Netflix: Waco

[dbjork6317]

Under the disclaimer that this is not meant to demand any sort of religious view (and I am glad we live in a country where you can have a different religious view than me and, as you've said, not die for it as in other countries), since we are in a place with rabid Clemson football fans, I am interested in whether it makes you squirm that Coach Swinney and a lot of the balance of those who call the Reeves Football Complex their workplace seem convicted in their Christian Faith.

You state above that you "believe it is morally wrong to support or perpetuate the basing of life and decision making on behaviors on a falsehood." Would you tell that to Dabo Swinney? I think basing decisions and behavior at least somewhat on Christian faith is what he and many close to him within the Clemson program have done and continue to do. I'm just interested in whether all this "moral wrong" you see in the Clemson program affects your sentiment toward it.

Again, not a flame whatsoever. To me, always a good thing when there are people to press on what you believe; helps you firm up your own beliefs.

Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when Coach Swinney references his faith. And it concerns me as to how he seems to run the program from a faith based ideology. By that I mean I wonder would he hire a person who didn’t have similar religious beliefs? I don’t know if he would or not or if he has or not, but its a concern.

And I would, absolutely, say that to him or anyone else in the Clemson program. Now if I happened to see him out at Bi-Lo, would I march up to him and just say that to him? No, of course not. But if we were in a situation where such a conversation were appropriate, I would not hold back on expressing my views just because of his status and success at Clemson. I doubt that situation will ever occur.

On the morality front, I do not believe that Coach Swinney is purposefully perpetuating a falsehood. I believe he genuinely holds the religious beliefs he claims he does. I do believe he is wrong about those beliefs, but to me there’s a difference between someone knowingly spreading a falsehood and someone who genuinely believes something that happens to be incorrect.

I think there are people of “faith” who aren’t genuine and who are either knowingly perpetuating a falsehood or just don’t care either way, and I think even Christians will admit those people do indeed exist. I don’t think Dabo is one of those people. The sense of morality in terms of not spreading a falsehood is directed primarily at myself. I believe that its a matter of integrity. Again, its not about militantism, I’m not marching up to people in the streets or protesting at churches. I don’t believe that a person who believes differently than me is a bad person, but I do believe that if I stay quiet and let someone I care about live their life based on something I fervently believe to not be true then that makes me a bad person.

Moreover, although I believe Dabo is wrong about the source and reason for many of the values he has, I do share many of those same values. So I can appreciate and respect many of the things he stands for that have nothing really to do with religious beliefs. You don’t have to be religious to believe in hard work, discipline, accountability. You don’t have to be religious to care about helping other people in times of need, to go out of your way to be kind to others.

 

[gooddogjudge]

Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when Coach Swinney references his faith. And it concerns me as to how he seems to run the program from a faith based ideology. By that I mean I wonder would he hire a person who didn’t have similar religious beliefs? I don’t know if he would or not or if he has or not, but its a concern.

And I would, absolutely, say that to him or anyone else in the Clemson program. Now if I happened to see him out at Bi-Lo, would I march up to him and just say that to him? No, of course not. But if we were in a situation where such a conversation were appropriate, I would not hold back on expressing my views just because of his status and success at Clemson. I doubt that situation will ever occur.

On the morality front, I do not believe that Coach Swinney is purposefully perpetuating a falsehood. I believe he genuinely holds the religious beliefs he claims he does. I do believe he is wrong about those beliefs, but to me there’s a difference between someone knowingly spreading a falsehood and someone who genuinely believes something that happens to be incorrect.

I think there are people of “faith” who aren’t genuine and who are either knowingly perpetuating a falsehood or just don’t care either way, and I think even Christians will admit those people do indeed exist. I don’t think Dabo is one of those people. The sense of morality in terms of not spreading a falsehood is directed primarily at myself. I believe that its a matter of integrity. Again, its not about militantism, I’m not marching up to people in the streets or protesting at churches. I don’t believe that a person who believes differently than me is a bad person, but I do believe that if I stay quiet and let someone I care about live their life based on something I fervently believe to not be true then that makes me a bad person.

Moreover, although I believe Dabo is wrong about the source and reason for many of the values he has, I do share many of those same values. So I can appreciate and respect many of the things he stands for that have nothing really to do with religious beliefs. You don’t have to be religious to believe in hard work, discipline, accountability. You don’t have to be religious to care about helping other people in times of need, to go out of your way to be kind to others.

What do you believe the falsehood to be...that Jesus did not exist or that he is not the Son of God...or both? Or something else?

 

[Trench Warfare]

Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when Coach Swinney references his faith. And it concerns me as to how he seems to run the program from a faith based ideology. By that I mean I wonder would he hire a person who didn’t have similar religious beliefs? I don’t know if he would or not or if he has or not, but its a concern.

And I would, absolutely, say that to him or anyone else in the Clemson program. Now if I happened to see him out at Bi-Lo, would I march up to him and just say that to him? No, of course not. But if we were in a situation where such a conversation were appropriate, I would not hold back on expressing my views just because of his status and success at Clemson. I doubt that situation will ever occur.

On the morality front, I do not believe that Coach Swinney is purposefully perpetuating a falsehood. I believe he genuinely holds the religious beliefs he claims he does. I do believe he is wrong about those beliefs, but to me there’s a difference between someone knowingly spreading a falsehood and someone who genuinely believes something that happens to be incorrect.

I think there are people of “faith” who aren’t genuine and who are either knowingly perpetuating a falsehood or just don’t care either way, and I think even Christians will admit those people do indeed exist. I don’t think Dabo is one of those people. The sense of morality in terms of not spreading a falsehood is directed primarily at myself. I believe that its a matter of integrity. Again, its not about militantism, I’m not marching up to people in the streets or protesting at churches. I don’t believe that a person who believes differently than me is a bad person, but I do believe that if I stay quiet and let someone I care about live their life based on something I fervently believe to not be true then that makes me a bad person.

Moreover, although I believe Dabo is wrong about the source and reason for many of the values he has, I do share many of those same values. So I can appreciate and respect many of the things he stands for that have nothing really to do with religious beliefs. You don’t have to be religious to believe in hard work, discipline, accountability. You don’t have to be religious to care about helping other people in times of need, to go out of your way to be kind to others.

We agree to disagree on certain points, but you do a heck of a job identifying the nuances to how you think about it. Much better than a "GTFO" type of post. Again, not to press in any form or fashion and more out of curiosity only, do you believe in a god? If so, is that god espoused by any religion in existence as of today? If not, in your belief, how did matter come into existence?

 

[dbjork6317]

What do you believe the falsehood to be...that Jesus did not exist or that he is not the Son of God...or both? Or something else?

I believe the basic falsehood to be that there is a divine being who has an interest in our day to day behaviors and sets forth some moral code that we should attempt to abide by.

In my mind, pretty much every religion operates on that general basis. By virtue of not believing that, I also don’t believe in the unnatural beliefs held by specific religions. To your example I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God or was divine in any way and I do not believe he rose from the dead.

But, the basic issue of a divine being that judges your everyday behavior is really the important part. If you told me you believed that someone rose from the dead 2,000 years ago, on its own I’d just kind of shrug at that. It’d be like someone saying the earth was flat, its not really worth getting bothered by. But it comes with the idea that we must behave or act a specific way and that is what I primarily take issue with.

 

[dbjork6317]

We agree to disagree on certain points, but you do a heck of a job identifying the nuances to how you think about it. Much better than a "GTFO" type of post. Again, not to press in any form or fashion and more out of curiosity only, do you believe in a god? If so, is that god espoused by any religion in existence as of today? If not, in your belief, how did matter come into existence?

No, I do not believe in any God. And I have no idea how matter came into existence, and to be honest I’m comfortable not knowing that answer.

I’ll say this. When I do consider the possibility of a God, I tend to think that a “God” is simply just the rules that govern the natural world. Think about gravity and how that essentially is what makes everything in the universe function the way that it does. To me, if there is a God, that’s what God is. Its not an omnipotent being that cares about us or judges us or is even sentient.

 

[jeffcoat]

Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when Coach Swinney references his faith. And it concerns me as to how he seems to run the program from a faith based ideology. By that I mean I wonder would he hire a person who didn’t have similar religious beliefs? I don’t know if he would or not or if he has or not, but its a concern.

And I would, absolutely, say that to him or anyone else in the Clemson program. Now if I happened to see him out at Bi-Lo, would I march up to him and just say that to him? No, of course not. But if we were in a situation where such a conversation were appropriate, I would not hold back on expressing my views just because of his status and success at Clemson. I doubt that situation will ever occur.

On the morality front, I do not believe that Coach Swinney is purposefully perpetuating a falsehood. I believe he genuinely holds the religious beliefs he claims he does. I do believe he is wrong about those beliefs, but to me there’s a difference between someone knowingly spreading a falsehood and someone who genuinely believes something that happens to be incorrect.

I think there are people of “faith” who aren’t genuine and who are either knowingly perpetuating a falsehood or just don’t care either way, and I think even Christians will admit those people do indeed exist. I don’t think Dabo is one of those people. The sense of morality in terms of not spreading a falsehood is directed primarily at myself. I believe that its a matter of integrity. Again, its not about militantism, I’m not marching up to people in the streets or protesting at churches. I don’t believe that a person who believes differently than me is a bad person, but I do believe that if I stay quiet and let someone I care about live their life based on something I fervently believe to not be true then that makes me a bad person.

Moreover, although I believe Dabo is wrong about the source and reason for many of the values he has, I do share many of those same values. So I can appreciate and respect many of the things he stands for that have nothing really to do with religious beliefs. You don’t have to be religious to believe in hard work, discipline, accountability. You don’t have to be religious to care about helping other people in times of need, to go out of your way to be kind to others.

Interesting. Gotta admit I didn't read your whole post, but do you approve or disapprove of the culture Dabo intentionally sets or aspires to at Clemson.

 

[Trench Warfare]

No, I do not believe in any God. And I have no idea how matter came into existence, and to be honest I’m comfortable not knowing that answer.

I’ll say this. When I do consider the possibility of a God, I tend to think that a “God” is simply just the rules that govern the natural world. Think about gravity and how that essentially is what makes everything in the universe function the way that it does. To me, if there is a God, that’s what God is. Its not an omnipotent being that cares about us or judges us or is even sentient.

You can acknowledge that that set of views could be perceived as nebulous for someone declaring that views widely held by others in this country are a "falsehood," right? You probably already do. But for someone declaring other religions a "falsehood," I thought you'd have more truths/axioms of your own. Not having the slightest take on the origin of matter that you interact with every day is a tough one for me. Again not a flame, appreciate the debate 100%.

 

[ChicagoTiger85]

It’s so pointless. Christians - take your W and turn the cheek. You are the GOAT religion in the US and it’s not close. You ain’t gonna win over anonymous posters on TI by spouting rhetoric we have all heard before.
Non Christians yes we know how improbable some biblical events are. And yes we know there are hundreds of religions. But this is Clemson and Clemson has a lot of Christians.

Debate away somewhere else.

waco guy - lets hear some good stories from Dave’s Fun Park.

Just let it be known that this was started by:

But Christians don’t need to take such lame bait.

 

[gooddogjudge]

I believe the basic falsehood to be that there is a divine being who has an interest in our day to day behaviors and sets forth some moral code that we should attempt to abide by.

In my mind, pretty much every religion operates on that general basis. By virtue of not believing that, I also don’t believe in the unnatural beliefs held by specific religions. To your example I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God or was divine in any way and I do not believe he rose from the dead.

But, the basic issue of a divine being that judges your everyday behavior is really the important part. If you told me you believed that someone rose from the dead 2,000 years ago, on its own I’d just kind of shrug at that. It’d be like someone saying the earth was flat, its not really worth getting bothered by. But it comes with the idea that we must behave or act a specific way and that is what I primarily take issue with.

Interesting. I read a book once...More Than A Carpenter, I think it was titled. Written by statisticians to prove Jesus did not exist. You might like it.

 

[Goin Coastal]

You can acknowledge that that set of views could be perceived as nebulous for someone declaring that views widely held by others in this country are a "falsehood," right? You probably already do. But for someone declaring other religions a "falsehood," I thought you'd have more truths/axioms of your own. Not having the slightest take on the origin of matter that you interact with every day is a tough one for me. Again not a flame, appreciate the debate 100%.

I would say, just because someone can not explain everything does not make the explainable wrong. When you can't explain everything, it opens up the discussion for other ideas. The problem is when someone has another idea(or religion) and refuses to believe things that are backed by science, or refuses to accept the obvious because it makes their other theory wrong.

 

[PCHOI31]

I started the series on Netflix and it’s pretty entertaining. I googled the chain of events of what occurred and it’s pretty interesting - I appreciate everyone who recommended it. It’s def got a very good cast. Taylor Kitsch is quickly becoming one of my favorite actors - he shows he can play some varying roles (Friday Night Lights, Lone Survivor) but man, he plays this guy Koresh pretty well

OP - I’m curious if you have any insight. I can see how it’s personal for you and it might be difficult to share. But yeah, I’m very curious

 

[CU Alumnus]

Actually I have a good friend that was on flight 1549 and we have had this discussion. He had a young family at the time and everyone including Oprah put the hard press on him, but he passed. He said there were about 5 guys from the 1549 flight that made it their career for the next couple of years to be “survivors” and he wanted no part. We are both doing well today with the exception he is a Michigan die hard. He is has a great life except for Saturdays in the fall.

Alternate way to look at it - might be good to have another voice that tells how things really were there. Obviously the ATF and FBI are demonized. And based on tactics alone they should be.

But at the same time it seems that some of Koresh's faults get whitewashed. Some think he's nuts (I'm in that camp), some think he was completely innocent. Personally I think he should have gone to jail but there were literally no worse ways to do it than what the ATF (who shouldn't have even been involved - and IMO shouldn't even exist except as the name of a damn fun convenience store) and FBI did. Would be good to have a 'voice of reason' in the mix somewhere.

Nobody from the ATF/FBI will ever be prosecuted but it might make people realize that government law enforcement agencies should be viewed with a skeptical eye sometimes.

But you gotta do what's best for you and your family before worrying about the other stuff. Sometimes the past just needs to be let go.

 

[CU Alumnus]

It sounds like you watched the Netflix series. I still have not watched. Two questions I have before I bring myself to watch? First is just to see how accurate it is. Did they go into Dave’s memory? He had issues other places but he remembered everything. He had a crazy unique mind. Second, did they try to say he had sex with young girls? That was a false narrative put out. You can guess why. Dave had a thing for wives of other members, but the young girl thing was bs.

Holy **** Jackie. That is literally the main fault people claim against Koresh - child abuse. And you just killed it.

 

[sloanMB]

bump