So, exactly how badly did Lebby mismanage KT’s injury?

Perd Hapley

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Let’s look at all the information that is now public knowledge regarding the timeline of the past few weeks.

First, let’s look at the objective facts as reported by numerous sources. There is no debate on any of these items, really:

1) KT suffered the initial turf toe injury near the end of the Missouri game.

2) The turf toe injury was known by the coaching staff immediately, and during Bama gameweek preparation.

3) KT aggravated the existing turf toe injury on the last drive of the 3rd quarter against Alabama. MSU was down 42-17 at the start of the drive, scored a TD, failed the 2-point conversion, and was down 42-23 when giving the ball back to Bama. He came off field on his own power and went to the locker room after the drive, and did not return.

4) The aggravation was evidently severe enough that KT was unable to play at all against LSU - a full 2 weeks later.

5) Presumably, KT recovered enough to practice a little bit last week, as he was able to start against Oklahoma. However, he was not sharp at all.

6) KT reaggravated the existing injury aGAIN on a failed 4th down comversion attempt at the end of the first quarter against Oklahoma. He leaves the game, and does not return.

7) Several sources are now reporting his season is over, and he will have foot surgery this week.

Now, let’s dive a little further, and look at what could reasonably be inferred from the above information:

- KT likely did not practice at all for 2 weeks between Bama and LSU. If anything, he only got limited individual drills and some conditioning work. Definitely not full speed reps.

- KT likely practiced in a very limited capacity last week. Best case scenario is that he split reps 50/50 with Puckett, but I doubt it was even that much.

So now, there are sooooooo many questions:

1) Why in the absolute 17 was KT still in the game against Bama when we were down 42-17 late in the 3rd, while already known to have been nursing a turf toe injury? And furthermore, why put him even further at risk with a very questionable 2-point conversion attempt after scoring?

2) Moving over to the OU game, you know that in the past 3 weeks, you have your starting QB - who relies very heavily on his mobility - now immobile. You know he’s already aggravated the injury once. You also know he’s barely practiced at all in 3 weeks. You also know you’re about to go up against maybe the best defensive front 7 in the SEC. With all the things above known, why the 17 is he playing?

The rest is history. KT got injured against Mizzou. Our idiotic staff found a way to get him to reaggravate a very delicate injury TWICE in 3 games. He’s now going to miss the rest of the season, meaning 2 likely wins now suddenly look like tossups, and 3 winnable games are now going to be guaranteed blowout losses.

Just like anything else that has required any level of critical thinking in the past 3 years, Lebby has royally 17ed it up.
 

josebrown

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When everyone else heard get your thinking cap here, Lebby heard get the clap here, and just said nope…. It’s pretty obvious.
 

Howiefeltersnstch

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Exactly. Why play him at all. Its a 12 game 17ing season. Sit him for 3 or 4 weeks. Maybe he would be ready to finish the season. I was saying that during the Bama game. You cant rush turf toe. You cant play on it and it ever heal
 
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patdog

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I don't know. Considering that he rested it for two weeks twice and it still looked really bad from the start of both the Alabama and Oklahoma games, I suspect he was going to wind up needing surgery no matter what we did. I don't think another couple weeks of rest was going to matter much. Also, I suspect the prospect of having to play our #2 QB was a strong motivator to play him if he could play. In hindsight yeah, he doesn't play vs Alabama or Oklahoma. But if we do that he's probably still going to need surgery.
 

Howiefeltersnstch

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Before he went out and aggravated it playing against Bama it probly was not bad. Stage one or whatever. Personally I would have held him out Bama and LSU. What would that have been ? 3 or 4 weeks in the boot with daily therapy. He would have been tits up for OU game I bet. 2 losses that were basically guaranteed anyway with a K1 with no wheels. Me and Pat argued the point
 
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Perd Hapley

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Exactly. Why play him at all. Its a 12 game 17ing season. Sit him for 3 or 4 weeks. Maybe he would be ready to finish the season. I was saying that during the Bama game. You cant rush turf toe. You cant play on it and it ever heal
Yep. I mean, to be clear, I can understand the calculated risk of playing him against Bama. We’re 4-0 / 2-0, in the Top 20, big game at home, etc. But once you see he’s not sharp at all, and we get down in that big hole, just get him out of there after he throws that 2nd terrible pick.

Then, you can re-evaluate from there, and who knows what happens in the next several weeks. But after he already aggravates it once, you STILL can save face and let him rest for 4 weeks or so, and see where that goes. He could have potentially been available against Vandy, Auburn, and OM. I don’t see how in the 17 you keep forcing the issue with an injury like that.
 
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Perd Hapley

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I don't know. Considering that he rested it for two weeks twice and it still looked really bad from the start of both the Alabama and Oklahoma games, I suspect he was going to wind up needing surgery no matter what we did. I don't think another couple weeks of rest was going to matter much. Also, I suspect the prospect of having to play our #2 QB was a strong motivator to play him if he could play. In hindsight yeah, he doesn't play vs Alabama or Oklahoma. But if we do that he's probably still going to need surgery.
He didn’t rest it for 2 weeks twice. He rested it for 2 weeks once (between Bama and LSU games), practiced on it last week, then started the game on Saturday.
 

Perd Hapley

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I wasn’t aware our head coach did medical clearance. Don’t we have doctors to do that?

if the doc says he can go, you have to play him. So this is only on the staff if the docs said hold him and staff said, 17 that we are playing him.
That’s not how it works at all.
 
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patdog

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That’s not how it works at all.
Yeah. I covered this in another thread. The team medical staff has one job. To get the player back on the field ASAP. They are NOT there to do what's best for the player. It's real ugly, but it's not just Mississippi State. It's every major college or professional football team for the past 100 years.
 
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Howiefeltersnstch

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Yeah. I covered this in another thread. The team medical staff has one job. To get the player back on the field ASAP. They are NOT there to do what's best for the player. It's real ugly, but it's not just Mississippi State. It's every major college or professional football team for the past 100 years.
But see, imo, whats best for the team is get it healed first. Then you go win however many games are left. Not treating it from initial injury risks the whole season. You cant play without aggravating the injury. Even if we held him out for OU we would still be ready to roll the rest of the season. And surgery is only necessary in about 2% of cases. Requires a complete tear. So 4 weeks in a boot surely would have been enough. Google it for more info. If our doctors cant verify tear or no tear we got the wrong doctors
 
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Perd Hapley

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Yeah. I covered this in another thread. The team medical staff has one job. To get the player back on the field ASAP. They are NOT there to do what's best for the player. It's real ugly, but it's not just Mississippi State. It's every major college or professional football team for the past 100 years.
There’s some truth to that.

But moreover, there’s really no such thing as being “cleared” or “not cleared” for any musculoskeletal injury. It’s not like it’s a concussion (or a blood clot), where there are legitimate and objective lifethreatening circumstances that could arise from playing.

If its a ligament, tendon, or bone, the team medical staff will simply advise what the condition is, what could happen if its aggravated, what the recovery timeline is, what the real world implications are (mobility limitations, pain, and so forth). Then the player can provide his own feedback, demonstrate his availability (or lack thereof) through whatever exercises are recommended or self-assessment that only the player can make. Then the coach has to make the final call, considering NOT ONLY the physiological side, but also how much is the player actually prepared to help the team win, when looking at the whole picture. What also must be heavily weighed is the risk to a longer term injury.

But you’re right, the coach and player are generally both going to have a heavy bias towards the player being available, which is why some tact and nuance is required. A kicker can play with a broken arm, if he’s got a cast. Players have played various positions with a torn ACL. Some RB’s have played with a completely separated shoulder. It’s always case-by-case.
 
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quickstrike2

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All while sitting up there and not giving any information out like he was in the CIA and thinking he is the smartest guy in the room. That is actually going to backfire on him. He let him play when he shouldn't have and pissed the fanbase off with the lack of information while trying to save his own butt.
 

randystewart

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Jan 14, 2009
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Let’s look at all the information that is now public knowledge regarding the timeline of the past few weeks.

First, let’s look at the objective facts as reported by numerous sources. There is no debate on any of these items, really:

1) KT suffered the initial turf toe injury near the end of the Missouri game.

2) The turf toe injury was known by the coaching staff immediately, and during Bama gameweek preparation.

3) KT aggravated the existing turf toe injury on the last drive of the 3rd quarter against Alabama. MSU was down 42-17 at the start of the drive, scored a TD, failed the 2-point conversion, and was down 42-23 when giving the ball back to Bama. He came off field on his own power and went to the locker room after the drive, and did not return.

4) The aggravation was evidently severe enough that KT was unable to play at all against LSU - a full 2 weeks later.

5) Presumably, KT recovered enough to practice a little bit last week, as he was able to start against Oklahoma. However, he was not sharp at all.

6) KT reaggravated the existing injury aGAIN on a failed 4th down comversion attempt at the end of the first quarter against Oklahoma. He leaves the game, and does not return.

7) Several sources are now reporting his season is over, and he will have foot surgery this week.

Now, let’s dive a little further, and look at what could reasonably be inferred from the above information:

- KT likely did not practice at all for 2 weeks between Bama and LSU. If anything, he only got limited individual drills and some conditioning work. Definitely not full speed reps.

- KT likely practiced in a very limited capacity last week. Best case scenario is that he split reps 50/50 with Puckett, but I doubt it was even that much.

So now, there are sooooooo many questions:

1) Why in the absolute 17 was KT still in the game against Bama when we were down 42-17 late in the 3rd, while already known to have been nursing a turf toe injury? And furthermore, why put him even further at risk with a very questionable 2-point conversion attempt after scoring?

2) Moving over to the OU game, you know that in the past 3 weeks, you have your starting QB - who relies very heavily on his mobility - now immobile. You know he’s already aggravated the injury once. You also know he’s barely practiced at all in 3 weeks. You also know you’re about to go up against maybe the best defensive front 7 in the SEC. With all the things above known, why the 17 is he playing?

The rest is history. KT got injured against Mizzou. Our idiotic staff found a way to get him to reaggravate a very delicate injury TWICE in 3 games. He’s now going to miss the rest of the season, meaning 2 likely wins now suddenly look like tossups, and 3 winnable games are now going to be guaranteed blowout losses.

Just like anything else that has required any level of critical thinking in the past 3 years, Lebby has royally 17ed it up.
I'm not a Lebby defender, but Jesus Christ this is a stretch. KT never "made the injury worse by playing." From day one it was the type that would eventually require surgery. It was KT's decision to try to tough it out and have surgery after the season. As you saw in the Bama game he was not going to be able to run because he has to be in a shoe that does not allow his toes to flex. He wanted to give it a go, and everyone on this site would have been up Lebby's butt if he hadn't let him try. He did not make anything worse, just wasn't able to fight through it like he had hoped.
 

Howiefeltersnstch

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You know, slightly unrelated but Steve says the issue with Swann is that his leg got stepped on in spring ball and held him out of practices and learning the offense. Buuut then again in fall practice...lol. Same thing. Leg stepped on. Just now getting better supposedly. Wtf ?? Green jersey ? Hard to believe
 

RocketDawg

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There was, or at least Lebby perceived, a lot of fan pressure for KT to return. He knew Puckett wasn't doing all that well, and apparently the other two backups were even worse. So he caved.

That's the way I see it.
 

Perd Hapley

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Depending on your definition of aggravated, it is absolutely debatable. Did it hurt him when he tried to run fast? Yes. Did it make the injury worse? No.
My definition of “aggravated” is Lebby’s definition. As in “Jeff Lebby confirms in postgame that Kamario Taylor aggravated foot injury against Oklahoma”, which is, verbatim, what was posted as linked content by @SixPackSpeak after the game was over.
 

POTUS

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Legitimate criticism: We should have a better back up. Lebby should have signed one.

illegitimate criticism: Lebby got K1 hurt or re-injured.

This injury has pissed in all our Cheerios and now we’re all just mad and want to blame someone. Lebby is an easy, and in many ways deserved, target. But it’s crazy to think a coach is going to be able to have the foresight to hold out his best player until just the right time. That’s just unrealistic.
 

Howiefeltersnstch

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Its not Lebbys fault he got hurt. On another side story I just read a Facebook post saying that our #2 QB tells people he doesn't even want to play football and not a State fan. I commented and asked who he was referring to, Billy or Swann. Anybody heard any crap about that ?
 
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Dawgzilla2

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I'll give Lebby the benefit of the doubt here. None of us know what KT's actually medical condition is, or what advice the doctors gave, how he performed in practice, or what the plans were as far as playing him and deciding when to pull him. I'm sure KT wanted to try.

HOWEVER, I am in favor of researching this whole matter so that Lebby can be fired for cause and lose his buyout. Absolute failure to protect an athlete's well being. Put someone on this immediately.
 

Bulldog Bruce

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I asked in a post on September 21, which was after the South Carolina game about a KT injury which seemed obvious to me at that time. He only had 8 rushes in that game after having 13 against Minnesota. People speculated about a hamstring. I say that's where he got hurt. He was not able to run, like he can, after that game.
 

L4Dawg

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I'm not a Lebby defender, but Jesus Christ this is a stretch. KT never "made the injury worse by playing." From day one it was the type that would eventually require surgery. It was KT's decision to try to tough it out and have surgery after the season. As you saw in the Bama game he was not going to be able to run because he has to be in a shoe that does not allow his toes to flex. He wanted to give it a go, and everyone on this site would have been up Lebby's butt if he hadn't let him try. He did not make anything worse, just wasn't able to fight through it like he had hoped.
This. That is the nature of turf toe. It wasn't going go away on its own before the season was over.
 
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johnson86-1

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I'm not a Lebby defender, but Jesus Christ this is a stretch. KT never "made the injury worse by playing." From day one it was the type that would eventually require surgery. It was KT's decision to try to tough it out and have surgery after the season. As you saw in the Bama game he was not going to be able to run because he has to be in a shoe that does not allow his toes to flex. He wanted to give it a go, and everyone on this site would have been up Lebby's butt if he hadn't let him try. He did not make anything worse, just wasn't able to fight through it like he had hoped.
I mean, he could have made it worse by playing. I don't think we know. But agreed on this being a stretch. People would have crucified Lebby if he held him out for four games and KT was still limited coming back. I am guessing the decision to try to play was made by the doctors and KT and his family. If there was a limited chance of him really getting it healthy this year, then taking a shot at playing on it was probably a decent idea.

I think the one question Lebby has to account for that's not just second guessing is you know KT is hurt during Bama. Once we were down, it was time to get KT out. I don't think that's an unfair criticism.
 
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Perd Hapley

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Legitimate criticism: We should have a better back up. Lebby should have signed one.
Or his offense should be better suited to a freshmen backup, even if skill level is lower.

Or he should have recruited better OL to prevent injury risk to the starter.

Or all of the above.

illegitimate criticism: Lebby got K1 hurt or re-injured.

He aggravated an existing injury twice in 3 games. Once was while we were down 3 scores at the end of the 3rd quarter against a Top 10 team. The other was in the 1st quarter of a game he started after not playing at all the previous week. Lebby made the choice to have him out there both times. None of this is debatable. “Got him hurt” isn’t really correct phrasing. He just did a piss poor job of managing a very delicate injury, for shortsighted reasons. Which isn’t surprising, because he’s made dozens of other terrible short-sighted decisions for 3 years. He has shown zero ability to apply critical thinking at all, for 3 years.

This injury has pissed in all our Cheerios and now we’re all just mad and want to blame someone. Lebby is an easy, and in many ways deserved, target. But it’s crazy to think a coach is going to be able to have the foresight to hold out his best player until just the right time. That’s just unrealistic.
BS. I’m old enough to remember Dan Mullen holding out a Pro Bowl QB multiple games, all the way until 10 minutes to go in the 4th quarter of the 2013 Egg Bowl. He knew whatever 100% reps he got from Dak would be limited, so he hoped he didn’t need them, but if he did, he wanted to make them count. Plenty of other coaches have figured it out.
 
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