UK basketball headed towards worst decade in its history

[CRZ4UK]

This is about Pope. Not Cal. I don’t disagree with anything, but getting players to UK is now Popes job. Say what you will, they spent as much or more than anyone last season. Then lost 14 games. That’s a problem.

All our fans keep saying that. Where is the proof?? NIL is non disclosed. I’ve heard rumors of why and how we offer and if true I would not send my client here. But, I won’t mention them here because I can’t be sure. It’s rumors. Just like what you hear.
Think logically for one second.
We have gotten visits from 15-20 top players. Trilly crystal balls them then they disappear and go elsewhere. yea, we have a problem somewhere. If it was Pope they would never get that far. JMO. Mitch fought NIL every step of the way. He would not help raise money and was verbally against it. It’s why he’s gone. You honestly believe we are tops in NIL and had an AD that would NOT assist coaches in raising money, using collectives and other forms of revenue. Does that make sense?? We are tops in NIL without even trying??? Ok.

 

[kenjiwing]

All our fans keep saying that. Where is the proof?? NIL is non disclosed. I’ve heard rumors of why and how we offer and if true I would not send my client here. But, I won’t mention them here because I can’t be sure. It’s rumors. Just like what you hear.
Think logically for one second.
We have gotten visits from 15-20 top players. Trilly crystal balls them then they disappear and go elsewhere. yea, we have a problem somewhere. If it was Pope they would never get that far. JMO. Mitch fought NIL every step of the way. He would not help raise money and was verbally against it. It’s why he’s gone. You honestly believe we are tops in NIL and had an AD that would NOT assist coaches in raising money, using collectives and other forms of revenue. Does that make sense?? We are tops in NIL without even trying??? Ok.

Everyone believes whatever fits their agenda. Its that simple.

I cant wait until NIL is controlled and public. This whole thing is HORRIBLE and makes me hate college athletics these days.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

All our fans keep saying that. Where is the proof?? NIL is non disclosed. I’ve heard rumors of why and how we offer and if true I would not send my client here. But, I won’t mention them here because I can’t be sure. It’s rumors. Just like what you hear.
Think logically for one second.
We have gotten visits from 15-20 top players. Trilly crystal balls them then they disappear and go elsewhere. yea, we have a problem somewhere. If it was Pope they would never get that far. JMO. Mitch fought NIL every step of the way. He would not help raise money and was verbally against it. It’s why he’s gone. You honestly believe we are tops in NIL and had an AD that would NOT assist coaches in raising money, using collectives and other forms of revenue. Does that make sense?? We are tops in NIL without even trying??? Ok.

Man, enough national and local media have said it. Whether is was or wasn’t the most expensive, I think anyone and everyone could agree it was among those at the top. If you choose to be naive about it and use Mitch/NIL as an excuse, that’s your choice. I think it’s super logical to believe they were one of the biggest spenders. Hell, Pope didn’t even push back against when asked. In fact he leaned into it.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

If you can count, go ahead dickhead, I could give two s.hits less about what a soured fkn prick thinks. So f.uck off.

Easy tough guy. I think your emotions are getting the better of you.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Everyone believes whatever fits their agenda. Its that simple.

I cant wait until NIL is controlled and public. This whole thing is HORRIBLE and makes me hate college athletics these days.

I don’t really think that true. Anyone that has talked pay on that roster has talked numbers. Those that choose not to believe those numbers (btw, that’s NOONE in the media) just say “I’m not sure I believe that” or “where’s the proof”. Again, Pope himself leaned into the cost of the roster when asked.

I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph. I’d love for them to become employees of the university. But it seems nobody (universities, NCAA, players) wants that. So the Wild West continues.

 

[SenseMaker_Cats]

I don’t really think that true. Anyone that has talked pay on that roster has talked numbers. Those that choose not to believe those numbers (btw, that’s NOONE in the media) just say “I’m not sure I believe that” or “where’s the proof”. Again, Pope himself leaned into the cost of the roster when asked.

I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph. I’d love for them to become employees of the university. But it seems nobody (universities, NCAA, players) wants that. So the Wild West continues.

There’s the potential that making them employees could be a bigger crap show than what we’ve already got.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

There’s the potential that making them employees could be a bigger crap show than what we’ve already got.

How so? I get the hurdle to get there is extremely high. The logistics are tough to navigate. Just waive a magic wand (just for the purpose of discussing what you said), once they’re employees would that not be a far better model than what we have now? I get pro sports aren’t perfect, but they’re a helluva lot better than this mess (from a business standpoint). They certainly have more sustainability.

 

[CRZ4UK]

Man, enough national and local media have said it. Whether is was or wasn’t the most expensive, I think anyone and everyone could agree it was among those at the top. If you choose to be naive about it and use Mitch/NIL as an excuse, that’s your choice. I think it’s super logical to believe they were one of the biggest spenders. Hell, Pope didn’t even push back against when asked. In fact he leaned into it.

Why wouldn’t you lean into positive press?? The quote that sticks with me is Pope said 95% of what he sees has zero factual basis. 95%. You didn’t supply even one reason why except the press said it. The Press?? Turn to any channel and watch the same story be covered from 2 totally different views. One positive, one negative. To each is own, but I’ll just stick with common sense over press coverage.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Only kind of joking here but does anyone else just count where the season ended? EX: A final four is a final four not a final four an elite eight and a sweet sixteen.

I know what you are saying but it's not like anyone fails to understand the point.

 

[SenseMaker_Cats]

I know what you are saying but it's not like anyone fails to understand the point.

I’m get confused easy Paul. Lol

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Correct. The differences in both are massive. The Cal contract was awful not in hindsight. The ONLY way that contract was going to be successful is if Cal continued to kill it. Part of contract negotiation is realizing you’re paying for future performance and not past performances. At that point, UK could’ve hired about anyone they wanted. Why? Cal had the program at the top of the mountain. Call his bluff, and if he bolts then go hire the best that’s out there. Mitch handcuffed the program, just like he did with the Stoops deal.

Your odds of doing as well as what you had in Cal at that point is not a great gamble. To just let a coach go easily at that point with that level of success would have been inexcusable and a lot more reason to have criticized the A.D. imo. I don't know that 10 years was absolutely necessary but a strong effort to retain him was essential as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

No emotions, your just a sad fkn excuse for a Kentucky fan. And I was glad you had to run your mouth to me, I wanted to say Hi, and tell you what a sorry a.ss fan, you really are

Thanks? Feel better?

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Why wouldn’t you lean into positive press?? The quote that sticks with me is Pope said 95% of what he sees has zero factual basis. 95%. You didn’t supply even one reason why except the press said it. The Press?? Turn to any channel and watch the same story be covered from 2 totally different views. One positive, one negative. To each is own, but I’ll just stick with common sense over press coverage.

Common sense is one of the biggest brands in college basketball didn’t have one of the highest payrolls in college basketball? Uh, okay.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Your odds of doing as well as what you had in Cal at that point is not a great gamble. To just let a coach go easily at that point with that level of success would have been inexcusable and a lot more reason to have criticized the A.D. imo. I don't know that 10 years was absolutely necessary but a strong effort to retain him was essential as far as I'm concerned.

You weren’t just letting him go easily. You make him the highest paid coach in the game at 5 yrs with a large buyout. If he walks, he walks (he wouldn’t have). All of this is firmly rooted in my belief Cal wasn’t going to UCLA. The NBA I can buy, but he was where he wanted to be. Hell, he’d still be here if he hadn’t have broken his own clause in his UK deal. Maybe the one decent thing Mitch did in his last few years.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Eagle_Nuts. Eagle_Nuts. Eagle_Nuts.
Go away


Did you fkn go away, I heard it works with f.uck heads like you.

There is the block feature. Typically the weak-minded with your vocabulary set choose that feature.

 

[TheBlueMist]

Lifetime contract would certainly seem to imply the job is his as long as he wants it and that is simply inaccurate. Wanting to let him go after the 2019 season is absolutely stupid after a 10 year run of 305-71 81.1%, with a title, another title game appearance, 4 Final Fours, and 7 Elite Eights.

And yet, it would have been the right move despite the pushback given the leverage Mitch gave up with the contract. I could see that Cal was losing his fastball.

 

[TheBlueMist]

Correct. The differences in both are massive. The Cal contract was awful not in hindsight. The ONLY way that contract was going to be successful is if Cal continued to kill it. Part of contract negotiation is realizing you’re paying for future performance and not past performances. At that point, UK could’ve hired about anyone they wanted. Why? Cal had the program at the top of the mountain. Call his bluff, and if he bolts then go hire the best that’s out there. Mitch handcuffed the program, just like he did with the Stoops deal.

Exactly. The reason the Brewers are a better organization than other similar, small-market clubs is that they "churn," by trading talent based on projected performance rather than past performance. While you may miss on a few, it's the only way to compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, Braves, and other clubs that just purchase talent. As a Reds fan, I wish my club did the same.

 

[TheBlueMist]

Your odds of doing as well as what you had in Cal at that point is not a great gamble. To just let a coach go easily at that point with that level of success would have been inexcusable and a lot more reason to have criticized the A.D. imo. I don't know that 10 years was absolutely necessary but a strong effort to retain him was essential as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with your point that an offer should have been made but not to the degree that Mitch made it. I thought it was pretty obvious that Cal was using UCLA to secure a better contract with UK.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Exactly. The reason the Brewers are a better organization than other similar, small-market clubs is that they "churn," by trading talent based on projected performance rather than past performance. While you may miss on a few, it's the only way to compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, Braves, and other clubs that just purchase talent. As a Reds fan, I wish my club did the same.

I do not see where any coach you could have gotten projected better going forward than Cal at that point in time. UK basketball does not correlate to the Brewers/small market level baseball teams anyway.

Correct. The differences in both are massive. The Cal contract was awful not in hindsight. The ONLY way that contract was going to be successful is if Cal continued to kill it. Part of contract negotiation is realizing you’re paying for future performance and not past performances. At that point, UK could’ve hired about anyone they wanted. Why? Cal had the program at the top of the mountain. Call his bluff, and if he bolts then go hire the best that’s out there. Mitch handcuffed the program, just like he did with the Stoops deal.

The idea that he handcuffed UK is garbage as they are both gone short of completing those contracts and those contracts have no significant impact on UK moving forward.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

For my friends on both sides of the debates, remember these are basketball opinions. Some of the posts in this thread are way outta line considering the situation. No one is doing you harm by posting an opinion about basketball that you disagree with. My two cents.

 

[TheBlueMist]

I do not see where any coach you could have gotten projected better going forward than Cal at that point in time. UK basketball does not correlate to the Brewers/small market level baseball teams anyway.

The idea that he handcuffed UK is garbage as they are both gone short of completing those contracts and those contracts have no significant impact on UK moving forward.

Analogies aren't correlations. Analogies map information from one situation to another. The point was forecasting by selling at the opportune time to ensure you don't suffer from diminishing returns. Since the Cal situation isn't selling per se, the analogous mapping I intended was Cal being allowed to leave and hiring a coach with a better forecast. If you don't trust Mitch to forecast correctly and make the right hire, that's a worthy argument. Otherwise, we'll just agree to disagree that UK wouldn't have hired a coach in 2019 who would have had a better record than Cal from 2019-2024 (66.9% win percentage).

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

You want people to think your a nice guy now huh, I believe you started with the gay s.hit, if I remember right. I wouldn't waste my time blocking a jerk like you.

So go away DICK, that is your name right? And last name Head, if I remember right.

Big dog, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Gotta be honest, I don’t have to try to look like a nice guy. You just keep on posting and replying. You’re doing the work for me.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Exactly. The reason the Brewers are a better organization than other similar, small-market clubs is that they "churn," by trading talent based on projected performance rather than past performance. While you may miss on a few, it's the only way to compete with the Dodgers, Yankees, Braves, and other clubs that just purchase talent. As a Reds fan, I wish my club did the same.

Spot on and a great comp

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

I do not see where any coach you could have gotten projected better going forward than Cal at that point in time. UK basketball does not correlate to the Brewers/small market level baseball teams anyway.

The idea that he handcuffed UK is garbage as they are both gone short of completing those contracts and those contracts have no significant impact on UK moving forward.

Cal bailed him out, thankfully. Stoops did a bit as well by agreeing to spread out his buyout. But sure, money doesn’t matter. Right? Those are two of the worst contracts ever for UK coaches, but please defend them.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

For my friends on both sides of the debates, remember these are basketball opinions. Some of the posts in this thread are way outta line considering the situation. No one is doing you harm by posting an opinion about basketball that you disagree with. My two cents.

I love that Paul likes this post. And resorted to name calling in the same thread. Beautiful.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

I love that Paul likes this post. And resorted to name calling in the same thread. Beautiful.

Just another pathetic weak effort from you. I'm pretty positive I have not called anyone names in this thread as you claim. I challenge you to quote it for me if it exists. Accusing you of a clownish response does not equal calling you names before you try that angle. I expect that is the most egregious thing you will find if you review it.

TVI and I had numerous exchanges from opposite positions in this thread and it was very cordial because we both debated from genuine perspectives as opposed to going off on irrational rants. You tend to receive the level of respect that you deserve from me. I'll have patience with the venting to a certain extent but if someone does nothing but whine and trash up the board at all times with negativity I'll make no apologies for identifying them by their behavior on occasion.

You are developing quite the obsession with me. It is a strange individual that attacks people for liking certain posts. This is exactly how the Dandy Andy troll was behaving towards me before I apparently drove him off the deep end into total insanity.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Cal bailed him out, thankfully. Stoops did a bit as well by agreeing to spread out his buyout. But sure, money doesn’t matter. Right? Those are two of the worst contracts ever for UK coaches, but please defend them.

The contracts were not all that out of line given the time and circumstances. Hindsight bias or irrational hatred of Mitch is the main reason for your position. It was not a reasonable assumption that their performance would quickly fall off the way it did. Cal had just lead us through one of the better stretches in our illustrious history and Stoops had just notched the second 10 win season in four years for our longtime doormat of a football program.

Regardless of how they went out it never actually handcuffed our programs which was your claim. I also would not have lost my mind like so many of you had either coach been retained another season or two due to financial concerns. There was still a chance they could have improved on their latest results or at least matched what their replacements manage in that time and it would not have had much if any effect on our efforts going forward from there either.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Wait. So there’s no speculation preseason? So when you or others say this is a good roster and think they’ll be a good team, we can’t do that either? Whadya wanna talk about? It’s August. The weather? Under Pope we aren’t allowed to speculate. Perfect.

Well, it’s clear my post went way over your head. You should stick to the weather.

 

[UKCowboys]

This is about Pope. Not Cal. I don’t disagree with anything, but getting players to UK is now Popes job. Say what you will, they spent as much or more than anyone last season. Then lost 14 games. That’s a problem.

And you have beaten to death with a stick. The AD gave him another year. Why continue the same criticizing 24/7? Judge Pope and this years team on this years results. There will be plenty of time for you to complain more if things go wrong

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

I love that Paul likes this post. And resorted to name calling in the same thread. Beautiful.

Never one time had anything remotely close to a negative interaction with Paul. He’s a very fair guy imo. 99.9% of the time that I’ve ever seen a nasty post from him, it looks like it is done defensively. If you disagree that’s fine — I find him to be as good faith of a debater as there is.

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

For my friends on both sides of the debates, remember these are basketball opinions. Some of the posts in this thread are way outta line considering the situation. No one is doing you harm by posting an opinion about basketball that you disagree with. My two cents.

 

[CRZ4UK]

Common sense is one of the biggest brands in college basketball didn’t have one of the highest payrolls in college basketball? Uh, okay.

Let’s look at it from another common sense angle.
White the AD at Tennessee would lie, cheat, steal and sell live babies for cash to fund his programs. Filed multiple lawsuits to pay players any way he could. Broke and pushed every NIL ruling out of his way.
Barnhart fought NIL tooth and nail. Would not allow a single collective for the first 2 years. When he finally caved. The AD and Administration offered no help raising money. He put it all on the head coaches to raise money. Wouldn’t help a bit.
Barnhart was let go because of that stance.

Those are facts: Now, you expect me to believe we have more cash than anyone to buy players. What does Common sense say?
We took a larger Rev share amount and put it into basketball than any other SEC team. That means football will suffer down the road.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Analogies aren't correlations. Analogies map information from one situation to another. The point was forecasting by selling at the opportune time to ensure you don't suffer from diminishing returns. Since the Cal situation isn't selling per se, the analogous mapping I intended was Cal being allowed to leave and hiring a coach with a better forecast. If you don't trust Mitch to forecast correctly and make the right hire, that's a worthy argument. Otherwise, we'll just agree to disagree that UK wouldn't have hired a coach in 2019 who would have had a better record than Cal from 2019-2024 (66.9% win percentage).

You did make the comparison to our situation. Once again you are basing this entirely on hindsight. It was not realistic and far from a safe bet that you were just going to get someone who forecasted better than Cal as of 2019. The decision could not have been based on the unknown upcoming seasons and there was every reason to expect much better than what played out and very little reason to have expected the kind of downturn that occurred.

Your entire premise assumes it was obviously foreseeable that diminishing returns were what was instore for our future and that was a ridiculous assumption to have made at that time.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Well, it’s clear my post went way over your head. You should stick to the weather.

Please explain then. I’m genuinely curious.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

And you have beaten to death with a stick. The AD gave him another year. Why continue the same criticizing 24/7? Judge Pope and this years team on this years results. There will be plenty of time for you to complain more if things go wrong

Wasn’t complaining. Just having a conversation with someone that didn’t believe the roster was one of the most expensive last year. Said they chose to believe common sense and not the media. My point was common sense would suggest one of the biggest brands in the game would have one of the biggest payrolls.

FWIW…Pope asked for this. He wanted the smoke and he’s getting it. The criticism will stop when he actually has a season that’s up to standards. Finish top 4 of the SEC. Get a double bye. Get to the finals of the SEC tourney. Get to the E8. Quit getting boat raced and acting like a whipped puppy. Pope himself asked for the media and fanbase to hold him accountable. You can keep defending and making excuses. It’s your right. I’ll keep doing what our coach asked us to do.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Never one time had anything remotely close to a negative interaction with Paul. He’s a very fair guy imo. 99.9% of the time that I’ve ever seen a nasty post from him, it looks like it is done defensively. If you disagree that’s fine — I find him to be as good faith of a debater as there is.

He’s a name caller. All I need to know.

 

[Eagles_Ball_69]

Let’s look at it from another common sense angle.
White the AD at Tennessee would lie, cheat, steal and sell live babies for cash to fund his programs. Filed multiple lawsuits to pay players any way he could. Broke and pushed every NIL ruling out of his way.
Barnhart fought NIL tooth and nail. Would not allow a single collective for the first 2 years. When he finally caved. The AD and Administration offered no help raising money. He put it all on the head coaches to raise money. Wouldn’t help a bit.
Barnhart was let go because of that stance.

Those are facts: Now, you expect me to believe we have more cash than anyone to buy players. What does Common sense say?
We took a larger Rev share amount and put it into basketball than any other SEC team. That means football will suffer down the road.

Yes. I fully believe they spent as much as anyone last year. I also believe most of what you’re saying about Tennessee is true. I’m also smart enough to know most of that Tennessee money went to…wait for it…wait for it…football. If you believing they didn’t spend as much as anyone helps you explain away Popes issues, cool. But you’re about one of ten dudes in the world that are gonna die on that hill. They spent a ton and sucked. That’s all. I hope they spend the most this year too. I just hope they don’t suck this year. That would be cool.

 

[Snarks]

I will wholeheartedly disagree with you on Pope’s first team underachieving. He put that squad together out of the clearance bin of the transfer portal and, even with a ton of injuries, beat a lot of good teams and made the second weekend of the tourney. Yes, last year was incredibly disappointing, but you can’t honestly say the first team underachieved.

He had some good wins, but also finished nearly .500 in the SEC his first season. I thought it was good for having such little time to assemble a team. But, last season was a disaster. This is the year Pope needs to prove he can field a contender. So far he’s shown he can have a good (but nowhere near) great team.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

He’s a name caller. All I need to know.

Whaaaaaaa! I'm still waiting for you to quote where I called anyone a name in this thread as you claimed.

 

[CRZ4UK]

Yes. I fully believe they spent as much as anyone last year. I also believe most of what you’re saying about Tennessee is true. I’m also smart enough to know most of that Tennessee money went to…wait for it…wait for it…football. If you believing they didn’t spend as much as anyone helps you explain away Popes issues, cool. But you’re about one of ten dudes in the world that are gonna die on that hill. They spent a ton and sucked. That’s all. I hope they spend the most this year too. I just hope they don’t suck this year. That would be cool.

They spent their rev share which is a **** ton of money. I’m not saying we don’t spend. It’s the extra above rev share is why recruits are going elsewhere. Some schools like UL are promising payments for several years after the player is gone.
Barnhart would not let a deal like that happen in a million years.
We disagree and that’s fine.