The Charge/Block Rule...
- Thread starter ConRay9
- Start date
Nope. If I'm jogging backwards and you run through me on the way to the basket, that's a charge on you.
I honestly think the dramatic nature of the signal is part of the problem. We know that some refs like attention. The only call that gets more is a technical foul.
But let's say you're running sideways. And the offensive player makes contact while he's going up for a dunk over your slow ***. You fall down. Still a charge?
Because it sure as hell shouldn't be.
But far too often in college game, it is.
This isn't the 1950's, where Jimmy Chitwood should just pull up for a pretty little 12 foot jump shot, and not try to force anything going to the hoop because somebody might stand in front of him and then fall down (and because Jimmy only has a 20 inch vertical, anyway). That's just not the way the game has developed, and most fans like it that way (which is why the most popular NBA players are almost invariably the ones who can make the most spectacularly athletic moves to the basket- Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron). Yet many refs call the game like Jimmy Chitwood is still the norm.
I think you've missed my point. Your feet don't have to be planted to draw a charge. You only have to have legal guarding position.Well obviously that doesn't count because I wouldn't have my feet planted then!
The fact that we're referencing a 30 year old whoopi Goldberg movie when discussing our knowledge of the rule is pretty telling.... [roll][roll][roll]
That one's a little bit tougher. Usually that's called on the defender. But if I'm running alongside you, and you initiate the contact to the point where I', knocked down, TECHNICALLY it should be a foul on you. I believe most of those should be no calls, but they're usually called against the defense.
I really don't like the little arch under the basket. If you are in the arch it is automatically a block. It allows the offensive player if he notices that you are in or have one foot on the line then he can just bull you over to get a basket or to get a block call. Guarding position has no bearing. If you are in the arch, then it is a block, even if the other player lowers his shoulder and knocks you down.
I think as a whole, the ratio of charges to blocks is about right.
You lower your shoulder and bowl into a guy, hell yes it should be a charge.
You use your free arm to hook a defender to get around him, that should be one too (not called enough). You are holding the defender just because you aren't quick enough to get around him.
If you bowl over a player because you aren't quick enough to get around him, that too should be a charge.
Again, if coaches could challenge a couple calls/no-calls a game, AND players could get T'ed up for flopping, that would fix a lot of problems.
You lower your shoulder and bowl into a guy, hell yes it should be a charge.
You use your free arm to hook a defender to get around him, that should be one too (not called enough). You are holding the defender just because you aren't quick enough to get around him.
If you bowl over a player because you aren't quick enough to get around him, that too should be a charge.
Again, if coaches could challenge a couple calls/no-calls a game, AND players could get T'ed up for flopping, that would fix a lot of problems.
The officials do not love to call offensive fouls for attention. They are not dissing more athletic teams because they drive one on four out of control and don't see help defense sliding over to draw the charge. It's very simple: Who initiated the contact? Who violated verticality? Flopping is an issue. I will give you that. But the NBA has its issues as well...guys take 4-5 steps all the time with no call and the players think they are above the refs and are delusional about fouls they commit.
No...as I said in the thread "obviously on the Wenyen call, they completely missed that one."
The rule does state that you can't move into a player's path who has ALREADY LEFT THE FLOOR. I don't see that one missed very often. Some are pretty close though.
So with respect to your statement that 9/10 fans believe a call goes a certain way, it could be because 9/10 of those fans don't know the rule.
Wenyen's call should have been a NO Call or a blocking play IMO..Maybe the ref was out of position and didn't see that the angle was only a brush on the arm and not a ram-through on Wenyen's part.
Why do people keep saying that they should give the coaches a challenge.....what good would it do? Did't they go to the moniter the other day? I don't recall a time where they go to the monitor and change a call. Those bastards are so full of themselves that they don't like to admit they are wrong.
The reason that they went to the monitor was not to see if it were a foul, that is not reviewable. They went to the monitor to see if WG threw an elbow. And yeah, calls are reversed often but only the reviewable ones: possession in final 2 minutes, 3 or a 2, foul on player A or player B, etc
Out of position? Unless he was getting ice cream at the concession stand I'm not sure he could have been out of position enough to miss that call.
1. Can't believe some are referencing NBA officials as the standard; they are terrible. Won't call a travel, and If college officials swallowed their whistle in the last 2 minutes of a game like they do in the NBA this board would blow a gasket.
2. Basketball is still a team game (although less than in the past), and part of that is Team D. Part of Team D is allowing help side defenders the ability to take a charge.
3. I agree block/charges are a problem. I don't think replay is the answer.
2. Basketball is still a team game (although less than in the past), and part of that is Team D. Part of Team D is allowing help side defenders the ability to take a charge.
3. I agree block/charges are a problem. I don't think replay is the answer.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I'm a basketball official. And 95% of fans have NO CLUE what the rule is.
It doesn't change the fact that it's not consistently called correctly. You can argue all you want about fans not knowing the exact wording of the rule. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is that it doesn't magically make the rule something that is working and conducive to athletic free-flowing basketball if the officials on the court aren't consistently calling the correct call and/or punishing the more athletic player for being athletic.
1. NBA officials are MUCH higher paid, as well as held to a MUCH higher standard. If your main gripe about them is their lack of travel calls, and letting players play on, you clearly don't watch any NBA basketball and/or hate games that don't become free throw tests. NBA officials aren't perfect, but there's absolutely no debate that the product that is put on the floor during NBA games is much more free flowing than in college and the officials in college absolutely play a part in that. They need to be properly trained or held accountable for their poor games, which they are not in the slightest like they are in the NBA.
2. The charge/block rule as it's currently called doesn't reward team basketball. It punishes an athletic player jumping over a player because the refs would rather reward a player that is just standing there over a player trying to make a play. Throw in the lack of consistency in the call being made correctly and it's just a mess. If it were called correctly and tweaked a bit I would agree with you, but it's not.
3. Replay might not be the answer, and I'd probably lean a little more on your side thinking that it isn't. But the rule needs to be tweaked or the refs need to be better trained/held more accountable.
Based on your point # 2, it sounds like you're willing to make it illegal to play defense in basketball. Just get out of the way because the offense always has the right of way. Quoting the high school rulebook..."A player who is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction if a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position in his/her path."
THANK YOU. Frankly I'm shocked at the number of posters in this thread that see legal guarding position as a nuisance to those trying to score.... [laughing]
Hey, good job at completely sensationalizing what I’ve said. I’ve been advocating for better consistency, and a tweak to the rules. How in the world you twisted that into what you just said I have no idea. I applaud the creativity though.
How is asking for better consistency and a tweak to the rules in any away decrying legal guarding position? Please, enlighten me with your wisdom.
Nice diversion. Let me quote what you said. "It punishes an athletic player jumping over a player because the refs would rather reward a player that is just standing there over a player trying to make a play." To me, it sounds like you're OK with an offensive player bulldozing a guy with good guarding position. Maybe you didn't mean what you said.
I not once said "good guarding position". Often times a player makes an athletic move that is perceived as "out of control" when in fact he is in control. It just looks like it to the ref when players have 40 inch verticals and 7 foot wingspans in some of these quick "bang bang" plays for lack of a better phrase.
If a defender is in good guarding position it doesn't matter how high the player is jumping or what great move they made, it's a charge like you said, and like the rule states. But when someone like Diallo rises up I feel like the defender's are forgiven more often for losing good guarding position or being a little out of place in a bang bang play rather than the offensive player being forgiven for trying to make a play. I think players like that get punished far too often.
I'm not saying it's an epidemic, but I would like the game to be as clean as possible. I think it can be better.
Yeah, I'm all in favor of consistency....the Gabriel call was pretty sad. I do believe if it's an ultra close call the tie should go to the offensive player.
Totally agree! Hopefully we don’t get burned on any of those calls tonight. I feel good about tonight though.
The NBA is hard to watch because of officiating in my opinion. Just because they are the highest paid doesn’t make them any better. They make conscious decisions about calls based on who the player is. The officiating is not equal among players and extremely inconsistent. It’s not “free flowing” in my opinion when in the last two minutes of the game Kevin Durant can grab LeBron James’ arm as he drives to the rim with no call. If Patrick Mackaw did that it would be a foul.
I disagree about the charge not being a part of team basketball. It’s huge when talking about team defense and rotation. The refs blow it a lot but guarding he basketball is the hardest thing to do in the game. You have to have help and taking a charge is a sacrifice made for the team.
I agree about accountability for the refs.