The Official Unbiased Top 10 end of regular season

[CCL65]

And teams that rank in the top 10 nationally on a consistent basis.

Including the year Flyer blanked them 35-0? They won 8A then.

I think the point was that if LA had taken ESL’s place and played those same teams with ESL either non existent or playing in another class, then they would have had the same success

 

[DirtySixThirty]

I think the point was that if LA had taken ESL’s place and played those same teams with ESL either non existent or playing in another class, then they would have had the same success

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Anon232446]

Had Loyola played in 6A, they would've won every year without any trouble.

Easy to say that when there is no way to prove it. Had games never been played the last 6 years, just looking at the brackets most would agree that ESL was going to win 6A every year. However, they haven't because upsets happen. So yes, LA would've likely been favored (minus ESL) in 6A for most years in the last 6 years (Looking at comparative results, I think Fenwick and Naz would've been slight favorites last year). As we know the favorite doesn't always win. Seems like you are holding ESL to a higher standard (having to win every year) than other programs. By all metrics ESL is an elite program and any talk to the contrary is just rage bait.

 

[DirtySixThirty]

Easy to say that when there is no way to prove it. Had games never been played the last 6 years, just looking at the brackets most would agree that ESL was going to win 6A every year. However, they haven't because upsets happen. So yes, LA would've likely been favored (minus ESL) in 6A for most years in the last 6 years (Looking at comparative results, I think Fenwick and Naz would've been slight favorites last year). As we know the favorite doesn't always win. Seems like you are holding ESL to a higher standard (having to win every year) than other programs. By all metrics ESL is an elite program and any talk to the contrary is just rage bait.

Not rage bait. Just a difference of opinion.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Not rage bait. Just a difference of opinion.

Differnce of opinion is you have ESL number 3. That was cool and wouldn’t have gotten a response. The extra stuff about needing to prove themselves is where things went left

 

[DirtySixThirty]

Differnce of opinion is you have ESL number 3. That was cool and wouldn’t have gotten a response. The extra stuff about needing to prove themselves is where things went left

So far, I haven't heard a good explanation of why such an elite program can't consistently win the state's third largest playoff class. Don't you think it's a fair question?

 

[Connorstallions]

Had Loyola played in 6A, they would've won every year without any trouble.

If you stopped glazing ICCP you would know that in 2024 ESL beat Loyola 34-7

 

[4Afan]

So far, I haven't heard a good explanation of why such an elite program can't consistently win the state's third largest playoff class. Don't you think it's a fair question?

Short answer is upsets happen.

JCA and MC have more state titles than any other team but they don't win every year. You also have to remember they're 5A school based on enrollment and are basically the only team in the state to voluntarily play up a class, two classes this year, on an annual basis.

You mentioned Loyola and BR as being elite but Loyola is only 6-5 in title games and BR just won their first championship so I guess my question to you is what makes a program elite?

 

[DirtySixThirty]

Short answer is upsets happen.

JCA and MC have more state titles than any other team but they don't win every year. You also have to remember they're 5A school based on enrollment and are basically the only team in the state to voluntarily play up a class, two classes this year, on an annual basis.

You mentioned Loyola and BR as being elite but Loyola is only 6-5 in title games and BR just won their first championship so I guess my question to you is what makes a program elite?

I mentioned Loyola and Mount Carmel (not Brother Rice) because, over the last several years, they've consistently won titles in the state's two largest classes. I'm firmly convinced that, if either of them or Lincoln-Way East replaced East St. Louis in class 6, they'd win every year.

 

[4Afan]

I mentioned Loyola and Mount Carmel (not Brother Rice) because, over the last several years, they've consistently won titles in the state's two largest classes. I'm firmly convinced that, if either of them or Lincoln-Way East replaced East St. Louis in class 6, they'd win every year.

Lol of course they would, they're 8A schools. If Montini, a 4A school, dropped down to 2A they'd destroy everyone too. You can't compare those schools based on what they'd do if they were to drop down 2 classes. Also, in one of the years Loyola won an 8A title ESL embarrassed them in the regular season.

Loyola has 3 titles over the last 6 years, so does ESL, but Loyola hasn't been consistent enough to make 6 straight title games like ESL and Loyola was 4-5 last year, so not quite as consistent as you make them out to be.

 

[LHSTigers94]

I mentioned Loyola and Mount Carmel (not Brother Rice) because, over the last several years, they've consistently won titles in the state's two largest classes. I'm firmly convinced that, if either of them or Lincoln-Way East replaced East St. Louis in class 6, they'd win every year.

Yet they lose to ESL.

I have a ton of respect for MC and LA program and I will highlight the fact that they play ESL. At the end of the day you can only name two or three programs in front of ESL. Using that fact, you are saying they are elite. I’m sure they appreciate your compliment.

 

[80sRambler]

Can we drop Loyola from this nonsense

 

[LHSTigers94]

Can we drop Loyola from this nonsense

Funny I was just thinking to stop responding because there is no reason to keep dragging LA or MC into his BS discussion. Elite teams respect elite teams. ESL will keep working to get better.

 

[80sRambler]

I mentioned Loyola and Mount Carmel (not Brother Rice) because, over the last several years, they've consistently won titles in the state's two largest classes. I'm firmly convinced that, if either of them or Lincoln-Way East replaced East St. Louis in class 6, they'd win every year.

Isn’t this the wrong question? The right question is would ESL be elite if in the same playoff class as LWE, MC, Loyola year in, year out. The answer has to be a resounding yes. It would be good fun too!

 

[CCL65]

I mentioned Loyola and Mount Carmel (not Brother Rice) because, over the last several years, they've consistently won titles in the state's two largest classes. I'm firmly convinced that, if either of them or Lincoln-Way East replaced East St. Louis in class 6, they'd win every year.

And that’s why ESL has voluntarily moved up two classes. If they win 7A they will try for 8A even knowing it will be disallowed.

 

[80sRambler]

BTW, that 2021 Cary-Grove team was one hell of a high school football team. They played a near perfect game in the finals.

 

[ODERTY1]

@DirtySixThirty you don't like ESL. And that's fine. But either you trolling or really uneducated on this subject .

 

[ODERTY1]

I think the point was that if LA had taken ESL’s place and played those same teams with ESL either non existent or playing in another class, then they would have had the same success

But this makes ESL "elite" based what yall both saying

 

[Cross Bones]

MaxPerps:

1. LWE
2. Rice
3. ESL
4. MC
5. Loyola
6. IC
7. Iggy
8. Geneva
9. H-F
10. Fenwick
11. Batavia
12. PC
13. WWS
14. Rita
15. GBW
16. Naz
17. Sandburg
18. Morris
19. Marist
20. SF
21. JCA
22. LWC
23. Oswego
24. DGN
25. Byron

Yikes. And exactly why using these algorithms to seed the playoffs would be an actual disaster.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

MaxPerps:

1. LWE
2. Rice
3. ESL
4. MC
5. Loyola
6. IC
7. Iggy
8. Geneva
9. H-F
10. Fenwick
11. Batavia
12. PC
13. WWS
14. Rita
15. GBW
16. Naz
17. Sandburg
18. Morris
19. Marist
20. SF
21. JCA
22. LWC
23. Oswego
24. DGN
25. Byron

Yikes. And exactly why using these algorithms to seed the playoffs would be an actual disaster.

They do not like Hersey.
I would need to see the class breakdown rankings 1-48 to have a strong opinion.

 

[Still Missing34]

They do not like Hersey.
I would need to see the class breakdown rankings 1-48 to have a strong opinion.

They love Batavia and HF - not so much for Oswego and Bolingbrook

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Massey top 25
LWE
MC
ESL
LA
BR
Hersey
Morris
Geneva
IC
DGN
Huntley
Iggy
Batavia
Rita
Oswego
PC
MS
Prospect
Fenwick
H-F
GW
Kankakee
Lyons
WWS
Montini

 

[Cross Bones]

Massey top 25
LWE
MC
ESL
LA
BR
Hersey
Morris
Geneva
IC
DGN
Huntley
Iggy
Batavia
Rita
Oswego
PC
MS
Prospect
Fenwick
H-F
GW
Kankakee
Lyons
WWS
Montini

Equally as bad as MaxPerps. Maybe worse.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Equally as bad as MaxPerps. Maybe worse.

I posted for comparision. Again, I would need to see the breakdown of the 1-48 in each class for these two models.

 

[Cross Bones]

I posted for comparision. Again, I would need to see the breakdown of the 1-48 in each class for these two models.

I think theyve shown enough, but for discussion sake:

MaxPerps
1. LWE
2. MC
3. Loyola
4. Iggy
5. HF
6. Sandburg
7. Marist
8. Oswego
9. Lyons
10. Lockport
11. NN
12. Barrington
13. York
14. Brook
15. HC
16. MS
17. NT
18. NC
19. OPRF
20. Huntley
21. Fremd
22. GBS
23. NV
24. LP
25. OFallon
26. Warren
27. Lane
28. DGS
29. Conant
30. Minooka
31. WA
32. OE
33. SE
34. Perspectives
35. Stevie
36. WV
37. Evanston
38. VS
39. MV
40. WY
41. JW
42. Taft
43. Curie
44. DC
45. Leyden
46. Bloom
47. Aurora E
48. Joliet C

What is even more alarming than the egregious ranking is the volatile movement from the prior week. We have teams moving 27, 21, 20, 19,18, 18... hell NN moved up 12 spots for getting blown out by ESL.

Claude made the tourney for me

Round 1 (16 games, seeds 17-48)
NT (17) vs Joliet C (48)
NC (18) vs Aurora E (47)
OPRF (19) vs Bloom (46)
Huntley (20) vs Leyden (45)
Fremd (21) vs DC (44)
GBS (22) vs Curie (43)
NV (23) vs Taft (42)
LP (24) vs JW (41)
OFallon (25) vs WY (40)
Warren (26) vs MV (39)
Lane (27) vs VS (38)
DGS (28) vs Evanston (37)
Conant (29) vs WV (36)
Minooka (30) vs Stevie (35)
WA (31) vs Perspectives (34)
OE (32) vs SE (33)

Round 2 (bye teams meet Round 1 winners)
Top half, Region A
LWE (1) vs winner of OE/SE
MS (16) vs winner of NT/Joliet C
Oswego (8) vs winner of OFallon/WY
Lyons (9) vs winner of LP/JW

Top half, Region B
Iggy (4) vs winner of Conant/WV
York (13) vs winner of Huntley/Leyden
HF (5) vs winner of DGS/Evanston
Barrington (12) vs winner of Fremd/DC

Bottom half, Region C
MC (2) vs winner of WA/Perspectives
HC (15) vs winner of NC/Aurora E
Marist (7) vs winner of Warren/MV
Lockport (10) vs winner of NV/Taft

Bottom half, Region D
Loyola (3) vs winner of Minooka/Stevie
Brook (14) vs winner of OPRF/Bloom
Sandburg (6) vs winner of Lane/VS
NN (11) vs winner of GBS/Curie

Later rounds
Round 3 (Sweet 16): the 1st and 2nd game of each region meet, and the 3rd and 4th meet.
Round 4: the two winners in each region meet, which decides the four region champions.
Final Four: Region A vs Region B in the top half, and Region C vs Region D in the bottom half.
The winners of those two games play for the championship.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Lockport 10...ooof.

 

[PowerI66]

They love Batavia and HF - not so much for Oswego and Bolingbrook

I've watched Batavia more than most and am a supporter. However, ranking them that high is a head-scratcher due to their defense

 

[Cross Bones]

Massey top 25
LWE
MC
ESL
LA
BR
Hersey
Morris
Geneva
IC
DGN
Huntley
Iggy
Batavia
Rita
Oswego
PC
MS
Prospect
Fenwick
H-F
GW
Kankakee
Lyons
WWS
Montini

And now I see that Massey has us losing to Minooka 32-14. Yeah, Im 100% against algorithms being used in any fashion for anything official.

 

[nonA91745]

Easy to say that when there is no way to prove it. Had games never been played the last 6 years, just looking at the brackets most would agree that ESL was going to win 6A every year. However, they haven't because upsets happen. So yes, LA would've likely been favored (minus ESL) in 6A for most years in the last 6 years (Looking at comparative results, I think Fenwick and Naz would've been slight favorites last year). As we know the favorite doesn't always win. Seems like you are holding ESL to a higher standard (having to win every year) than other programs. By all metrics ESL is an elite program and any talk to the contrary is just rage bait.

With massive respect to Cary Groves wrestling/football team(s) an elite football program they are not. 2-0 in finals against ESL. Elite *team* beating the conventional all star group of individual. See also Fenwick last yr. Elite kids. Not elite program.

Exhibit A re asterisk that should be put on most wins in IHSA history. Not a fair fight in a great many of their contests.

 

[ODERTY1]

SMH you don't know what you are talking about. Go do some research

 

[crusader_of_90]

Let us consider other tracked data for the past 120 years.

Over the last 120+ years, the U.S. stock market (tracked by major benchmarks like the Dow Jones Industrial Average created in 1896) has trended upward despite severe short-term shocks. Markets have cratered and rebounded after major crises—including World Wars, the 1929 Great Depression, the 1970s stagflation/oil shocks, the 2008 financial crisis, and 21st-century bear markets.

The SWC suckage is relatively recent in the overall picture and pre-1974, which is the majority of the time ESL has played ball, the Bi-State Conference was one of the best in the nation. Look beyond your nose.

 

[nonA91745]

Gents,

go back 10 yrs but that’s being too generous. Just the last five.

Earning the elite label is not a God given right. Past five yrs not elite no way no how. Should have boat raced Carey and Fenwick. Didn’t.

6a for a team that loaded with p4 superstars annually. Laughable. Not on the kids. Coaching.

 

[ODERTY1]

Gents,

go back 10 yrs but that’s being too generous. Just the last five.

Earning the elite label is not a God given right. Past five yrs not elite no way no how. Should have boat raced Carey and Fenwick. Didn’t.

6a for a team that loaded with p4 superstars annually. Laughable. Not on the kids. Coaching.

So once again who are the elite programs in the state and or in the states history?

 

[nonA91745]

Let me back up. I have zero interest in railing on ESL one of maybe 2-3 teams that could consistently play top talent across the country and win or at least make a respectable showing.

I’ve spent time down in ESL and I’ve seen first hand the immense challenges that community faces daily. It’s surreal tbh and nothing short of tragic. Honestly I’m rooting for them. Love the name, love the unis, love the flair and couldn’t be more impressed with most of the talent.

But I do think the criticism is fair. In my eyes they should be far more like Bishop Gorman or Aquinas or insert your perennial natl top 10 program here. Because of their talent. ESL is a tragic factory of UNREAL talent..athletic and otherwise and a simple google search makes that beyond clear.

It’s fair to say they’ll always struggle to get the resources those programs get but I also think it’s fair as a program to say they under perform to their immense talent way too consistently.

Below is something I pulled from Ai. Don’t have the slightest clue if A. This is correct (their semi final opponents) and or B. If these teams were in fact powerhouses of their own or (on face value to *me* who is ignorant here) were they as mid as its seeming to me by both results and programs - not one of which *I think* could not be called remotely elite as a program within this time frame but perhaps their teams that year were. And if that program was elite around that time please forgive my ignorance.

Fair or no?

 

[jha618]

Let me back up. I have zero interest in railing on ESL one of maybe 2-3 teams that could consistently play top talent across the country and win or at least make a respectable showing.

I’ve spent time down in ESL and I’ve seen first hand the immense challenges that community faces daily. It’s surreal tbh and nothing short of tragic. Honestly I’m rooting for them. Love the name, love the unis, love the flair and couldn’t be more impressed with most of the talent.

But I do think the criticism is fair. In my eyes they should be far more like Bishop Gorman or Aquinas or insert your perennial natl top 10 program here. Because of their talent. ESL is a tragic factory of UNREAL talent..athletic and otherwise and a simple google search makes that beyond clear.

It’s fair to say they’ll always struggle to get the resources those programs get but I also think it’s fair as a program to say they under perform to their immense talent way too consistently.

Below is something I pulled from Ai. Don’t have the slightest clue if A. This is correct (their semi final opponents) and or B. If these teams were in fact powerhouses of their own or (on face value to *me* who is ignorant here) were they as mid as its seeming to me by both results and programs - not one of which *I think* could not be called remotely elite as a program within this time frame but perhaps their teams that year were. And if that program was elite around that time please forgive my ignorance.

Fair or no?

View attachment 1493762

Instead of saying esl isnt elite, give us your criteria for an elite program and tell us who in illinois fits that criteria.

 

[nonA91745]

Let me back up. I have zero interest in railing on ESL one of maybe 2-3 teams that could consistently play top talent across the country and win or at least make a respectable showing.

I’ve spent time down in ESL and I’ve seen first hand the immense challenges that community faces daily. It’s surreal tbh and nothing short of tragic. Honestly I’m rooting for them. Love the name, love the unis, love the flair and couldn’t be more impressed with most of the talent.

But I do think the criticism is fair. In my eyes they should be far more like Bishop Gorman or Aquinas or insert your perennial natl top 10 program here. Because of their talent. ESL is a tragic factory of UNREAL talent..athletic and otherwise and a simple google search makes that beyond clear.

It’s fair to say they’ll always struggle to get the resources those programs get but I also think it’s fair as a program to say they under perform to their immense talent way too consistently.

Below is something I pulled from Ai. Don’t have the slightest clue if A. This is correct (their semi final opponents) and or B. If these teams were in fact powerhouses of their own or (on face value to *me* who is ignorant here) were they as mid as its seeming to me by both results and programs - not one of which *I think* could not be called remotely elite as a program within this time frame but perhaps their teams that year were. And if that program was elite around that time please forgive my ignorance.

Fair or no?

View attachment 1493762

Wait just did this for Loyola and Mt Carmel.

I stand down from my semi final argument. Not a good one! . Both LA and MC semifinals where they moved on were against impressive teams im sure but probably not elite programs idk.

to your point @nonA91745 who is elite is a good question. For me MC and LA (Holocek yrs unsure prior to him) are the only two that are consistently deserving of that label

 

[nonA91745]

Instead of saying esl isnt elite, give us your criteria for an elite program and tell us who in illinois fits that criteria.

It’s a fair point. Programs that play insane schedules and consistently win.

everyone dogging on LA for that win against IC

that was the epitome of ELITE. Up against *ELITE* talent that torched you for a half. Shut them down in the second. And do that kinda thing year in year out. Just as MC does.

 

[nonA91745]

I think it’s fair to say being elite goes hand in hand with being remarkably consistent. Which is insanely difficult.

 

[crusader_of_90]

I think this guy is having a conversation with himself.

 

[ODERTY1]

ESL is one of the most consistently successful program in the history of the state. We in the first championships in state history and play in the championship last year..... consistently!