Ahh ignore the facts. I see how when those silly facts that show he is a average in a lot of categories come out you just go back to the old he is bigger and faster so that makes him better argument. :joy:
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Do we overrate Jordan's supporting cast
- Thread starter gamecockcat
- Start date
Ahh ignore the facts. I see how when those silly facts that show he is a average in a lot of categories come out you just go back to the old he is bigger and faster so that makes him better argument. :joy:
So he has honed his average rebounding, shooting and defensive skills to his well above average physical ability. Great idea LeBron. :joy:
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The reason I don't give LBJ a break is because he created this roster.
He wanted Love. He wanted JR Smith. He wanted Tristan Thompson to get a max contract. He wanted Kyrie out of town. LeBron has made the personnel decisions since he returned to Cleveland and because of that, he has to eat any of the reservations about the quality of his supporting cast.
He wanted Love. He wanted JR Smith. He wanted Tristan Thompson to get a max contract. He wanted Kyrie out of town. LeBron has made the personnel decisions since he returned to Cleveland and because of that, he has to eat any of the reservations about the quality of his supporting cast.
Both sides can argue and state facts and opinions until your blue in the face but it's still useless and will never convince the other side. So I think both sides are silly to keep arguing over it. Both are the best to play in their era and are both arguably the top 2 players to ever play the game.
Agreed. You can make an argument for Kareem, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain or many others who were great and dominate during their peak. I can see the case for many including Jordan and LeBron but hate it when someone acts like if you don't think it is LeBron you are just an idiot.
I am not saying you are right or wrong because everyone is entitled to their opinion but curious who you think is the greatest.
Not saying he isn't an all-time great...but how would we remember Scottie if he played his whole career in Portland? We'd always remember The Flash Wade if Bron never comes to South Beach. Scottie was still already established with Jordan by 1994...proved he was good without MJ...but not on the level D-Wade did without Bron
1994...7th year in the league...after Jordan left...after he played with Jordan...when he went out in the 2nd round without Jordan.
2006....3rd year in the league for D-Wade....outscored an older Shaq by almost 10 ppg in the playoffs....averaged 35 ppg in the finals....Finals MVP at age 24
Probably Wilt. His numbers were absurd and he was every bit the athletic marvel of either LeBron or mj. And he did it in the golden era of big men.
I think Shaq was better than both LeBron and mj too. Shaq made the NBA widen the lane to make it more fair to play against him. And he was so physically powerful they had to redesign the way they made basketball goals.
Here's the problem when you talk about things like this. Wade probably was, at his peak, a better player than Pippen. But if you already have Michael Jordan or LeBron James, who's more likely to be able to play with either one of them and make the team significantly better?
The answer is, easily, Scottie Pippen. Michael Jordan or LeBron do the the things that Wade does, only slightly better. Pippen does other things that complement what Jordan does (or LeBron).
And that's why you never look at a team as some accumulation of individual talent. That's not how basketball works.
Forget Jordan's teammates, his TEAMS were better than any LeBron has played on. The only question is how much of that is on LeBron, and how much is just circumstance.
Hard to argue against either one. One guy that people often forget about is Oscar Robertson.
If you think anything about the guy is average, well, bit of a lost cause I’d say.
So 74% free throw percentage is above average? So 34% 3 point is above average? So averaging the same amount of rebounds and blocks as Mason Plumlee is above average? Sounds like you may be the lost cause.
I think easily his supporting cast is overrated, I think he made many players play above and beyond their ceiling with his greatness, before and after for a lot of his teammates reflect that. Rodman I think benefited from Jordan’s greatness, but I still believe he would have been an all time great nonetheless. Tenacious and relentless on the boards and down things to win, he was a great addition for Jordan
You laugh but I've yet to see you come up with a "similar list" (As you called it) for Lebron James...because you can't. Nobody can.
I agree. Although I think his status as an all timer was a bit tarnished after Westbrook's last two seasons.
Still, he's way up there for sure.
This is dumber than dumb. So yes, I think you are a lost cause.
There are measures for the ACCUMULATION of all the stats you're so selectively nitpicking, like PER, Win Shares, Value Over Replacement, and so on. I'd say LeBron ranks rather highly in every single one of those.
You don't look at LeBron and say "oh, he's an average FT shooter", and "oh, he's never been particularly great from 3", and "oh, he doesn't get as many rebounds or blocks as power forwards and centers, and he doesn't get as many assists as pure point guards". You look at the aggregate of everything he's contributing. Which (almost) puts him in a category by himself, since almost no other players in the history of the game have had as many "ands" in terms of what they do.
And if you can't recognize the skill involved with that, it's totally on you.
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As I have said earlier an argument can be made for a number of players as the GOAT including LeBron. I just don't agree with the people who say it is him and will not listen to anyone else or any arguments. I am done discussing this with you guys as this is going nowhere. Have a great day.
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Michael Jordan could shoot better with the same bludgeoning? Yeah. Lost cause.
Oh, yes. I can. And much less repetitive.
But I know how that argument goes. I give you a list. After many tears and much wailing, you claim none of the numbers are applicable. I point out how flawed that reasoning is, kinda like the guy that said if you ignore James' strength, he's nothing. Then you cry more agreeing with that laugable argument saying that strength doesn't count as a skill. And you counter with nothing really matters except rings. After which I point out Jordan NEVER won a championship by himself. Your response is out and out floods, you start calling names and storm away tears streaming.
Bottom line. James is probably the best all round basketball play that ever lived. Both he and Jordan are solidly in the discussion for that title. If people are picking sides, most with any basketball sense will pick James. Simple reason is he matches up with anyone. His power exceeds Jordan by far. All of his other skills are comparable. He can and has played any position on the floor, save maybe the 5 and would be the best if not one of the best at each position.
Have a tissue and the cry room is across the hall.
LOL at calling Rodman a roleplayer. Dude is in the HOF. 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 2x All-NBA, 2x All-Star, 8x All-Defense. Elite defender and the best rebounder in NBA history (23.4% total rebound % is an NBA record). Was without question the league's premiere rebounder from 1991-1998 and ranked top 10 in the NBA in defensive rating for every year from 1988 to 1998. Ranks 65th for his career in Value Over Replacement Player as a guy who was basically a non-factor on offense. There are numerous Hall of Famers and multi-time All-Stars and All-NBA players who aren't HOF eligible yet with a worse career VORP.
Kukoc won 6th Man of the Year in 1996 and is one of the best Europeans in history, elected to the FIBA Hall of Fame in 2017. FIBA World Cup MVP in 1990, EuroBasket MVP (like the world cup, but only for Europe) in 1991. Helped guide Serbia to the 1992 Olympic Silver medal.
Former EuroBasket MVPs include guys like Drazen Petrovic, Arvydas Sabonis, Sarunas Marciulionis, Peja Stojakovic, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Dirk Nowitzki, Andrei Kirilenko, Pau Gasol (2x), Tony Parker, Goran Dragic.
Former World Cup MVPs include guys like Kyrie, Durant, Pau Gasol, Nowitzki, Dejan Bodiroga (European legend who declined on going to the NBA), Shaq, and Petrovic
BJ Armstrong was an All-Star in the first Jordan minor league baseball year, a year after being a starter on the 1993 championship team. Also a great shooter, ranked 10th in NBA history in three point percentage.
Horace Grant was an All-Defense pick for four straight years from 1993 to 1996. Ranks 26th in NBA history in offensive rating and 43rd in Value Over Replacement Player.
Rest of the guys you mentioned are indeed role players, but Steve Kerr holds the NBA record for career three point %.
Rodman was still the best rebounder in basketball when he was with the Bulls and just sort of the guy who got under the skin of opponents. Paxson, Kukoc and Kerr were excellent shooters who understood their roles. Ron Harper (not mentioned in the OP) was once a 20 PPG scorer. I don't really remember if Harper got hurt at some point or was a guy willing to defer to Michael and Scottie and do the little things.
And of course, can't forget Phil Jackson. The Zen Master knew how to keep his teams calm and to manage egos. Did it in Chicago and then in LA with Shaq and Kobe (we know they didn't care for each other). Michael didn't really enjoy dealing with Rodman after a while and also reportedly didn't like Luc Longley dropping passes (if you believe this link).
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782
My opinion would be that Jordan's Bulls were far better coached than any Cleveland team LeBron has been on, and as a result, were greater than the sum of the parts would be with a lesser coach.
And of course, can't forget Phil Jackson. The Zen Master knew how to keep his teams calm and to manage egos. Did it in Chicago and then in LA with Shaq and Kobe (we know they didn't care for each other). Michael didn't really enjoy dealing with Rodman after a while and also reportedly didn't like Luc Longley dropping passes (if you believe this link).
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782
My opinion would be that Jordan's Bulls were far better coached than any Cleveland team LeBron has been on, and as a result, were greater than the sum of the parts would be with a lesser coach.
Everything you described about James is absolutely true but are stats or a 1 on 1 matchup all it takes to be considered the GOAT?
Lebron showed one of the many examples of why he can’t be called the GOAT in game 3 on two back to back plays at the end. He has 6’2” Steph Curry guarding him, down 3 with around a minute left. He drives Curry to the basket and passes to an already guarded Tristan Thompson. I could understand if it was an open shooter but Thompson instead of trying to get a bucket in the biggest moment? Then he comes down and practically runs away from Durant because he’s so afraid of trying to check him on a soft pick attempt. You’re the best player on the planet but don’t want to check the guy in that situation?
It’s that lack of competitive fire that will keep Lebron from being declared the GOAT, not His Finals record. He may be the most talented or gifted player to ever play but he’s not the greatest except at maybe stuffing a stat sheet.
You think LeBron is the only one to been "bludgeoned"? Have you never heard of the Jordan rules? Have you never heard of Hack a Shaq?
So now you think he is the best or one of the best at every position on the floor? Wow!!!
Oh and you talk about name calling, who has been saying I am "hopeless" because I don't agree with your LeBron fanboy logic. Who said in the message above that anyone "with any basketball sense will pick James" which says that if you don't pick James you know nothing about basketball? C'mon man I usually like your post but this is a really bad look for you to not respect the fact that someone else may have a different opinion and insinuate that they are stupid or know nothing about basketball simply because they think someone other than the great and powerful King James is the GOAT.
Still waiting for that list, bud. Btw, you're talking about tears, crying, tissues, and such...LMAO..but YOU are the only one crying a river.
*Looks at watch*...Still waiting on that "similar" list for Lebron James, buddy ole pal.
This...this × 1,000. All day. Yes, Jordan has other things on Lebron but the biggest..by far..easily..is the competitive fire. That's what really separates them. And I may be alone on this but I'm taking a few other guys over Lebron as well..for that same exact reason.
You're out of your element, Donny.
- You clearly presented Ray Allen as a part of a list of awesome teammates for LeBron, not as the limited role player that he was. And John Paxson hit a last second 3 that prevented the Bulls from facing a game 7 in Phoenix, and was about as good as old man Ray Allen, yet you didn't list him on the Bulls side of the ledger. You're glorifying the name, not what Ray Allen provided for the Heat. This simple and wrong analysis pervades your posts.
- He scored 22 PPG in the playoffs on good efficiency as the only playmaker (I mean, I guess BJ Armstrong?) in his one year without Jordan. That's a far cry from "couldn't create his own offense," which evokes something between Andre Roberson (terrible on O) and Kyle Korver (needs someone to set him up, but then is effective). Basically, you're trying to make a point by arguing via hyperbole. Like a toddler. Pippen was very good at creating his own offense, but I'll concede he is not as good as Wade. Cool story, I guess? And when you say things like LeBron has had more offensive help, you again reveal that you're enamored with names and offense (PPG without discussing efficiency is fine for a very casual fan in 2018, and that's what you are).
- "[D]oes too much." This is a Skip Bayless unfalsifiable argument and meaningless. You're 100% wrong about game 1 of the Finals this year; putting an 80%+ FT shooter on the line is better than hero ball into a defense that was keyed on one player. Might as well just yell "KOBE!" and throw paper wads at the trash can, champ.
- It says more about his total team, including him, and his opponents than anything. That's how bookmakers (and really anyone) figures out who the favorite is. When you say things like Miami should have always been favored, it just reveals that you have a very shallow and incorrect view of basketball. Apparently you just look at the big names and discount fit, coaching, and role players (like, I don't know, maybe Ray Allen and John Paxson?). And again we see you including Ray Allen as a key member of those two Miami teams ("4 HOFers on the roster"). This again reveals that you have simple takes on the NBA.
- I agree he's a top 2 player. Using phrases like "competitive killer instinct" is basically AM radio non-analysis, but that seems to be your modus operandi.
- Facts are facts. It's okay to argue that MJ is the best ever (as I do), and also acknowledge that this GSW team is on one of the top 3 4-year stretches in NBA history (as I do). Both can be true (they are). But a small mind dismisses facts rather than acknowledging reality.
You sound smart.
It's a basketball game, not a biggest nuts competition. LeBron was playing the defense that the Cavs called. Had he freelanced ("I got this!"), it would have created problems with Cleveland's rotations. Hero ball on D while ignoring the defensive scheme is stupid and is losing basketball.
Houston took GSW to seven by executing well with their switch-heavy defense, which forced GSW into absurdly high levels of isolation basketball. Cleveland was executing a slightly modified version of that scheme.
Actually, in any given game he might be the best in those four spots.
This ended like I expected, you in tears.
Really? Well could be. I’m laughing my *** off at you. I told you why you won’t get the list. Little boys can’t handle the truth.
Still waiting for that "similar" list for Lebron James, little guy. Zzzzzzzz. You're a joke..and boring to boot.
Well, I mean, the clown is defending, fanboying, and riding Lebron James up and down the last three pages of this thread like he's his Boyfriend..sooooo what the hell are you on, Mr. Sarcasm ? Anyway..thanks, guy..I'll take it as a compliment.
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No, I just know a whiney boy ambush when I see one. You are about as whiney as a little nancy boy can get. :weary:
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That was a slow response. I expected something at least within a day. I will hit these one at a time.
1. Ray Allen is a HOFer, John Paxson was never even close.
2 and 3. I love Scottie but his forte was defense and transition scoring. Even when MJ left, Phil Jackson called plays for Toni Kukoc (leading to Scottie sulking one time). Lebron had much more offensive help but far less defensive help. MJ basically had the ball in his hands almost every big offensive play in almost every game of his entire career. That was his role. Lebron could be that guy but defers. I wish he hadn't deferred in Game 1 because Cleveland would have one if he took the last shot. Lebron is smart enough to know the best shot to win was him taking that shot. He should have only passed if he would double-teamed. As it was, George Hill was not wide open for a layup (otherwise he wouldn't have been fouled) and is not the guy I would want even simply shooting free throws with the game on the line. Lebron has to want that shot. He is too good to pass on a shot of that importance.
4. Lebron constructed that Miami team of 4 HOFers (RA was older) with the help of a HOF GM. That isn't shallow, that is fact. 3 of those players were All-Stars in 2014. San Antonio had 1 All-Star. How can you expect a team to give you more help than that? If you can't be favored with that kind of firepower, when can you be favored. How Miami lost to SA by the largest margin of victory ever in the finals is beyond me. Injuries played a part but Scottie was injured in 1998 quite a bit and MJ still propelled the Bulls to victory.
5. How many clips of NBA greats calling Michael Jordan an assassin or the most competitive man they ever saw do you want me to send your way? This really isn't contested. Michael Jordan was a cold blooded basketball killer. Lebron is great but doesn't have a competitive drive like MJ. Do you still listen to AM radio? Do you also have a 8 track tape player?
6. You have not thrown out fact or even proof. You are like Lebron apologist Nick Wright. The fact is Lebron didn't win in Cleveland in his first stay. He got frustrated, created a super team in Miami, went 2 for 4, got frustrated again, created another super team in Cleveland (I love that he went back to help the Cavs fans and the city of Cleveland), went 1 for 3, pissed off the 2nd best player on the team enough to make him want to leave, and now will leave again because he is again frustrated. Lebron is a great player with amazing stats but I see him more like a Wilt Chamberlain than an MJ. Still great but not the greatest.
Have a very happy Father's Day weekend.
You need to google around nancy boy. The talking heads are laughing at your ‘list’. :weary: :flush::thumbsdown:
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