I'm gonna plead the 5th. I doubt the only person on this board who knows who I am, is my brother. But ya never know.
Two things.......
He did not travel upon landing. What play are you watching? He landed, verbally called TO, then pulled his pivot foot after calling TO. Not to mention every other UNC player calling it before he caught the ball. And I'm sure the officials were told of that plan. Go back and watch it again. He did not travel upon landing after getting the ball, that is impossible actually.
Second, you are wrong about the rule and it has ZERO bearing on this play. The rule states an airborne player player GOING OUT OF BOUNDS or from frontcourt to backcourt (to prevent a violation) will not be granted a timeout. It doesn't have anything to do with every airborne player on the court. So, throw that out too. Nice try though.
Correct. It's when the official grants the timeout. When whistle is just an indication and a signal that something has occurred to stop play. It's like in football, the play is over when the ball carrier is down. It's not the whistle that ends the play, it's the play that ends itself.
I can't believe that Im siding with an IU fan and all my brother UK fans are arguing with me on this. LOL! It is what it is though and the IU is right in this matter. We've tried to explain this thing from our officiating knowledge but looks like some people just can't comprehend it and want to argue and split hairs with it. Oh well! Must be pigs flying over my house today. How else can I explain me teaming up with an IU fan. LoL! He's right though guys!
And how does he acknowledge that, bright boy? He signals. It is clearly written the NCAA rules that I am sure you have memorized. You are an arrogant jerk, aren't you? You never commented on the time. The referee has to see the request and make the signal. Time is stopped when the referee has signaled timeout and it is not the score keeper who does this. It is the "Official timer" (2-10). Time is not stopped when the player signals for a timeout (5-11.3). Rule 5-14.1 states that the timeout is granted after the player or coach requests the timeout must be after the player has demonstrated control of the ball. Unless you just want to ignore the rules.
No problem as long as you feel that officials should treat every second of the game as important whether it's early or late in the game.
Absolutely I do. And believe it or not, most do; At least those who I've had the luxury of working with. A foul is a foul. A travel, double dribble, etc, etc..is just that, no matter when it occurs. My only point, and I think you undertand it, is when it's late, be as sure as you can be, on what you're about to call. And look, that is much easier said than done. Becasue as an official, you only have a split second to decide. We don't have the luxury of instant replay. It's a tough *** gig. But I love it. I cannot do it as much as I did(health), but everytime I am able to step on the floor(HS/CBB), man do I love it. And man am I thankful.
How am I arrogant? By pointing out that a scorekeeper has absolutely nothing to do with the GRANTING of a timeout? How is that being arrogant? Sure the scorekeeper is a part of it. But he/she has no authority to when otrif it is granted.
Also, thanks for clarifying how and when the clock stops---Had no idea.[thumb2]
I'm not your typical IU fan. I like Kentucky. Grew up rooting for IU and UK. Family split. It just how things was. I give UK fans ****...Its fun. And for those who actually know me, they hnow how I am. It's all good as long as I am praising BBN. But when I dont........Oh, boy.
Got a brother in law that does it, I know where you're coming from. Still my main peeve is what I call a"makeup call." Just because you screw up one call don't make another one to justify equal standards, no one is perfect.
I tried explaining that rule/non-rule earlier. You can call a TO while in the air, as longs as its not to prevent you from going OOB, or into he back court. Obviously it wasn't for either of those reasons.
And to touch on what you said about the officials being aware of an impending, and quick timeout...I'd guarantee they were. MOF, I'd be shocked if they weren't. I've been in this situation a 1,000x's. In college its usually an assistant,who will come over and let us know exactly what they are going to do. "Hey, as soon as we catch the ball, he's been intruscted to call a timeout". Which I answer with---"fine, but make sure he at least verbalizes it, or signals for it". Because what you cannot do, is anticipate a clean catch. You have a play where player is bobbling the inbound, and you blow the whistle? Oh, man. That can get bad.
These are parts of officiating that the fans just don't understand.
I've seen hundreds of plays that were ended by the whistle when the player wasn't down. Player is going down and fumbles. Another player picks up the ball and runs with it but is stopped and told the play is dead because the whistle blew. The play didn't end itself.
The "make-up" call sometimes is overblown. Not saying it doesn't happen, because it does. But more often than not, a "bad call" followed by a "bang-bang call". gives the assumption of a make-up call. And hell sometimes it may be just that. We've all been guilty of it. It's called being human.[smoke]
I have been off the board for a couple of days and haven't read all 5 pages of this thread, so someone may have mentioned this earlier. But, as bad as the walk was, I thought the obvious carrying the ball, earlier in the 2nd half, was as blatantly obvious as the walk, with no call.
I'm not your typical IU fan. I like Kentucky. Grew up rooting for IU and UK. Family split. It just how things was. I give UK fans ****...Its fun. And for those who actually know me, they hnow how I am. It's all good as long as I am praising BBN. But when I dont........Oh, boy.
Yeah we're proudly born with that big blue attitude.
I have to admit I've called you guys way worse then human,lol, and I know you'll disagree but the overall officiating in the last 10 years has gone down hill. More blown calls that affects the final score in almost every sport.
Again, if the player fumbles and the refs blows the whistle, he has killed the play. The play on the field didn't kill the play.
It has. A lot has to do with the non-advancement of younger officials. A lot who are better than those who have been doing it for 25+ years. Also the amount of games worked. Back in my hey-day, I worked 65-70 D1 games a year, not to mention another 25 lower level games, on top of HS ball. It takes it toll. With as many officials as there are, there's no reason for any one D1 official to work over 55-60 games. Thats more than enough. But until it becomes seen as a profession(never will happen), there's absolutely no way to mandate this. Assigners, HOO(heads of Officials) are going to give the bulk of the high-prfile games/conference games, to those who've been around. No matter how good/bad they may be.
Secondly, the game itslef. It has changed drastically. Much faster. The speed of a D1 basketball game is incredible. Add the level that it is played at, and man its a tough, tough gig.
Thrid: Constant rule changes. Imagine doing your job the same way for 10 years, and then suddenly, every year something new is added, tweaked, reversed, subtracted, etc, etc...Now you have all these changes, mixing it with 200 different interpretations.
And finally, technology. Officiating is scrutinized more than it ever was. And it's because of technology. A lot of the calls you see missed today, were being missed 10 years ago, hell 5 years ago. You just didn't know b/c there wasn't 75 different cameras , with 45 diferent angles showing you the missed call.
With all that being said, the responsibility is still with the officials. And even with all I described, the officiating could be better. Much better to be exact. But until an effort is put forth by the officials, the NCAA, assigners and head of officials, it won't happen.
So why do you think he blew the whistle? Lets use this as an example:
Running back's forward momentum is stopped. But BEFORE the official can blow his whistle, defense knocks the ball loose. Defense picks it up and starts to run. Official then blows his whistle, thus STOPPING the action. The play was over when the official had determined forward momentum had stopped. Right then. Its over. Him blowing the whistle was to STOP play. And why? Because the play was over due to forward progress being stopped.
I hope this helps.
I will give you my own. The ball carrier is falling down. The ball is knocked out but the official doesn't see it. All he sees is the player hit the ground and has no idea of where the ball is. An opposing player picks up the ball and starts running but is called back because the whistle blew. The play did not kill the action. The official did by blowing the whistle. Once the whistle blows, the play is, for all practical purposes, dead.
I guess we can split hairs and say the action is dead when the official decides it is dead but in the real world, the only way fans and players know it is dead is when the whistle blows. Thus, at that point it is dead.
I'll ask again, why did the official blow the whistle? He did so because he thought the player was down---thus making the play DEAD. So he blows his whistle---to STOP the play.
Well, you were told wrong or there was an inadvertent whistle. Forward progress stopped can end a play also. That was just an example if one way and play ends itself. The whistle has never ended a play in football. It is simply a notification to signify the play is over but it doesn't end the play itself. That is done by the actions of the player, not the whistle. It is a common misconception people have and in particular coaches have about the game. I was always taught to play until the whistle is blown, as I'm sure many many of you were as well but it was wrong and a misconception. Now it has become a point of emphasis at all levels to change that misconception. It's lead to an entire culture in football and it's really being addresses to try and change that mindset. But it's always been that way. Sadly, not every official work officiates football knows that.
C'mon,now. You have to be pulling my leg? Did Jarms put you up to this?[smoke]
Exactly, the whistle is an indication that the play is over. The official ended the play because he believed the runner to be down. That is a mistake by the official.
It works both ways though and you could say that you are splitting hairs with thiS. The official stopped the play, he blew his whistle to indicate that play was dead and to let everyone know that the play had stopped, both players and fans. An inadvertant whistle is the ONLY scenario where you could make this kind of argument. Every other situation and play, the action stops the play, not the whistle.
This. The whistle doesn't make a play dead---It stops it. It indicates FOR the players,coaches,other officials, and of course THEW FANS,that the play is OVER.
A violation,a foul, an infraction, a runner being down, a runner being OOB, always happens BEFORE the whistle. Always. So by knowing that a violation a foul, etc,etc...causes a play to be dead, how can this not be understood? The whistle is a simple alarm saying---"plays over folks".
Clearly you don't. Read them and will see that it says that the clock stops when signaled by the official and it is stopped by the official timekeeper, not the arrogant official who thinks he can stop it whenever he feels like, nor the score keeper. You are a jerk. If you are really an official, you are why they have a bad rep. Follow the rules as written, not how you'd like it to be.
The arrogant official (such as you) can review to see if the clock didn't stop after he made his signal to stop the clock. It doesn't give him the right to adjust it willy nilly to help one team or another.
Thank you for the clarification on the TO rule. Regarding your travel comment, I think it's a little more subjective for the ref. For instance, a ref isn't going to allow you to run the length of the court if you're "fumbling" the ball the whole way. Imagine tipping the ball to yourself moving down the court the whole time. You may not technically have firm possession, but I can't see a ref allowing either.
No,but technically you could. And TBH, if you couldn't genuinely determine if said player was purposely doint this----well it's not a travel . By rule it's a fumble.