Def substitution rule

[94LionsFan]

Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but I don’t understand why the USC defense was able to have players subbing in right up to the play clock running out and we’re on the hook for a delay of game penalty. I get that they should be able to sub if we do, but it seemed like they had more than enough time to do so and were abusing the rule. Can someone explain?

 

[Erial_Lion]

They were abusing the rule. Refs shouldn't have allowed them that much time...the first one was borderline, the second one was blatant.

 

[KingLando]

Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but I don’t understand why the USC defense was able to have players subbing in right up to the play clock running out and we’re on the hook for a delay of game penalty. I get that they should be able to sub if we do, but it seemed like they had more than enough time to do so and were abusing the rule. Can someone explain?

It will likely be addressed in the off-season but that's how it's been called. Can't make late substitutions. The second one was pushing it but the first one was on us

 

[Bison13]

PSU subbed a few seconds later than they should have but the usc guys were almost walking out. As erial mentioned it should have been called at minimum on the second TO

 

[94LionsFan]

It will likely be addressed in the off-season but that's how it's been called. Can't make late substitutions. The second one was pushing it but the first one was on us

What is a late substitution? I just tried googling it and all I found was some guy on Reddit saying it’s at the ref’s discretion and 15 seconds left on the play clock is the cutoff. There should be a concrete definition for late substitution, shouldn’t there?

 

[CDLionFL]

The offense puts themselves in peril with this if they have the wrong personnel and they decide to run someone out there with 15-20 on the play clock. Then the C comes running in to stop the QB from calling for the snap and the defense can take their sweet time getting off the field (I think 10 seconds is the allowable time to sub). If you can't get your personnel figured out on offense, why should the defense suffer for your ineptitude?

 

[KingLando]

What is a late substitution? I just tried googling it and all I found was some guy on Reddit saying it’s at the ref’s discretion and 15 seconds left on the play clock is the cutoff. There should be a concrete definition for late substitution, shouldn’t there?

Which is why I think it will be addressed this offseason
But that's on the coaching staff would even making it close

 

[Metal Mike]

Another thing I did not understand was the PSU penalty for "delay of game" that gave USC a first down and allowed them to run out the clock. The replay showed PSU players moving around but I thought defensive players could move but not move toward the offensive line. Did they move toward the offensive and I missed it or what? Thanks

 

[Erial_Lion]

Another thing I did not understand was the PSU penalty for "delay of game" that gave USC a first down and allowed them to run out the clock. The replay showed PSU players moving around but I thought defensive players could move but not move toward the offensive line. Did they move toward the offensive and I missed it or what? Thanks

That one was the right call. Players on the defensive line can't make sudden movements to try and draw the offense to flinch. If it was one player made a sudden shift, you've got a better chance of getting away with it...but all three guys quickly shifting like that should draw a penalty on the D.

 

[bbrown]

Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but I don’t understand why the USC defense was able to have players subbing in right up to the play clock running out and we’re on the hook for a delay of game penalty. I get that they should be able to sub if we do, but it seemed like they had more than enough time to do so and were abusing the rule. Can someone explain?

They crossed the line on one of them and were very close on others. They should have been flagged.

 

[bbrown]

Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but I don’t understand why the USC defense was able to have players subbing in right up to the play clock running out and we’re on the hook for a delay of game penalty. I get that they should be able to sub if we do, but it seemed like they had more than enough time to do so and were abusing the rule. Can someone explain?

Another issue that would have given them first downs is just snap the ball when they jump off sides. USC did that at least 3x.

 

[JoePaMajorCFBrecord409Ws]

The offense puts themselves in peril with this if they have the wrong personnel and they decide to run someone out there with 15-20 on the play clock. Then the C comes running in to stop the QB from calling for the snap and the defense can take their sweet time getting off the field (I think 10 seconds is the allowable time to sub). If you can't get your personnel figured out on offense, why should the defense suffer for your ineptitude?

Nope, the OP is correct the rule states that the defensive substitutes are supposed to exit and enter the field in an expeditious manner (I believe the exact wording is "at an athletic pace" - i.e., running, not walking slowly). The Rulebook says the Defense has an opportunity to substitute after the Offense substitutes, but that is not what is being asked about here. The Rulebook ALSO states the pace that those substitutions should enter and exit the field at. The USC substitutions were both walking on and off the field - in fact, the substitute walking into the field of play didn't even start walking onto the field of play until the player leaving the field of play had slowly walked all the way to the sideline. That is against the Rules and the Official should have stepped away allowing PSU to snap the ball causing a penalty (or to few players) to USC as USC was abusing the substitution protocol specified in the Rulebook.

 

[JoePaMajorCFBrecord409Ws]

Nope, the OP is correct the rule states that the defensive substitutes are supposed to exit and enter the field in an expeditious manner (I believe the exact wording is "at an athletic pace" - i.e., running, not walking slowly). The Rulebook says the Defense has an opportunity to substitute after the Offense substitutes, but that is not what is being asked about here. The Rulebook ALSO states the pace that those substitutions should enter and exit the field at. The USC substitutions were both walking on and off the field - in fact, the substitute walking into the field of play didn't even start walking onto the field of play until the player leaving the field of play had slowly walked all the way to the sideline. That is against the Rules and the Official should have stepped away allowing PSU to snap the ball causing a penalty (or to few players) to USC as USC was abusing the substitution protocol specified in the Rulebook.

In the "Game Thread", this topic is also being discussed. I'm incorrect that the Official can allow the ball to be snapped while either team is still substituting. But the Rulebook clearly states that the Defense is to be called for Delay of Game if the reason the ball is not snapped when the Play Clock expires results from the Defensive substitutions not substituting in a timely manner while leaving and entering the field.

 

[Bvillebaron]

They were abusing the rule. Refs shouldn't have allowed them that much time...the first one was borderline, the second one was blatant.

Stop the nonsense and excuse making, the problem was Penn State’s LATE substitution of players on offense which meant that USC could substitute as the clock ran down. Every WELL COACHED team tells its players to take their time getting off the field.

 

[Bvillebaron]

Nope, the OP is correct the rule states that the defensive substitutes are supposed to exit and enter the field in an expeditious manner (I believe the exact wording is "at an athletic pace" - i.e., running, not walking slowly). The Rulebook says the Defense has an opportunity to substitute after the Offense substitutes, but that is not what is being asked about here. The Rulebook ALSO states the pace that those substitutions should enter and exit the field at. The USC substitutions were both walking on and off the field - in fact, the substitute walking into the field of play didn't even start walking onto the field of play until the player leaving the field of play had slowly walked all the way to the sideline. That is against the Rules and the Official should have stepped away allowing PSU to snap the ball causing a penalty (or to few players) to USC as USC was abusing the substitution protocol specified in the Rulebook.

See my other post. Stop the excuse making for poor coaching.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Stop the nonsense and excuse making, the problem was Penn State’s LATE substitution of players on offense which meant that USC could substitute as the clock ran down. Every WELL COACHED team tells its players to take their time getting off the field.

It's not "nonsense and excuse making", it's the truth. On the second one, PSU substituted early enough (18-19 seconds on the play clock) that USC had time to make their substitution and for us to get the snap off. The player walking onto the field, tapping another player, and that player slowly coming off should have been a delay of game on the defense. Teams try to toe the line with taking their time on substitutions, but that was probably the most blatant example that I've seen of it in years. Every team "takes their time"...no teams have guys walk, that guy doesn't move until he's tapped, etc...that should have been a penalty.

 

[kgilbert78]

See my other post. Stop the excuse making for poor coaching.

It can be both poor coaching and poor officiating. And poor sportsmanship too.