Firing Lebby will not make a difference.......

[OG Goat Holder]

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

 

[theoriginalSALTYdog]

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

There's a lotta truth in what goat is saying.

Here's the inevitable truth. We can't consistently compete even if we spend with the bigger boys of the league. If we offer someone $5MM and the blue bloods offer even close to the same amount we're not getting that player. We would have to overspend to get those players and we simply don't have the money. If you disagree, look no further than Jordan Seaton at LSU. We offered the same amount they did. Instead of getting him, we ended up with Miles McVay, who has given up the most sacks in cfb and we overpaid to get him.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Worse case scenario if we fire Lebby is that the next guy sucks too. There's no drawback in at least trying to get better.

 

[KingVic]

It will make a difference if we actually get a head coach who can also recruit, and get an offensive coordinator that can help k1 reach his potential. I don’t understand why we can’t just pay Lebby to coach offense. In today’s landscape head coaches will accept coordinator positions after being fired (Virginia tech) just make him a high paying oc, get a lower level ndsu, and go hire arranda to coach D.

Be ambitious and it will matter. This is retarded to me to think we even have to question what to do.

 

[615dawg]

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

Wow goat. Wow.

you get it. we have to stop accepting mediocre.

 

[RocketDawg]

It will make a difference if we actually get a head coach who can also recruit, and get an offensive coordinator that can help k1 reach his potential. I don’t understand why we can’t just pay Lebby to coach offense. In today’s landscape head coaches will accept coordinator positions after being fired (Virginia tech) just make him a high paying oc, get a lower level ndsu, and go hire arranda to coach D.

Be ambitious and it will matter. This is retarded to me to think we even have to question what to do.

Might that person be Dan Mullen? He was pretty good developing Dak, and Kamario arguably might be better. Dan's also a pretty good overall coach.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I think on paper, the Lebby hire was fine. Not great, not terrible….just fine. These hires are always crap shoots, and calling it fine considers the broad context of the appeal of the job and the general difficulty of any school to nail a hire.

But, it didn’t take long for the ambiguity to wear off, and show that things just weren’t going to work long-term. We are over 2 years past the Toledo game at this point. It’s time for a change.

I’m still not certain that Selmon is guaranteed to 17 up the replacement (of course, he still might). He at least gave me a sliver of hope with the O’Conner hire as it illustrated he actually had his finger on the pulse of the expectation. But, I am 100% certain that Keenum needs to be nowhere near this search, or the decision making process.

 

[Villagedawg]

It will not. Just like in the long run firing (or running off) Shira, Tyler, Bellard, Felker, Sherril, Croom, Moorehead didn’t.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

I think on paper, the Lebby hire was fine. Not great, not terrible….just fine. These hires are always crap shoots, and calling it fine considers the broad context of the appeal of the job and the general difficulty of any school to nail a hire.

But, it didn’t take long for the ambiguity to wear off, and show that things just weren’t going to work long-term. We are over 2 years past the Toledo game at this point. It’s time for a change.

Loadholt and Hutzler were two glaring weaknesses. I can only assume there's a very small pool of candidates willing to join Lebby's staff and I think that is one of his biggest issues. The other is in-game decision making.

 

[Dawgzilla2]

It will make a difference if we actually get a head coach who can also recruit, and get an offensive coordinator that can help k1 reach his potential. I don’t understand why we can’t just pay Lebby to coach offense. In today’s landscape head coaches will accept coordinator positions after being fired (Virginia tech) just make him a high paying oc, get a lower level ndsu, and go hire arranda to coach D.

Be ambitious and it will matter. This is retarded to me to think we even have to question what to do.

Because he sucks is why we can't keep him. I don't see how anyone can look at the product on the field and think Lebby is a good OC.

 

[Yeti]

I think Lebby is fine at many things and could be successful..the first season to me didn’t count. No NIL no players. B B B But him keeping Hustler two years was joke and hiring and keeping Loadholt is a joke and shows me he ain’t the man. That said I would keep him. Why ? We cant pay players and buyouts. Get K1 signed before portal season. Advertise it to every portal player that will help.

 

[BigDawg0074]

I

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

I wouldn’t say all that money has been wasted. The game day experience needed a big upgrade and we got it. The lighting, concessions, sound, and amenities are pretty great now. It feels like it should with the kind of money college football costs and earns these days. The program has established that it is willing to spend money on recruiting and retention even if the staff hasn’t utilized that support very well. Selmon raised the baseline and he should get credit for that because it is absolutely necessary for success.

 

[BigDawg0074]

It will not. Just like in the long run firing (or running off) Shira, Tyler, Bellard, Felker, Sherril, Croom, Moorehead didn’t.

You don’t think firing Croom and hiring Mullen was a success? It’s good to know when someone’s two cents can be disregard.

 

[Seinfeld]

There's a lotta truth in what goat is saying.

Here's the inevitable truth. We can't consistently compete even if we spend with the bigger boys of the league. If we offer someone $5MM and the blue bloods offer even close to the same amount we're not getting that player. We would have to overspend to get those players and we simply don't have the money. If you disagree, look no further than Jordan Seaton at LSU. We offered the same amount they did. Instead of getting him, we ended up with Miles McVay, who has given up the most sacks in cfb and we overpaid to get him.

No disagreement, but the backbreaker with Seaton wasn't about us not getting him. It was about our sole contingency plan being an ineligible kid that frankly wasn't all that good to begin with

Same issue at QB and quite a few other positions apparently. It's like this staff targets a couple guys at every position, but if they don't land them, we're back to picking from a pile of leftovers that have already been picked through by every P4 team in the country, and we're likely paying way too much for them. This staff just doesn't have its collective finger on the pulse of what it takes to compete in this league. At all

 

[Seinfeld]

Worse case scenario if we fire Lebby is that the next guy sucks too. There's no drawback in at least trying to get better.

And as much as we keep hearing "but what if K1 goes with Lebby?", has anyone asked the question... what if K1 leaves BECAUSE Lebby is back? I mean, at some point K1 and family have to start looking out for his future, and Lebby's OL has now gotten him severely injured in short order in two consecutive seasons

 

[skip dog]

I'll admit, I have never looked at us as trying to keep up with or look up to Ole Miss. That mind set is lost on me, BUT, I think I see how you are lead to that conclusion, but only in football.....

One thing I wish we would admit, and build a culture around, is that we have trended towards having a hard hitting defense in many, many years past, and I guess I wish we would better build that cultural mind set.

When Dr. Zacharius hired Jackie Sherrill......he hired the hard nose, don't give a 17, mindset....... and I think that is what we need and what we have to have to reasonably end up where we want to be. <**say what you will about how the Sherrill years ended, but the beginning of his tenure, those years are what STATE needed****>

 

[Indndawg]

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

Nobody in stands

 

[Villagedawg]

You don’t think firing Croom and hiring Mullen was a success? It’s good to know when someone’s two cents can be disregard.

Short term mediocrity. 33-39 in conference. Where are we today? We haven’t been relevant onThanksgiving since before World War II, but sure, go for it.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Short term mediocrity. 33-39 in conference. Where are we today? We haven’t been relevant onThanksgiving since before World War II, but sure, go for it.

Personally, I think 33-39 is a lot better than 10-30, and 10-30 is a lot better than 3-19.

 

[FactCheckerBot]

Personally, I think 33-39 is a lot better than 10-30, and 10-30 is a lot better than 3-19.

Fact:

The math does indeed math.

 

[Villagedawg]

Personally, I think 33-39 is a lot better than 10-30, and 10-30 is a lot better than 3-19.

Undoubtedly better. But still not enough to be anything more than a conference win for most of the SEC. An also ran.

 

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

Loadholt and Hutzler were two glaring weaknesses. I can only assume there's a very small pool of candidates willing to join Lebby's staff and I think that is one of his biggest issues. The other is in-game decision making.

 

[POTUS]

Worse case scenario if we fire Lebby is that the next guy sucks too. There's no drawback in at least trying to get better.

Incorrect. Whatever we do that runs off K1 is a huge mistake. If that’s firing Lebby, we should keep him. If that’s keeping Lebby, we should can him. The QB is what matters.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

And as much as we keep hearing "but what if K1 goes with Lebby?", has anyone asked the question... what if K1 leaves BECAUSE Lebby is back? I mean, at some point K1 and family have to start looking out for his future, and Lebby's OL has now gotten him severely injured in short order in two consecutive seasons

I don’t think that’s really a possibility unless we finish 4-8 and the whole foundation breaks.

 

[theoriginalSALTYdog]

Personally, I think 33-39 is a lot better than 10-30, and 10-30 is a lot better than 3-19.

He also took us to 8 consecutive bowl games and won I believe 5 or 6 of them if I'm not mistaken.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Incorrect. Whatever we do that runs off K1 is a huge mistake. If that’s firing Lebby, we should keep him. If that’s keeping Lebby, we should can him. The QB is what matters.

 

[Ranchdawg]

SEC and ESPN are in control. Our Demographic does not fit their model for Championship games. No matter who we hire as head coach they will be bound by the SEC to play the role they have for us. Let's just keep Lebby and accept our SEC check at the end of each season.

 

[patdog]

I think Lebby is fine at many things and could be successful..the first season to me didn’t count. No NIL no players. B B B But him keeping Hustler two years was joke and hiring and keeping Loadholt is a joke and shows me he ain’t the man. That said I would keep him. Why ? We cant pay players and buyouts. Get K1 signed before portal season. Advertise it to every portal player that will help.

Things Lebby is fine at:
Developing Kamario Taylor
Recruiting & coaching WR.

Other than that I may as well be our coach.

 

[Maroon13]

Skip dog nails it.

I've felt State always tried to follow what Alabama did. We played a similar style ball and hired their people and recruited their state.

I get everyone thinks you need to have a high flying offense. But it has never been the Mississippi State culture or brand to be a throwing finesse team. To be successful at Mississippi state, you find raw athletes. You have simple running, ball control offense. You play field position and defense. That's Mississippi State football. I hope Selmon figures that out.

 

[idog]

Skip dog nails it.

I've felt State always tried to follow what Alabama did. We played a similar style ball and hired their people and recruited their state.

I get everyone thinks you need to have a high flying offense. But it has never been the Mississippi State culture or brand to be a throwing finesse team. To be successful at Mississippi state, you find raw athletes. You have simple running, ball control offense. You play field position and defense. That's Mississippi State football. I hope Selmon figures that out.

So you want to continue to do the very thing that has lead to us being the blue blood program we are?**

 

[Maroon13]

So you want to continue to do the very thing that has lead to us being the blue blood program we are?**

Dude, State is what it is. State will never be a blue blood even if Don Coryelle walks through the door young again.

YOU WILL NEVER SIGN THE PERSONELL necessary to run a finesse program at Mississippi State.

 

[DerHntr]

Summary of GOAT’s post:

1. We don’t know how to hire and use the wrong criteria.
2. We can’t do what other SEC programs are doing.
3. We need to change the culture for the administration and the fans.
4. Unless we get a good coach who doesn’t care what the fans think, we won’t be any good.

The entire post is a word salad. I have no idea what is being suggested.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I have no idea what is being suggested.

The above might just be the most accurate description of Mississippi State Football I’ve ever seen.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Skip dog nails it.

I've felt State always tried to follow what Alabama did. We played a similar style ball and hired their people and recruited their state.

I get everyone thinks you need to have a high flying offense. But it has never been the Mississippi State culture or brand to be a throwing finesse team. To be successful at Mississippi state, you find raw athletes. You have simple running, ball control offense. You play field position and defense. That's Mississippi State football. I hope Selmon figures that out.

Ball control can be achieved a variety of ways. The Air Raid does it as well. Mullen did it. So we don't just have to ground and pound.

 

[Bulldawg77]

Let’s unpack a few things
I hate this jortpage and these others that repeat a stupid narrative …duhh we dun have 5 coaches in 10 years…. Can’t far Lebby now…
Let’s talk about those 5 coaches
Mullen left for FL….FL >State ..we didn’t fire him. He was here 9 years won and moved on. Moorhead ..,mismanaged a roster and had Tudor gate, and no discipline. Won a few games but pissed away a 18 team that could have made the playoffs .
Leach died. Not our fault. ZA was a glorified interim.
Lebby . The record speaks for itself.

It’s not like we have fired a bunch of coaches. Reality is we fired two and let go of an interim. Get the idea that potential HCs coaches would view our job differently is false

 

[OG Goat Holder]

One thing I wish we would admit, and build a culture around, is that we have trended towards having a hard hitting defense in many, many years past, and I guess I wish we would better build that cultural mind set.

If we were going to go the coordinator route, we really missed a chance to get John Sumrall in 2023. He'd fit our program perfectly.

When Dr. Zacharius hired Jackie Sherrill......he hired the hard nose, don't give a 17, mindset....... and I think that is what we need and what we have to have to reasonably end up where we want to be. <**say what you will about how the Sherrill years ended, but the beginning of his tenure, those years are what STATE needed****>

100% agree. It's a trait Kang, Danny and Leach all had. More likely to get this with an older, more experienced guy, but once in a while, you find a younger guy with it.

 

[QuadrupleOption]

.....because we will just repeat our mistakes.

I told ya'll nearly 3 years ago that this hire was a mistake. Not because of Lenny himself, but because of the way we conducted and went about the search. We're using the wrong criteria. Now, I was guessing on Lenny specifically......and honestly his teams have been better than I thought, but the percentages were always high he wasn't going to be successful. And the problem starts at the top.

Our administration represents our fanbase perfectly. We do some good things and we really do put a strong foot forward in many ways. But the problem is, we grade ourselves vs. Ole Miss, we want desperately to be in the cool kids SEC club or whatever, and we really have no idea what we're doing in regards to football. Selmon himself is fine, and he'd do a good job at many places, but he's just a reflection of what we're trying to do here, which doesn't work.

It sickens me to see how much money our donors have pissed away the past 3 years, and all we have to show for it is a couple of fun Septembers. But as long as we continue to do what the other SEC teams are doing, we're going to continue to get these results. We are the last dog at the table. We simply do not have the culture to go head to head with other SEC teams, even if the money is comparable, because our money buys less. We have to change the culture (which involves us), or we're going to have to change what we're doing in the administration. Neither have a good chance of happening, I'm afraid, barring a Saban-type personality walking in the building somewhere who literally gives no shlts what our fans/donors think and has the political capital to pull that off.

This is one reason why I'd just assume keep Lenny, who will keep Taylor, and just roll the dice next year. Success is going to be very fleeting for us so better hold onto any chance you get to have it.

So what exactly are your solutions for changing the current state of our Athletic Department? I see a lot of "we ain't doing it right" but no actual proposals for a solution.

At the end of the day, we need to identify, recruit, land, and keep better players. Does that take more money? Better coaches? Better support staff? Hell if I know.

But we should probably start with better players in the second and third string so that losing 2-3 starters doesn't completely tank our season.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

So what exactly are your solutions for changing the current state of our Athletic Department? I see a lot of "we ain't doing it right" but no actual proposals for a solution.

1) Administration has to accept what MSU football is. We are a have-not in the SEC/Big 2, and always will be. Who is the administration, you might ask? Well, that's Keenum and Selmon. But this decision is bigger than just 2 men, who are doing the best they can. And, those positions can change. So we need like an athletic 'committee' or something, that can hammer out these mission statement sort of strategies for our entire athletic department. Or, have a strong personality like Byrne in the AD seat, and is willing to stay for a long time.

2) Once we have that in the place, we now move into what is the best plan for MSU football leadership. We identify a prototypical coach and what that looks like, and how we can replace this coach over and over and over. My personal opinion is that this prototype needs to be over 55 and have success at multiple levels of head coaching and has that hard nosed, chip on shoulder mindset that, because of No. 1 above, we know we need. Those guys are also less likely to leave.

3) We develop a repeatable concept for the program, that jives with No. 2 above. It should be defensive-first minded, with allowing innovation on offense. Our NIL is spent first and foremost on defense. This allows us to continually find and replace players. My personal opinion is that Arnett's 3-3-5 is perfect for us, and works well with ball control offenses. It's worked across multiple coaches. This doesn't mean the head coach has to be defensively inclined.....he just has to realize that we must lean defense first at MSU, and have an offense that works with that.

4) Recruiting/personnel plan - focus high school recruiting on MS, these guys are less likely to transfer, and likelier to be willing to be developed. Focus portal recruiting on G6 risers. Build our S&C around this.....not just the new shiny toy who makes good IG reels. Get 17ing strong on the lines, tailbacks and linebackers. Fast at the skill positions. MS players are generally very raw and would benefit with this type of development. It would also make more use of our smaller NIL budgets. We pay to retain.

5) Figure out fan engagement. We need fan buy-in and let them know we have a specific plan for everything. We have literally zero of that currently.

6) I'll throw in uniforms and logos just for good measure. I think we've settled the helmet stuff, finally. Beyond that, relegate script &tate down to where it should be in football, as a secondary logo. Put the banner MState back on the 50 and on TV/websites. Also, embrace weird uniforms........but keep the helmet maroon. We don't have any tradition, so no need to not mix it up, but the helmet is a staple.

 

[Slow Natives]

How many years in a row do you want to lose to Ole Miss? Your answer should determine your position on hiring or keeping.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

How many years in a row do you want to lose to Ole Miss? Your answer should determine your position on hiring or keeping.

@skip dog see what I mean?