Trying to get back on board with Pope

[chroix]

I was excited about the team before the Mitchell bull **** so I'm going to try to stay excited but damn that whole thing was/is a kick in the nuts.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Well, if I think he occasionally acts like a dork (and I'm 60), just think what an 18-year old thinks.

I just spit Coke Zero on my keyboard.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

You have repeated that top 3 money line so many times and it is nothing more than speculation as this is not publicly available information.

Did you see Barry Bonds stick a needle in his butt before the BALCO scandal became public? Sometimes you have to take information and evidence and process it and critically think your way through things. Or you can just stick your head in the sand and pretend.

Lets take out "top 3" and go with top 5%. UK spends as much as the top 15-20 schools?

 

[BookofMormon]

Cal at Arkansas:

10 seed
4 seed

Pope at UK:

3 seed
6 seed

Kentucky has a higher kenpom average kenpom ranking over the last two years as well.

Team overall quality isn't appreciably different.

What do you expect from Arkansas this year? They had a transcendent PG last season and managed a 4 seed.

They might be better than us next season, but what is the realistic expectation for them? Another 4 seed? How much closer are they to being elite? Cal has had one borderline elite team, 2022, in almost 10 seasons and they lost in the first round of the tournament.

Stack up Cal's 2020's:

2020 - barely top 30 Kenpom
2021 - Missed the tournament
2022 - 2 seed, lost in first round
2023 - 6 seed
2024 - 3 seed, lost in first round
2025 - 10 seed, sweet 16
2026 - 4 seed sweet 16

Do we feel like we are on the precipice of being elite after 2024 with a 10 seed and a 4 seed? No.

But the good news is that Wagner is that dawg at PG that we desperately need! He will save the team next year!

Coming off the Cal years entails withdrawals. Sure, the cope is gone. You can see that the program has slipped to third tier for going on 10 years now. Your eyes are clear now that you aren't getting the regular hits of heroin in the form of a "promising" prospect. "This year was an utter disappointment, but the next one will be great! AD is reborn in this new recruit!" Inject that straight into the veins! There is always a savior around the corner.

That hit of false hope is gone. Now you can see.

Arguing for Cal to return is demanding another sweet, sweet hit. The truth is too scary, too raw. Just another hit to make all the anxiety melt away for a moment.

Good perspective.

His 2024 team had the Elite 8 right there and they blew it. It's hard to blow a 13 point lead under 5 minutes. That team was tough, and ironically old.

Cal will do Cal - he'll have a decent floor because of it. Expectations for Arkansas this year are a 4 seed. Until further notice and Cal either lands a Flagg like player or decides to use retention/portal more, that will be the expectation. That freshman model is not working in the portal era, 5/5. It's got a clear ceiling. It retro, was it the right move - probably not. Cal had to go through a couple weird years with COVID. Weird for a guy as routine as him isn't good. That 2023 class was awful, and unfortunately he depends on freshmen.

You give him a chance with that 24 and 25 class, and that is gold for a guy like him. And when it's all said and done, you see him out in a way that's planned and there is some non reactive succession in place. But that's the issue with BBN, and what will scare other great coaches. You can't push out HOF's - you do it in a way that's controlled and respectful. All easy in hindsight.

 

[KYFOSSIL]

C

Cal did not need that. Our ‘11 team that went to the FF wasn’t all that talented.

His ‘96 team that beat us had 1 super star and no one else.

His Memphis team that went to the final game had one sure fire pro.

Cal is a great coach. Regardless of what the haters say. Over his time here UK won more NCAA games than any other program.

Over his time here he won more games against higher seeds than any coach in the country.

He has taken every school he’s coached to the FF. Except Ark. And may very well get them there before he’s done.

6 FF’s, 1 title and 850 or so wins is not the resume of a guy that can’t coach.

It was time for Cal to part ways with UK. But not because of coaching.

After 2017 is overall approach, the coaching was horrendous. Missed used Rob and Shepherd.. not to mention missing so many players over the past eight years it's ridiculous. I realize you have a significant man crush on him, but man it makes you blind..

 

[KYFOSSIL]

Cal has won more games at Arkansas, advanced farther than Pope in the NCAA on average, and will a team that features at least three top 20 picks this year.

In addition, it was a net gain to basically jettison UK from all of our NBA alumni, lose 26 games in two years, and lose by a combined 32 points in two NCAA tourney games?

You make it sound like Pope is also not a mile away from being elite. Pope has never even tasted what elite actually is. Not once has even won at the UK historic average winning percentage. Eleven year sample size. Cal had five seasons at lowly UMass where he surpassed the UK average winning percentage.

So no, not a net gain at all. A huge dinosaur dump of a downgrade.

********. Cals first year accomplish. Some Cal couldn't do for five that's how bad off we were last year. Ugly was no doubt the last five years were damn side sometimes just in different ways. Many people speak that Pope has embarrassed the program in the times I think the effort certainly has but Cal embarrassed us with the worst season ever and tournament losses to teams that shouldn't have even been on the floor with us. And with the teams he's had at Arkansas he should have done a lot better.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Did you see Barry Bonds stick a needle in his butt before the BALCO scandal became public? Sometimes you have to take information and evidence and process it and critically think your way through things. Or you can just stick your head in the sand and pretend.

Lets take out "top 3" and go with top 5%. UK spends as much as the top 15-20 schools?

It's mainly a matter of just believing what you choose to believe because you have an obsessive agenda to fire a coach. There is a pretty big difference in top 3 and top 5%. I could probably buy top 5% but it is still just a guess. If you say top 15 to 20 that is about where they are ranked so it nullifies your point anyway.

 

[wildcat111]

For whatever reason, Pope is unable to use the Kentucky brand and our top-3 NIL spending/resources to out-talent other teams, like Duke is doing. So now Pope is just going to have to win at an elite level.

Dan Hurley never has the most talented team, but he coaches the hell out of them, develops his players, and wins.

IDK why Pope can't simply go get the best players with all the money we're spending, but now it's all about what he can do on the court.

No more blowouts. No more middle-of-the-SEC finishes. The only way I will be okay with Pope going forward is if Kentucky is absolutely dominant and, at a bare minimum, an Elite Eight team that stays in the top 5–10 all season long.

If he can do that, then myself and many others will be alright with giving him another year.

"You have to go take it and earn it." -Mark Pope. So go EARN another year.

Ain't going to happen!!

 

[Pygmy Sasquatch]

Honestly, I think Pope needs to get back on board with a lot of the fans. Give us a decent finish in the SEC and an E8 or better run, and then he is.

 

[KentuckyFlyer]

We are in an odd spot imo, we are so used to getting top talent with Cal but then we all can agree he didn't always coach them the best.
Now we have Mark and he fails to get the talent but we are hoping he can coach them up but the injuries have given him the excuse of why that has not happened.

One healthy year of decent talent (this talent is decent enough) and if he can't coach them up then it is time unfortunately to move on.

I agree with your statements, but Pope won't really ever get the opportunity to coach them up. It takes time to get to know a player, see how he fits in, and figure out how to coach him up. None of these guys will stay long enough for that to happen. They're going pro or hitting the portal for a better deal. Since he can't recruit him, he's screwed.
Cal had to go, but Pope wasn't the answer.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

It's mainly a matter of just believing what you choose to believe because you have an obsessive agenda to fire a coach. There is a pretty big difference in top 3 and top 5%. I could probably buy top 5% but it is still just a guess. If you say top 15 to 20 that is about where they are ranked so it nullifies your point anyway.

I have no agenda to fire him. I’ve said he should get year 3. If year 3 is more of the same, then it’s time to move on.

I had no point other than his spending is among the highest in the game. He’s spending about what all the elites are spending. I think it’s hard to argue that.

 

[yoshukai]

Cal has won more games at Arkansas, advanced farther than Pope in the NCAA on average, and will a team that features at least three top 20 picks this year.

In addition, it was a net gain to basically jettison UK from all of our NBA alumni, lose 26 games in two years, and lose by a combined 32 points in two NCAA tourney games?

You make it sound like Pope is also not a mile away from being elite. Pope has never even tasted what elite actually is. Not once has even won at the UK historic average winning percentage. Eleven year sample size. Cal had five seasons at lowly UMass where he surpassed the UK average winning percentage.

So no, not a net gain at all. A huge dinosaur dump of a downgrade.

Pope had a better year than Cal in year one . Last year Cal had the 13th hardest sec schedule vs Popes # 2. Switch schedules and I’d say the seasons would be reversed. And Cal had arguably one of the top 3 players he’s ever had .

You must have really been impressed by his 2 ncaa tournament wins over double digit seeds. He lost the the first decent team he played…..as usual.

 

[*Fox2Monk*]

If we get to the elite 8 this year, BBN will be fine with another year. If we don't make it that far, he's 0-3 on making it past the sweet sixteen. That is not acceptable at Kentucky. Especially at a time where we can buy the players we need, and he can't even do that with the top budget in the sport.

One of the top budgets. I bet Duke is way above everyone, but never has to report anything to anyone.

 

[WildcatFanatic98]

If we get to the elite 8 this year, BBN will be fine with another year. If we don't make it that far, he's 0-3 on making it past the sweet sixteen.

And hardly anyone (and certainly not the dopey homers on here) talks about how we were f'n annihilated by Tennessee and Iowa State in those games. Like no chance at all. JV vs. Varsity. But let's be real, we should've been knocked out in round one last year if not for Otega's ******** banked in 40 footer.

 

[Goingfor9]

Pope should’ve never been the hire and everyone knows it. The whole place melted down the night of when the word broke.. then Barney pull some smoke and mirrors. Pope just doesn’t have it. The thing that scares me is you know like Mike Davis Hubert davis lightning in a bottle program killer season.

 

[BookofMormon]

I agree with your statements, but Pope won't really ever get the opportunity to coach them up. It takes time to get to know a player, see how he fits in, and figure out how to coach him up. None of these guys will stay long enough for that to happen. They're going pro or hitting the portal for a better deal. Since he can't recruit him, he's screwed.
Cal had to go, but Pope wasn't the answer.

It's possible, but you have to be really strategic about how you build your roster.

A kid like Wilkins can be coached up. You have to have a model that retains a kid like that and build them up over time. You have to recruit a bit at the HS level. It can't just be a blast of portal every year, getting the best that you can.

If you want to see the model that works, look at Hurley. He picks up kids in the portal that he can keep for a couple years, and develops them. Reed, Newton, Demary. He grabs a one and done when it makes sense, he always has some lower rated kids he develops in the background, Ball, Karaban. He has a system, it's mindful and intentional. Going after a bunch of portal slop annually isn't going to work, guys all playing togegther for the first time. May scored last year, because he's a great coach, but that was lightning in a bottle with that front court.