Question for Clemson alumni

[ScoobaScooby]

I would be very much in favor of changing the name of Tillman. Other than founding Clemson, Benjamin Tillman was not a good person. I do no think we should have our "landmark" building be named after such a person. I am also in agreement of changing the honors college name from Calhoun to someone/something else.

Graduated 2015

 

[spskillz]

What is your position on removing the names of John C Calhoun and Ben Tillman from the honors college and/or campus buildings? Please give your graduation year along with any response you may offer.

Yes. Finished from the Honors College in 2002.

 

[DClemsonTiger]

Change the names (or, in view of Heritage Act, have admin/BOT indicate that you would prefer renaming)

2009

 

[ClemsonGentleman]

Name a building to memorialize Walter Cox for his distinguished multifaceted service to Clemson.

 

[spskillz]

We need to stop with the “whataboutisms”

Clemson can’t do a damn thing about the Lincoln and Washington Monument in DC. This conversation is about a building on Clemson’s campus and about the name given to the honors college. Let’s focus on that instead of using “whataboutisms” to argue why Clemson can’t do something related to Clemson University

The Lincoln thing is nonsense anyhow, everyone knows how his story transpired.

 

[PawsFan]

What is your position on removing the names of John C Calhoun and Ben Tillman from the honors college and/or campus buildings? Please give your graduation year along with any response you may offer.

You can't judge historical figures through 2020 eyes. And folks outside the state should have no say on what goes on in our house.

I don't see DW4 trying to change the name of the city of Houston.

CU, '94

 

[steele-tiger]

I definitely think you should rename Tillman. It wasn't even the original name of the building and Tillman definitely has a past that shouldn't be celebrated in any context.

Calhoun is primary known for being virulently pro-slavery. So it is fairly easy to get behind renaming the Honors College, but keeping the rest of the history with his house as long as proper context is applied to it.

In my opinion it is fairly easy to delineate between Tillman and Calhoun who were primary known for being associated with slavery and racism versus Washington, Lincoln who legacy is not intertwined with pro-slavery. Or Clemson who despite owning slaves it really isn't a large part of his legacy.

The only people who bring up Washington and Lincoln and the people trying to make odd slippery slope arguments.


05

 

[CU Alumnus]

You can't judge historical figures through 2020 eyes. And folks outside the state should have no say on what goes on in our house.

I don't see DW4 trying to change the name of the city of Houston.

CU, '94

As Alumni, I think DW and DH do get a say.

I do agree that anyone not affiliated with Clemson (Alumni, donor, employee) should get NO say, other than the state legislature (since they will have to approve it).

 

[Florida Tiger_rivals]

18 alum
I’m voting no for change you can’t erase history and there’s no Clemson without these people. In 2017 one of my professors conducted a discussion obviously Tillman and Calhoun were racist and debate why Clemson needed change and move away from these people. I’m a little older than the avg students so I rebutted money talks and BS stinks. Put your money on the podium if you’re implementing change lol from that day on my avg went from a 98% to 88.5%.

 

[MKOTiger]

Tillman was a murdering POS whose son got the building renamed after him due to monetary contributions. John C Calhoun was VP of the US and lived in a time (like other political figures) when practices (Like slavery) that are despicable today were socially accepted and deemed financially necessary (which puts the political position of of southern politicians of that day in direct opposition of current views). It doesn’t mean it was right but it it does show a socially accepted political motive. We aren’t taking down memorials or homes of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington and we similarly shouldn’t destroy or call John C Calhouns house something other than it is. That being said, the name Tillman should be struck from everything on Clemson University soil. The guy murdered people, plain and simple. That’s never been ok in the history of mankind.

 

[FLaw47]

I haven't read the entire thread so I'm sorry if someone else has articulated my points.

Listen, none of this is that hard. It's not whitewashing history to change the name on a building. I bet none of you were mad when they changed Leningrad back to St. Petersburg. You make decisions on a case by case basis on a few different criteria.

1. How ****** was the person relative to the time the lived in? Ben Tillman was 100% a piece of **** in the time he lived. His views and statements were extremely racist even in those more racist times. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, however, were not notably ****** based on their time period. Calhoun is a closer call.
2. How long has the thing been called what it is? Tillman Hall hasn't even been named what it is for 100 years. Calhoun Honors even less. Tillman was renamed to something ******. No brainer, not enough history for either of them.
3. What was the context of the thing when it was named? Calhoun I have no idea. Tillman hall was named well after Tillman had died and when Civil Rights was (finally) starting to become a real topic in this country. The context isn't worth saving. Note: this also applies to most confederate monuments and the confederate flag. They were built (or flown) mostly during periods of societal progress as a giant middle finger to black people. Inexcusable.

Change the name of both. No need to honor either of them in this way. There's no slippery slope here, you trolls.

EDIT: Oh, graduated 2010.

 

[Insomniac903]

09 Alum. Remove it and Tillman. For those worried about losing the history, I'm sure we can include the story of us changing the name as part of the history. Boom problem solved.

 

[tiger7557]

Class of '97, Industrial Engineering, AFROTC

Tough question....on one hand, I don't think there are too many buildings/statues named after "Hitler" or other hateful Nazi leaders in Germany or people clamoring for Germany to remember/'hold on' to that chapter of their history.

But on the other hand, Tillman Hall is Tillman Hall. I'm black and I'll never forget my AFROTC memories on the 3d floor of Tillman Hall....like to take my sons there whenever we return for a game...if the name changes, my memories will still be from Tillman Hall.

Only name that matters to me is "Clemson"

 

[RagsToRiches2]

Change anything that memorializes these SOB’s. Not about changing history. It’s about honoring the honorable and condemning the deplorable. We can have a museum about Tillman et al if you want. But it won’t be something his descendants will be proud about I can tell you that. Better if he’s forgotten altogether for their sake.

2012, 2015

 

[SlovenskoTiger]

I'm afraid we are on the wrong side of history keeping those names. And, like it or not, naming a building for someone honors them and naming a college for someone honors them. Neither of these men deserve to be honored. Tillman was an ignorant thug and Calhoun's treasonous view of our country led to the civil war. Old Main and Ben Skardon Honors College suits me.
BA Econ 1968

I like this. Make it so.
'07

 

[coop#]

What is Clemson's position on changing back to Old Main? Have they petioned the state legislator to change it back ? What if we just started calling it Old Main anyway?

 

[CU Alumnus]

Class of '97, Industrial Engineering, AFROTC

Tough question....on one hand, I don't think there are too many buildings/statues named after "Hitler" or other hateful Nazi leaders in Germany or people clamoring for Germany to remember/'hold on' to that chapter of their history.

But on the other hand, Tillman Hall is Tillman Hall. I'm black and I'll never forget my AFROTC memories on the 3d floor of Tillman Hall....like to take my sons there whenever we return for a game...if the name changes, my memories will still be from Tillman Hall.

Only name that matters to me is "Clemson"

Clemson IE, class of '96 here. You sound like someone I remember, though my memory is shvt for names.....

As to Germany - this is an aside but I think Germany may have gone too far the other way. Do they even TEACH WWII in Germany? Would be kinda rough to start a lesson with "man we were a bunch of ********......."

Change anything that memorializes these SOB’s. Not about changing history. It’s about honoring the honorable and condemning the deplorable. We can have a museum about Tillman et al if you want. But it won’t be something his descendants will be proud about I can tell you that. Better if he’s forgotten altogether for their sake.

2012, 2015

1) I see what you did there with "deplorable" whether you meant to or not.

2) Just PLEASE don't put that damn museum in Clemson. If we change this, let's just do it completely and be done with it. I don't wanna be having this conversation again in a few years.

 

[RagsToRiches2]

Clemson IE, class of '96 here. You sound like someone I remember, though my memory is shvt for names.....

As to Germany - this is an aside but I think Germany may have gone too far the other way. Do they even TEACH WWII in Germany? Would be kinda rough to start a lesson with "man we were a bunch of ********......."



1) I see what you did there with "deplorable" whether you meant to or not.

2) Just PLEASE don't put that damn museum in Clemson. If we change this, let's just do it completely and be done with it. I don't wanna be having this conversation again in a few years.

Bryan Stevenson (Just Mercy) has a great quote that if you go to Germany you know about the dark past, not because nazi leaders are memorialized, but because history is properly taught so as to never repeat it. Same thing in places like Rwanda and South Africa. But here in the south. We don’t adequately teach about the atrocities of the past, but rather celebrate them with these statues, names, etc. We could learn from these other countries.

The word deplorable was intentional.

I was more tongue in cheek about the museum.

 

[CUTiger1977]

1977
Pickens County was part of the Pendleton District that was first settled legally by Revolutionary War Soldiers. It was Cherokee land that was taken from them after the war for siding with the British. Should we abandon all of the land that Clemson sits on because it was taken from the Native Americans?

The early settlers were given land grants as payments and brought slaves from Virginia to help farm the land.
Frank Howard's wife(my cousin) descends from families that were slave owners. Should all references to Frank Howard be removed from campus?

Dean Cox(my cousin) has a statue on campus. He descends from multiple Revolutionary War Patriots that became land owners with slaves. Should his statue be removed from campus?

I don't know DJ Greenlee's heritage but the Greenlee's of Anderson descend from Peter Greenlee who was the overseer on the Washington Estate and brought slaves to the farms in Anderson County. George Washington owned hundreds of slaves. A lot of people in Anderson, Pickens and Oconee counties descend from slaves and slave owners.

I descend from both slave owners and slaves. I refuse to be offended by things that happened over a 150 years ago.

 

[ctiger98]

1998 grad - no problem changing the names if it offends people

 

[CU Alumnus]

Bryan Stevenson (Just Mercy) has a great quote that if you go to Germany you know about the dark past, not because nazi leaders are memorialized, but because history is properly taught so as to never repeat it. Same thing in places like Rwanda and South Africa. But here in the south. We don’t adequately teach about the atrocities of the past, but rather celebrate them with these statues, names, etc. We could learn from these other countries.

The word deplorable was intentional.

I was more tongue in cheek about the museum.

Not gonna comment further on the deplorable comment. Not because I think it doesn't apply to these guys but because of the obvious political statement you're making about current events and I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[CUGrad1979]

Class of 79

1. Change Tillman back to Old Main, its original name.
2. Change Calhoun to simply the Honors College or name it after RC Edwards or Dean Cox.
3. Leave the Calhoun historical home on campus.
4. Name a building after Harvey Gantt.

 

[tiger7557]

Clemson IE, class of '96 here. You sound like someone I remember, though my memory is shvt for names......

I'm sure I would remember your face...I think I was the only guy in Air Force ROTC uniform on Thursdays in Freeman Hall.

 

[ChucktownK]

No I don't believe in changing names based on whims, its your history. Learn from it.

Every one has bad and good in their life. Clemson would not be where it is today if not for Calhoun or Tillman, or others. You can accept that they did bad things while acknowledging they did a lot for the school we love, not removing them and revising history because you don't like something they did.

 

[coldbud1994]

Change them

BLA '94

 

[tiger622]

Change Tillman back to Old Main ASAP.

Class of 87.

 

[kgwillison]

Well I like to be consistent. I’m sure you will support me one day when we march to remove the Lincoln memorial

Pretty sad when you are more willing to march to change the name of the monument dedicated to the Man who signed the Emancipation Proclamation than Black Lives Matter.

 

[IcelandTiger]

Pretty sad when you are more willing to march to change the name of the monument dedicated to the Man who signed the Emancipation Proclamation than Black Lives Matter.

Don’t project what you think I’m willing to do or not do

 

[ClemsonGentleman]

Technically Calhoun Mansion is Fort Hill. That's the name of the plantation. It is also, technically, a museum and on the Register of National Historical Places. It's not unlike Mt. Vernon and Monticello.

 

[EastCHTiger]

Class of 79

1. Change Tillman back to Old Main, its original name.
2. Change Calhoun to simply the Honors College or name it after RC Edwards or Dean Cox.
3. Leave the Calhoun historical home on campus.
4. Name a building after Harvey Gantt.

CU 96

I think this matches my opinion fairly well.

 

[FLaw47]

1977
Pickens County was part of the Pendleton District that was first settled legally by Revolutionary War Soldiers. It was Cherokee land that was taken from them after the war for siding with the British. Should we abandon all of the land that Clemson sits on because it was taken from the Native Americans?

The early settlers were given land grants as payments and brought slaves from Virginia to help farm the land.
Frank Howard's wife(my cousin) descends from families that were slave owners. Should all references to Frank Howard be removed from campus?

Dean Cox(my cousin) has a statue on campus. He descends from multiple Revolutionary War Patriots that became land owners with slaves. Should his statue be removed from campus?

I don't know DJ Greenlee's heritage but the Greenlee's of Anderson descend from Peter Greenlee who was the overseer on the Washington Estate and brought slaves to the farms in Anderson County. George Washington owned hundreds of slaves. A lot of people in Anderson, Pickens and Oconee counties descend from slaves and slave owners.

I descend from both slave owners and slaves. I refuse to be offended by things that happened over a 150 years ago.

I don't feel like you were always this dense but I'm getting old and my memory isn't what it once was.

 

[CU Alumnus]

If Tillman Hall is renamed, are there any financial ramifications? I'm assuming that there isn't some sort of binding contract that says "The Tillman family will pay Clemson $X to name the main building Tillman Hall" or something, but I'm not sure if there are any sort of legal issues aside from the Legislature thing.

What is Clemson's position on changing back to Old Main? Have they petioned the state legislator to change it back ? What if we just started calling it Old Main anyway?

Had that same thought above, and I swear I remember one game where Davis did refer to Tillman as "The Main Building."

 

[IcelandTiger]

If Tillman Hall is renamed, are there any financial ramifications? I'm assuming that there isn't some sort of binding contract that says "The Tillman family will pay Clemson $X to name the main building Tillman Hall" or something, but I'm not sure if there are any sort of legal issues aside from the Legislature thing.



Had that same thought above, and I swear I remember one game where Davis did refer to Tillman as "The Main Building."

I doubt there are any ties to money but could be mistaken. I’m assuming tax deductible donations have no strings attached

 

[UpstateTgrFan]

What is your position on removing the names of John C Calhoun and Ben Tillman from the honors college and/or campus buildings? Please give your graduation year along with any response you may offer.

c/o 2005
Rename Tillman Hall to Old Main
Rename Honors College to Gantt or R.C. Edwards

Proper place for discussion of Tillman and Calhoun is in museums with context and exhibits of their beliefs and behaviors. A museum does not rewrite or erase history. It teaches. Having a building named after you is an honor. These buildings should not continue to be named to honor Tillman or Calhoun.

On a side note, I went to Clemson on Sunday for the first time in two years. The development adjacent to campus and glut of construction on campus spoils the true spirit and history of Clemson far more than changing the names of these two buildings ever could. Both town and gown are being exploited for every last dime people can get out of the place.

 

[CU Alumnus]

I doubt there are any ties to money but could be mistaken. I’m assuming tax deductible donations have no strings attached

I suspect you're right.

 

[CU Alumnus]

On a side note, I went to Clemson on Sunday for the first time in two years. The development adjacent to campus and glut of construction on campus spoils the true spirit and history of Clemson far more than changing the names of these two buildings ever could. Both town and gown are being exploited for every last dime people can get out of the place.

Personal favorite is the apartment complex that had to be evacuated because the plumbing is all screwed up.

 

[MillerHighLife21]

2002

Old Main / Gantt Hall

James Barker Honors College
- The Top 20 initiative and steps he took, that many viscerally opposed, are one of the biggest reasons that our university and football program are where it is today. Dabo being the representative for the AARC was critical in my opinion, to turning us into an example of what college football should be.

Naming the honors college after Barker would be most appropriate.

 

[IcelandTiger]

2002

Old Main / Gantt Hall

James Barker Honors College
- The Top 20 initiative and steps he took, that many viscerally opposed, are one of the biggest reasons that our university and football program are where it is today. Dabo being the representative for the AARC was critical in my opinion, to turning us into an example of what college football should be.

Naming the honors college after Barker would be most appropriate.

The top 20 initiative was fantastic, but I don’t know that it contributed to football. That seemed to be driven by a commitment to winning from the board down and also Spurrier dominating is

 

[Beachcomber]

Class of 1982.

I agree with others to go back to the original name Old Main.

As far as the honors college, I would like to see it named after Colonel Skarden. He represents the best of Clemson’s military history and was an excellent professor. If you ask me what course has impacted my career the most it would be Colonel Skardon’s Business Writing class. This incredible Clemson hero needs the honors college named after him.

 

[kgwillison]

I believe that the multicultural student center is currently named for Harvey Gantt.