Saturday showed why RuNdAbAwL doesn't work against good teams........

[OG Goat Holder]

Despite two turnovers, what was it that allowed us to stay in the game? At least until the defense wore out. Answer - pass game.

What could we not do, no matter what the name of the tailback was? Answer - RuNdAbAwL.

The pass sets up the run against the good teams, not the other way around. Coaches at all levels of football keep ignoring this at their own peril. I give Lebby credit for establishing the pass game, both with QB and WRs. And hint - we were good at this last year as well. But he also continues to just push the run over and over and over, and now it's gotten Fluff hurt. He just kept pounding and pounding against Mizzou and it wasn't necessary.

When are folks gonna learn? I mean as fans I guess it don't matter, we can continue to be stupid, but I really don't see why so many coaches don't see this simple fact. Run/pass balance is fake news.

So unless we think we're gonna go out and buy Georgia/Alabama level players, we better figure this out.

 

[57stratdawg]

2019 John Cohen agrees

 

[Bulldawg77]

You are an idiot and show both.. your lack of football knowledge and your lack of understanding we were playing with injuries. Did it ever occur to you that maybe we just ran into a better team??? Just STFU.
One bad loss. We are 4-1 … 4 and 17 &1. Ranked 17th. Beat Minn Mizz and South Carolina. Your a$$ would have crawled through glass if I told you that this the record in preseason. We have very winnable games left as well.
How can you be a fan when you don’t attend games. Lie about attending games Constantly b!tch about the program and look for excuses to not give.

 

[Maroon13]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

I guess if you're content to live at 6-6 with a few bad years and an occasional up year (where you still can't beat the good teams). I want to contend for the playoff once in a while.

 

[mcdawg22]

Yes. We all remember the massive success we had against Alabama when we scored, (checks notes) an average of 3 points a game running the air raid.

 

[Choctaw Dawg]

Fluff gets the amount of carries he gets because Kolin Wilson and Xavier Gayten are not all that great. Lebby has usually been a RB by committee guy and those rotations are not happening this year when Fluff is able to play a full game.

Kolin Wilson is 5'9" 190 lbs, He is Brandon Holloway 2.0. He is an open space back not a between the tackles running back. I don't really know what Gayten is at this point because it just hasn't come together for him yet and at this point it might not.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Yes. We all remember the massive success we had against Alabama when we scored, (checks notes) an average of 3 points a game running the air raid.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Alabama-179 yards rushing
MSU- 18
Even for goat, this game was a terrible example for his point

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Fluff gets the amount of carries he gets because Kolin Wilson and Xavier Gayten are not all that great. Lebby has usually been a RB by committee guy and those rotations are not happening this year when Fluff is able to play a full game.

Kolin Wilson is 5'9" 190 lbs, He is Brandon Holloway 2.0. He is an open space back not a between the tackles running back. I don't really know what Gayten is at this point because it just hasn't come together for him yet and at this point it might not.

The point is that no running back should be getting that many carries

Should be calling more pass plays

 

[Dawgzilla2]

If we were capable of running the ball against Bama Saturday, you might have a point. We couldn't get past the line of scrimmage. The people who want us to run the ball also want us to have the OL and RBs who are capable of running the ball.

Im not sure if anyone wants us to keep trying to run the ball when it is clearly futile.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

If we were capable of running the ball against Bama Saturday, you might have a point. We couldn't get past the line of scrimmage. The people who want us to run the ball also want us to have the OL and RBs who are capable of running the ball.

Huh? If we were capable of running the ball, we should do it.

Im not sure if anyone wants us to keep trying to run the ball when it is clearly futile.

Well that's currently where we find ourselves against the top teams.

The only question is how to bridge that gap.......develop the pass game or develop the run game. Which is easiest to do?

 

[22yardpunt]

The run can setup the pass if you can effectively run it on anyone. If you are running it down their throat then the D will obviously have to commit resources to slowing it down. Likewise, the pass can setup the run if you show that you can sling it effectively.

For us, to be really effective on offense, we need KT to be a run threat as well. In that scenario, I don’t think our offense can be stopped. KT was very limited past Saturday and we were missing Fluff, and it showed in how Bama schemed against us.

 

[22yardpunt]

That would have been a different game this past weekend if we were healthy on the offense side of the ball. If KY can’t run it then the D doesn’t have to spy him or even worry about it, allowing the defense to get more exotic with its blitz packages if they know he won’t tuck and run. Otherwise they are playing with fire if they blitz and KT can’t run take advantage of running lanes.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The run can setup the pass if you can effectively run it on anyone. If you are running it down their throat then the D will obviously have to commit resources to slowing it down. Likewise, the pass can setup the run if you show that you can sling it effectively

If you can effectively run the ball on anyone, your problem is solved. You will likely win every game you play. But easier said than done.

For us, to be really effective on offense, we need KT to be a run threat as well. In that scenario, I don’t think our offense can be stopped. KT was very limited past Saturday and we were missing Fluff, and it showed in how Bama schemed against us.

That would help, it always does to have another runner. But if you can't also throw effectively, that eventually gets shut down too (Nick Fitz is a good example). Lucky for us, we do have a guy that can throw it effectively, which again, was the only reason we were in that game Saturday until the D just broke.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

We scored more points in the first half against Bama on Saturday than we scored against Bama in the entire Leach era combined.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

We scored more points in the first half against Bama on Saturday than we scored against Bama in the entire Leach era combined.

And we did it throwing the ball, not running it. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

I'm sure, had we not had the 2 TOs, we'd have stayed with them.....and eventually, the pass game would open up the run a little. Not sure we win but we'd have had a fighting chance

 

[CochiseCowbell]

And we did it throwing the ball, not running it. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

I'm sure, had we not had the 2 TOs, we'd have stayed with them.....and eventually, the pass game would open up the run a little. Not sure we win but we'd have had a fighting chance

Those 2 TO's killed us more than anything and the out of bounds throw to Evans. Not necessarily because they happened, but more importantly WHEN they happened.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

In answering another thread, I asked AI to show our wins vs. final ranked top 12 teams, essentially trying to judge our victories over potential playoff caliber teams. I got this:

Season Date Mississippi State result Opponent’s final AP rank Opponent record
1992 Oct. 1, 1992 Mississippi State 30, Florida 6 No. 10 9–4
1996 Nov. 16, 1996 Mississippi State 17, Alabama 16 No. 11 10–3
1997 Nov. 1, 1997 Mississippi State 20, Auburn 0 No. 11 10–3
2000 Sept. 30, 2000 Mississippi State 47, Florida 35 No. 10 10–3

And then of course if you keep going back you get Bama 1980, but a lot of this is a little too long ago to be considered relevant. But you do have a point about what King Jackie did.

So the key to me, is how do you sort of combine what we did back then and what works now? But I have to remember that none of what we've done has ever lead to sustained success.

ETA: I then asked the ones where we played within a TD:

Year Opponent Final AP rank Result Margin
1991 Alabama No. 5 Alabama 13, MSU 7 6
1994 Alabama No. 5 Alabama 29, MSU 25 4
2010 Arkansas No. 12 Arkansas 38, MSU 31 (2OT) 7
2014 Alabama No. 4 Alabama 25, MSU 20 5
2017 Alabama No. 4 Alabama 31, MSU 24 7
2020 Georgia No. 7 Georgia 31, MSU 24 7

I guess you can take just about anything from that.

 

[POTUS]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

Not the same environment. Not the same Alabama by a country mile. Sherrill, and I love him, was gifted one of the softest SECs in history in the late 90's. Comparing his era to this era is like comparing stock cars to F1 cars. Completely different animal.

 

[POTUS]

The point is that no running back should be getting that many carries

Should be calling more pass plays

Hey genius, most of the plays are both runs and passes. Up to the QB to decide. Maybe sit a few plays out.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Despite two turnovers, what was it that allowed us to stay in the game? At least until the defense wore out. Answer - pass game.

What could we not do, no matter what the name of the tailback was? Answer - RuNdAbAwL.

The pass sets up the run against the good teams, not the other way around. Coaches at all levels of football keep ignoring this at their own peril. I give Lebby credit for establishing the pass game, both with QB and WRs. And hint - we were good at this last year as well. But he also continues to just push the run over and over and over, and now it's gotten Fluff hurt. He just kept pounding and pounding against Mizzou and it wasn't necessary.

When are folks gonna learn? I mean as fans I guess it don't matter, we can continue to be stupid, but I really don't see why so many coaches don't see this simple fact. Run/pass balance is fake news.

So unless we think we're gonna go out and buy Georgia/Alabama level players, we better figure this out.

Is anyone arguing we should go back to a run-first offense? Where is all this coming from?

 

[Howiefeltersnstch]

If you cant run block, backs aren't that good it sure doesn't work. If your qb is zero threat to run it makes it hard. We have to be able to run the ball. Balance is the answer. Keeping the defense guessing is the point. Our running game is not as effective when our qb is not a threat.

 

[Maroon13]

It is obviously a new day. But Alabama only lost 5 games from 91 to 94. Won a nc in 92. We gave them all they wanted those years.

Offenses today are obviously much more sophisticated and effective than in previous decades. But that 1994 offense was ideal.

State was stacked on RBs and had enough talent at wr to keep defenses semi honest. We fielded a physical defense too.

I guess my thoughts are you can not be a soft finesse team with little defense and expect to win big games In this league. Spurrier did it a few years but he also got his *** handed to him a few times.

With that said, Fluff is a tough dude. He doesn't have any blocking and his yards after contact is incredible. He gives this offense a run aspect that State didnt have Saturday without him.

 

[L4Dawg]

Despite two turnovers, what was it that allowed us to stay in the game? At least until the defense wore out. Answer - pass game.

What could we not do, no matter what the name of the tailback was? Answer - RuNdAbAwL.

The pass sets up the run against the good teams, not the other way around. Coaches at all levels of football keep ignoring this at their own peril. I give Lebby credit for establishing the pass game, both with QB and WRs. And hint - we were good at this last year as well. But he also continues to just push the run over and over and over, and now it's gotten Fluff hurt. He just kept pounding and pounding against Mizzou and it wasn't necessary.

When are folks gonna learn? I mean as fans I guess it don't matter, we can continue to be stupid, but I really don't see why so many coaches don't see this simple fact. Run/pass balance is fake news.

So unless we think we're gonna go out and buy Georgia/Alabama level players, we better figure this out.

What an idiot.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It is obviously a new day. But Alabama only lost 5 games from 91 to 94. Won a nc in 92. We gave them all they wanted those years.

Offenses today are obviously much more sophisticated and effective than in previous decades. But that 1994 offense was ideal.

State was stacked on RBs and had enough talent at wr to keep defenses semi honest. We fielded a physical defense too.

I guess my thoughts are you can not be a soft finesse team with little defense and expect to win big games In this league. Spurrier did it a few years but he also got his *** handed to him a few times.

With that said, Fluff is a tough dude. He doesn't have any blocking and his yards after contact is incredible. He gives this offense a run aspect that State didnt have Saturday without him.

Passing does not mean soft and finesse. Spurrier's teams have never been finesse.

I really don't even think you can't define an offense as physical or finesse. Physical = good, finesse = bad.

And you made my point by the statement in the bold. Keeping the defense honest is the whole point. The only way to do that is the pass game.

 

[CascillaCountryClub]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

Offenses have changed light years since then…

 

[FlotownDawg]

The Jackie Sherrill era says otherwise.

we played them close those years. We haven't been within a TD of them at the end of the game since 2017. Since 2020 they have out scored us something like 200+ points to 55 points.

Alabama was not the Alabama they are now back in the Sherrill years. Gene Stallings was the coach the first half of the Sherrill era, and he played almost everybody close, including Bowling Green, Southern Miss and Louisiana Tech. Then they went through probation and the Mike DuBose era, when they were hapless except for the one year in 1999 with Shaun Alexander carrying them to an SEC title (they still lost to La Tech that season). Since Saban got there, Alabama has been on another level entirely. It took DeBoer a couple of years to get up to speed (of course we didn’t play them those years) but it looks like he’s got it rolling now.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

You don't have to just run the ball to have sustained drives. There is a short passing game with crosses and flats passes to sustain drives and matriculate down the field and use clock. The Patriots won a bunch doing that. I remember how the Dan Marino Dolphins would score so quick the defense wouldn't get a break and they ended up getting gassed and gave up a bunch of points. The way for a less physically talented team through history is to slow down the game. We would need to do that to play against a team with the talent that Bama has. It's just the reality of the situation.

 

[GloryDawg]

Fluff gets the amount of carries he gets because Kolin Wilson and Xavier Gayten are not all that great. Lebby has usually been a RB by committee guy and those rotations are not happening this year when Fluff is able to play a full game.

Kolin Wilson is 5'9" 190 lbs, He is Brandon Holloway 2.0. He is an open space back not a between the tackles running back. I don't really know what Gayten is at this point because it just hasn't come together for him yet and at this point it might not.

I think Wilson will get to where he needs to be. Probably not this season but he will.

 

[GloryDawg]

We are 4-1 and ranked five weeks into the season. Forget Bama. We were not going to beat them. Would the game have been closer if Fluss was healthy, yes. I am happy where we are.

 

[L4Dawg]

Alabama-179 yards rushing
MSU- 18
Even for goat, this game was a terrible example for his point

Yep. And he obviously has no idea what an RPO is either.

 

[TXDawg.sixpack]

The point is that no running back should be getting that many carries

Should be calling more pass plays

I would imagine that the vast majority of play calls from Lebby are read plays or RPOs. If the QB was handing the ball off that much, it's because of what he saw the defense giving him (light box, heavy zone coverage, etc).

 

[aTotal360]

I don't understand your position on running the ball. It's the most effective tool you have for controlling the game.

I'm not saying you need to run the wishbone, but you need to be able to run the ball to control the clock and manage the pace of the game. Not to mention short yardage situations. I don't mind throwing the ball 55-60% of the time, assuming you are moving the ball.

Lastly, with football being a game of physical dominance, being able to efficiently run the ball usually indicates who is going to win.

 

[L4Dawg]

One dimensional offenses are crushed by good defenses now. The run sets up the pass and the pass sets up the run. If you can't do BOTH, you are dead. Goat wants to go back to a passing version of the wishbone. That amounts to surrender. We saw who won the game Saturday, the team that could run AND pass the ball. That's how we won the first four too.