ever only involved two guys but it was because they both scored falls in all of their matches until they met in the finals. Of course I’m talking about the legendary match of Dan Gable and Larry Owings at 142 lbs in 1970.

Another stat that you might want to chase down is how many times have two guys met in the finals where each guy had pinned all of their opponents to get there?
 
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Col

Col

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Great use of statistics showing insight to a problem/data vs trying to find the definitive answer. The problem is similar to defining who was the most dominate PSU wrestler? You can never get an answer unless you define dominate first but you can look at a number of great wrestlers that were great in slightly different ways....
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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AgSurfer said:
Great write up! How long did it take you to wean out all of that information?

For me, the greatest bracket ever only involved two guys but it was because they both scored falls in all of their matches until they met in the finals. Of course I’m talking about the legendary match of Dan Gable and Larry Owings at 142 lbs in 1970.

Another stat that you might want to chase down is how many times have two guys met in the finals where each guy had pinned all of their opponents to get there?
Click to expand...
There was months of work by @cowcards and another intermat poster to type in the original dataset, days of work setting up all the scoring, weeks of work auditing our work (frankly that is ongoing), and two days to normalize wrestler names and school names then merge in placement. It was a lot of work on the front end to make queries more seamless from now on (in theory).
 
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CTStall

CTStall

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Check out the 1982 NCAA brackets, some very talented guys didn't win the gold . I tried to post bracket but somehow the controversial play I sent to friend posted .
I can't figure out how to remove the photo.
 

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Psalm 1 guy

Psalm 1 guy

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Psalm 1 guy

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AgSurfer said:
Great write up! How long did it take you to wean out all of that information?

For me, the greatest bracket ever only involved two guys but it was because they both scored falls in all of their matches until they met in the finals. Of course I’m talking about the legendary match of Dan Gable and Larry Owings at 142 lbs in 1970.

Another stat that you might want to chase down is how many times have two guys met in the finals where each guy had pinned all of their opponents to get there?
Click to expand...
I did find the below-listed NCAA D1 tournament stats and looked at each of the five wrestlers' brackets. None of their opponents had also pinned their way to the Finals. In 1980, Howard Harris pinned his mediocre Finals opponent, Bruce Baumgartner!

**For all of you wrestling statistics nerds, wrestlingstats.com has the brackets for every weight for every NCAA D1 National Championship going back to the 1920s, including team summaries, OW winner, etc. It is an excellent resource.**

NCAA Wrestling Tournament

www.wrestlingstats.com

Most Falls, Tournament (Pinned All Opponents)

5 in 13:52--Chris Taylor, hwt, Iowa State, 1973.
5 in 18:34--Howard Harris, hwt, Oregon State, 1980.
5 in 19:17--William H. Koll, 147.5, Northern Iowa, 1948.
5 in 19:43--Bruce Kinseth, 150, Iowa, 1979.
5 in 20:59--Dan Gable, 137, Iowa State, 1969.
 
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Psalm 1 guy

Psalm 1 guy

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Wrestleknownothing said:
I hope your happy. I just fired the intern over this.
Click to expand...
As you should have! And it is you're, not your : ) Edit: I am glad to see I am not the only poster on here who cannot countenance poor grammar!

 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Psalm 1 guy said:
I did find the below-listed NCAA D1 tournament stats and looked at each of the five wrestlers' brackets. None of their opponents had also pinned their way to the Finals. In 1980, Howard Harris pinned his mediocre Finals opponent, Bruce Baumgartner!

**For all of you wrestling statistics nerds, wrestlingstats.com has the brackets for every weight for every NCAA D1 National Championship going back to the 1920s, including team summaries, OW winner, etc. It is an excellent resource.**

NCAA Wrestling Tournament

www.wrestlingstats.com

Most Falls, Tournament (Pinned All Opponents)

5 in 13:52--Chris Taylor, hwt, Iowa State, 1973.
5 in 18:34--Howard Harris, hwt, Oregon State, 1980.
5 in 19:17--William H. Koll, 147.5, Northern Iowa, 1948.
5 in 19:43--Bruce Kinseth, 150, Iowa, 1979.
5 in 20:59--Dan Gable, 137, Iowa State, 1969.
Click to expand...
In 1948 they used the black mark system to determine the champions. If you won by decision you got 1 black mark. A lose was 3 black marks. You were eliminated when you got to 5 black marks.

That year at 147 Bill Koll and John Fletcher finished first and second with five pinfalls apiece. Koll went five for five to finish with 0 black marks, winning the championship. Fletcher pinfell 5 of his 6 opponents, but was one of Koll's victims (in round 4). Since Fletcher finished with 3 black marks after 6 rounds he was the second place winner.

While it did not happen in the final (there was no final) that is the only time both first and second place wrestlers finished with five pinfalls each.
 
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Nitlion1986

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Wrestleknownothing said:
In 1948 they used the black mark system to determine the champions. If you won by decision you got 1 black mark. A lose was 3 black marks. You were eliminated when you got to 5 black marks.

That year at 147 Bill Koll and John Fletcher finished first and second with five pinfalls apiece. Koll went five for five to finish with 0 black marks, winning the championship. Fletcher pinfell 5 of his 6 opponents, but was one of Koll's victims (in round 4). Since Fletcher finished with 3 black marks after 6 rounds he was the second place winner.

While it did not happen in the final (there was no final) that is the only time both first and second place wrestlers finished with five pinfalls each.
Click to expand...
Are these facts something you already knew or have found with recent research. I love reading this stuff.

Thanks
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Nitlion1986 said:
Are these facts something you already knew or have found with recent research. I love reading this stuff.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Some from column A, some from column B.

I recently came across the Koll/Fletcher factoid while working on our data set. The stuff about the black marks was something I learned 4 or 5 years ago. After looking at those early Olympic year "brackets" on wrestlingstats and being totally confused by them, I found the old wrestling guides on the NWHOF website and found the explanation. Those things are gold.
 
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Psalm 1 guy

Psalm 1 guy

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Wrestleknownothing said:
In 1948 they used the black mark system to determine the champions. If you won by decision you got 1 black mark. A lose was 3 black marks. You were eliminated when you got to 5 black marks.

That year at 147 Bill Koll and John Fletcher finished first and second with five pinfalls apiece. Koll went five for five to finish with 0 black marks, winning the championship. Fletcher pinfell 5 of his 6 opponents, but was one of Koll's victims (in round 4). Since Fletcher finished with 3 black marks after 6 rounds he was the second place winner.

While it did not happen in the final (there was no final) that is the only time both first and second place wrestlers finished with five pinfalls each.
Click to expand...
As I was going through the 1948 brackets I noticed several matches that showed a result of ending with a pin at ten minutes or longer, with one showing a pin at 14:45! Were the matches back then of unlimited duration unless certain minimum scoring criteria were met? I was just curious and thought you might know.

I did find an old Intermat article that discussed the history of the official length of college wrestling matches over the decades. Here is part of the article:

Match length

As you sit in the stands having been transported to that old-school college dual, hope you brought a cushion: In the 1920s and through most of the 1930s, each individual college wrestling bout lasted ten minutes, with two three-minute overtime periods if no winner was determined in regulation. If no takedowns were scored in the first two minutes, the ten-minute match was wrestled non-stop; if there was a takedown, the time remaining after the initial two minutes would be divided into two four-minute periods, with each man having the opportunity to start the period in the top position.

In 1938, matches were shortened to nine minutes, with three three-minute periods. In 1967, bout length went down to eight minutes, with the first period being two minutes, followed by two three-minute periods. Today's seven-minute matches debuted in 1982. That year, matches got one minute shorter, with the first period lasting three minutes, followed by two two-minute periods.
 
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98lberEating2Lunches

98lberEating2Lunches

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Psalm 1 guy said:
As I was going through the 1948 brackets I noticed several matches that showed a result of ending with a pin at ten minutes or longer, with one showing a pin at 14:45! Were the matches back then of unlimited duration unless certain minimum scoring criteria were met? I was just curious and thought you might know.

I did find an old Intermat article that discussed the history of the official length of college wrestling matches over the decades. Here is part of the article:

Match length

As you sit in the stands having been transported to that old-school college dual, hope you brought a cushion: In the 1920s and through most of the 1930s, each individual college wrestling bout lasted ten minutes, with two three-minute overtime periods if no winner was determined in regulation. If no takedowns were scored in the first two minutes, the ten-minute match was wrestled non-stop; if there was a takedown, the time remaining after the initial two minutes would be divided into two four-minute periods, with each man having the opportunity to start the period in the top position.

In 1938, matches were shortened to nine minutes, with three three-minute periods. In 1967, bout length went down to eight minutes, with the first period being two minutes, followed by two three-minute periods. Today's seven-minute matches debuted in 1982. That year, matches got one minute shorter, with the first period lasting three minutes, followed by two two-minute periods.
Click to expand...
IDK the reason, but if one would have been pinned in TB2 of the not that long ago (pre 2021-22) then the pin would've had to have been over the 10 minute mark.

1st+2nd+3rd+SV1+TB1+SV2+TB2 =
3+2+2+1+0.5+0.5+1+0.5+0.5 =
11 minutes.

I will assume some of these occurred, even if these weren't the rules in 1948.

FWIW - This web sources seems to indicate NCAA periods were 3-3-3 with two 2 minute overtimes in 1948.

Loading…

www.wrestlingstats.com

But other sources indicate the 1948 NCAA Wrestling Championships used special Olympic rules and weight classes to prepare U.S. wrestlers for the post-war Olympics.
 
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Roar More

Roar More

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Psalm 1 guy said:
I did find the below-listed NCAA D1 tournament stats and looked at each of the five wrestlers' brackets. None of their opponents had also pinned their way to the Finals. In 1980, Howard Harris pinned his mediocre Finals opponent, Bruce Baumgartner!

**For all of you wrestling statistics nerds, wrestlingstats.com has the brackets for every weight for every NCAA D1 National Championship going back to the 1920s, including team summaries, OW winner, etc. It is an excellent resource.**

NCAA Wrestling Tournament

www.wrestlingstats.com

Most Falls, Tournament (Pinned All Opponents)

5 in 13:52--Chris Taylor, hwt, Iowa State, 1973.
5 in 18:34--Howard Harris, hwt, Oregon State, 1980.
5 in 19:17--William H. Koll, 147.5, Northern Iowa, 1948.
5 in 19:43--Bruce Kinseth, 150, Iowa, 1979.
5 in 20:59--Dan Gable, 137, Iowa State, 1969.
Click to expand...
Chris Taylor of Iowa State and Tab Thacker of NC State were the reasons heavyweight went from unlimited to 285. They both weighed well north of 400 pounds. Nobody could get out from under them and nobody could keep them down. Both also died young. Calling them wrestlers is a bit of a stretch. They were simply there. Like the Rockies.
 
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Roar More

Roar More

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Wrestleknownothing said:
In 1948 they used the black mark system to determine the champions. If you won by decision you got 1 black mark. A lose was 3 black marks. You were eliminated when you got to 5 black marks.

That year at 147 Bill Koll and John Fletcher finished first and second with five pinfalls apiece. Koll went five for five to finish with 0 black marks, winning the championship. Fletcher pinfell 5 of his 6 opponents, but was one of Koll's victims (in round 4). Since Fletcher finished with 3 black marks after 6 rounds he was the second place winner.

While it did not happen in the final (there was no final) that is the only time both first and second place wrestlers finished with five pinfalls each.
Click to expand...
loss ;)
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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98lberEating2Lunches said:
IDK the reason, but if one would have been pinned in TB2 of the not that long ago (pre 2021-22) then the pin would've had to have been over the 10 minute mark.

1st+2nd+3rd+SV1+TB1+SV2+TB2 =
3+2+2+1+0.5+0.5+1+0.5+0.5 =
11 minutes.

I will assume some of these occurred, even if these weren't the rules in 1948.

FWIW - This web sources seems to indicate NCAA periods were 3-3-3 with two 2 minute overtimes in 1948.

Loading…

www.wrestlingstats.com

But other sources indicate the 1948 NCAA Wrestling Championships used special Olympic rules and weight classes to prepare U.S. wrestlers for the post-war Olympics.
Click to expand...
This is where those wrestling guides are pure gold.

National Wrestling Hall of Fame

The National Wrestling Hall Of Fame
nwhof.org

From the 1948 guide discussing Olympic rules:

"The maximum time for the bout shall be 20 minutes in the Greco Roman Wrestling, and 15 minutes in the Free Style."

And From the 1949 guide (where they discuss the prior year tournament):

"Unlike the usual tournaments, Olympic Rules were used and the contestants and spectators were greatly confused over the technicalities. However, the tournament was witnessed by capacity crowds and after the Friday sessions much of the difficulties were straightened out and Saturday's finals went along on scheduled time. It is the consensus of opinion of all concerned that a much better tournament would have been had under our American rules."

"However, after the final Olympic Tryouts it was the general opinion that the tournament under Olympic rules was a help to the college men and officials. The experience was worth while for the contestants and officials. Olympic weight classes as well as rules were used. A clinic for officials was held the evening of the 18th of March."

There is just so much to love in those two paragraphs. The need to have a clinic for the officials so they would understand the rules being used this one time only, the fact that wrestlers were greatly confused, the consensus opinion that it sucked, and the ultimate acquiescence. Chef's kiss.

I also loved this from the Olympic rules:

"In the event of a triple tie, they must be weighed immediately, and the lightest contestant shall be declared the winner."
 
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rigi19040

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Roar More said:
Chris Taylor of Iowa State and Tab Thacker of NC State were the reasons heavyweight went from unlimited to 285. They both weighed well north of 400 pounds. Nobody could get out from under them and nobody could keep them down. Both also died young. Calling them wrestlers is a bit of a stretch. They were simply there. Like the Rockies.
Click to expand...
Taylor was good enough to medal in the Olympics.
 
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rigi19040

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There was a bracket with Ricky Bonomo, Jim Martin, Jack Cuvo and Zeke Jones. Maybe some others.

More titles in there than some listed on the original post.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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rigi19040 said:
There was a bracket with Ricky Bonomo, Jim Martin, Jack Cuvo and Zeke Jones. Maybe some others.

More titles in there than some listed on the original post.
Click to expand...
The ones I listed for most champions had 9 and 8 over the course of their careers. The 1987 118 bracket I think you are referencing had 7. Bonomo with 3, Cuvo with 2, Martin with 1 and Griffin with 1.
 
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