Team Blue: Help me understand what is going on in the Democratic Party

[alaskanseminole]

how - functionally - would we get some surprise version of sharia law in this country all of a sudden?

i just don't understand how this can be considered a rational fear, especially considering muslims make up approximately 1% of the us population and the fact that every religious minority immigrant group faced the same fears (catholics would make us subservient to the pope, jews would make us subservient to israel)

It's not all of a sudden...that's kind of the point.

the Muslim Brotherhood concern has never been, "Wake up tomorrow and surprise...Sharia!" They have historically viewed societal change as a generational project...building influence through civic organizations, education, politics, charities, and community institutions over decades.

Take post-WWII Japan as an example. They abandoned military expansion and instead became an economic powerhouse, with companies like Toyota, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, and dozens of others establishing a YUGE presence here in the US. That's an example of influence through economics. My concern with any ideological movement, though...whether it's the Muslim Brotherhood, Christian nationalism, or anything else isn't economic influence...it's influence aimed at fundamentally changing our constitutional or civic framework over generations.

Do I think America is on the verge of becoming an Islamic state? No. We have strong constitutional protections, just saying it crosses my mind and I wouldn't completely dismiss long-term ideological movements simply because they're patient. That's all.

 

[tarheelbybirth1]

View attachment 1385126

Seriously?

Yeah, sure, he’s not really a “Democratic Socialist,” he’s just very progressive to the point Bernie and AOC couldn’t wait to endorse him.

Yeah, sure, he’s not really part of the “Jews will not replace us!” crowd, he’s just not exactly opposed to the idea, either.

And, yeah, sure, he’s not really publicly saying America deserved 9/11, or dressing up as Mao Zedong and praising Zedong as one of the world’s GOAT leaders. No, not at all. He just likes being chummy (and attending pool parties a couple days prior to the primary election) with a popular leftist social media influencer who did say those things. No biggie.






I don’t know if there is anything more Team Blue than working tirelessly to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory months or weeks ahead of an even-numbered year election.

I don’t get it.

Again…seriously?

So... let me get this straight... you assign objectionable roles to him - but not really - and you wonder what's wrong with the Dems? Just out of curiosity - from your "independent" perspective - do you ever hang out with people who say or do things you don't endorse?

 

[jimneffer]

i've always said that i guess i'm not as afraid of communists as i should be

but when a guy is labeled a communist for advocating for slight increases to the top marginal tax rate and adopting a health care system similar to england or france, it just makes it hard for me to think that's inevitably going to lead to stalinism

 

[THE_DEVIL]

These current progressives are more like FDR than anything we have seen in decades. The bulk of the Democratic establishment are neoliberals which are to say they are essentially on the spectrum of free market capitalists. In function in the US a free-market capitalist democrat ends up just being someone that serves the people that give him the most money which leaves regular people unrepresented.

Portions of the Democratic party started moving away from New Deal type politics in the 60s/70s but the Democrats really ceased New Deal politics in 1992 when the Third Way Democrats led by Clinton and other prominent Democrats like Joe Biden. Clinton was willing to sign off on trade deals like NAFTA, permanent normalized trade relations with China, and the Telecommunications Act of 96 which were all bills and agreements Republicans had been crafting since Reagan. You can thank the TCC of 96 for the mass consolidation of media and for Fox News being allowed to exist.

Minus two years under Obama the Democrats have been most ineffective because they either compromised with Republicans or got hindered by people that basically function as controlled opposition like Sinema, Manchin, and Fetterman. Even Obama's crown achievement the ACA was a watered-down health insurance bill that looked suspiciously like Romney's plan.

Unfortunately, it has taken people 30-some years to catch on but the neoliberal/Third Way/ centrist/moderate Democrats do not serve the people, so they had to start listening for people that sound like the politicians that did look out for regular people. So, what we are seeing is the reoccurrence of New Deal type politics to combat the oligarch the nation as succumbed to.

You seriously should not be worried by these politicians. The nation is on the path of a corporate takeover where corporations are considered people and their money speech. The debt is at levels we never saw under the New Deal. Income inequality has surpassed the income inequality of the Gilded Age.

But most importantly, an unoffensive status quo moderate will not be capable of guiding us out of this disaster.

Absolutely spot on. +eleventy billion pts awarded

 

[nytigerfan]

View attachment 1385126

Seriously?

Yeah, sure, he’s not really a “Democratic Socialist,” he’s just very progressive to the point Bernie and AOC couldn’t wait to endorse him.

Yeah, sure, he’s not really part of the “Jews will not replace us!” crowd, he’s just not exactly opposed to the idea, either.

And, yeah, sure, he’s not really publicly saying America deserved 9/11, or dressing up as Mao Zedong and praising Zedong as one of the world’s GOAT leaders. No, not at all. He just likes being chummy (and attending pool parties a couple days prior to the primary election) with a popular leftist social media influencer who did say those things. No biggie.






I don’t know if there is anything more Team Blue than working tirelessly to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory months or weeks ahead of an even-numbered year election.

I don’t get it.

Again…seriously?

What I find hilarious about this is that in the past, when the Dems have put their finger on the scale to make sure they get more moderate candidates, the right was up in arms. When they gave Kamala Harris the candidacy without a primary process, the right was up in arms.

Now you see a pure primary happening, a more extreme left candidate being elected in the primary, and guess what? The right is up in arms.

Also hilarious, the day after this guy won the primary, the right rolls out a "terrorism expert" to claim the guy's a terrorist. I'm sure they had that information prior to the primary, but they waited until afterward to share it with the world.

 

[AFM22]

What I find hilarious about this is that in the past, when the Dems have put their finger on the scale to make sure they get more moderate candidates, the right was up in arms. When they gave Kamala Harris the candidacy without a primary process, the right was up in arms.

Now you see a pure primary happening, a more extreme left candidate being elected in the primary, and guess what? The right is up in arms.

Also hilarious, the day after this guy won the primary, the right rolls out a "terrorism expert" to claim the guy's a terrorist. I'm sure they had that information prior to the primary, but they waited until afterward to share it with the world.

They are an excitable bunch.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Hong is quite the specimen lol

I was actually asking about the "addicted to lithium" part because that was bs. It's no secret my pop is bipolar on lithium. Lithium isn't an addictive drug like opioids or benzodiazepines. It's a mood stabilizer that's often required to keep bipolar disorder under control. Sure, a lithium overdose is a serious medical event but it's not being "addicted to lithium."

That said, if everything else you posted is accurate, then it sounds like she's not fit to serve. But let's not invent addictions that don't exist.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Oh, so that explains your erection in this thread. Marvelous.

He and his ilk really are incapable of bringing anything noteworthy to the table. This forum has great potential to be a place to exchange ideals, but they simple want to name call and flap in a vacuum.

 

[Aardvark86]

Saying there's no daylight between communists and democratic socialists is somewhat wild to me.

Ok, fine, whatever...but don't let those trees block your view of the forest.

 

[gohawks50]

However, I do think citizenship carries w/ it a responsibility to embrace American civic values and culture...assuming those people in the video are US Citizens.

Just curious, what do you consider American civic values and culture?

 

[Scrubby]

OP asks a question to "team blue"

Right wingers immediately run to twitter to drag posts back to IHOP.

I identify as team blue. Checkmate.

 

[Aardvark86]

I identify as team blue. Checkmate.

Just for clarity here...

When you say you "identify as" team blue, does that mean you're actually team red and probably irrevocably so, but want people to treat you as though you are team blue?

 

[alaskanseminole]

i've always said that i guess i'm not as afraid of communists as i should be

but when a guy is labeled a communist for advocating for slight increases to the top marginal tax rate and adopting a health care system similar to england or france, it just makes it hard for me to think that's inevitably going to lead to stalinism

Just playing devils advocate for a min (so don't shoot me). But if someone wanted to advance a long-term ideological agenda in American politics, they wouldn't start a third party...they'd have to work w/in one of the two major parties and adopt positions that already resonate with that party's base, no?

Of course that's true whether you're talking about democratic socialists, Christian nationalists, libertarians, or any other ideological movement. Influence in our system comes from coalitions, not parachuting in and winning as an independent. The guys I voted for, Perot and Johnson are good pretty solid examples of how impossible that is.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that's what's happening here. ...just saying if someone were trying to influence American politics over the long term, infiltrating or aligning with an existing major party would be a far more plausible.

TL;DR version
Be careful people aren't just telling you what you want to hear. Look at Trump.

 

[pjhawk]

View attachment 1385126

Seriously?

Yeah, sure, he’s not really a “Democratic Socialist,” he’s just very progressive to the point Bernie and AOC couldn’t wait to endorse him.

Yeah, sure, he’s not really part of the “Jews will not replace us!” crowd, he’s just not exactly opposed to the idea, either.

And, yeah, sure, he’s not really publicly saying America deserved 9/11, or dressing up as Mao Zedong and praising Zedong as one of the world’s GOAT leaders. No, not at all. He just likes being chummy (and attending pool parties a couple days prior to the primary election) with a popular leftist social media influencer who did say those things. No biggie.






I don’t know if there is anything more Team Blue than working tirelessly to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory months or weeks ahead of an even-numbered year election.

I don’t get it.

Again…seriously?

He's a son of Egyptian immigrants, a medical doctor, a Rhodes Scholar. He's among the best that America produces, and politically is the equivalent of a mainstream Social Democrat in any European or other first world country.

He'll almost certainly win any debates with his opponent, have you even ever seen him interviewed or talk?

It's incredibly depressing for the future of this country if this type of guy is just going to be automatically disqualified by lots of people simply on the basis of his name and creed.

I think anyone who sees him interviewed or in debate will be won over, Stevens was pretty bad per the communications skill set.

 

[jimneffer]

Just playing devils advocate for a min (so don't shoot me). But if someone wanted to advance a long-term ideological agenda in American politics, they wouldn't start a third party...they'd have to work w/in one of the two major parties and adopt positions that already resonate with that party's base, no?

Of course that's true whether you're talking about democratic socialists, Christian nationalists, libertarians, or any other ideological movement. Influence in our system comes from coalitions, not parachuting in and winning as an independent. The guys I voted for, Perot and Johnson are good pretty solid examples of how impossible that is.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that's what's happening here. ...just saying if someone were trying to influence American politics over the long term, infiltrating or aligning with an existing major party would be a far more plausible.

TL;DR version
Be careful people aren't just telling you what you want to hear. Look at Trump.

yes...our two party system essentially requires membership in one of the two parties to meaningfully participate

and it also prevents wild unexpected shifts in national policy, except when possible through executive action (which things like health care and tax policy is not)

if you're argument is that it's a theoretical concern...sure. if you're argument is that it's a reasonable, relevant concern...i fully disagree.

 

[pjhawk]

This guy would probably bury you up to your neck for your avatar

Racist scum is racist scumming.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Just curious, what do you consider American civic values and culture?

Fair question. I don't mean you have to start eating apple pie and watching baseball (maybe football, though )

I just mean embracing our constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. Keep your religion, traditions, and heritage...that's part of what makes America unique. I just don't think the goal should be to recreate the political or cultural system you left behind.

My son actually has a few foreigner friends from school who have told him they wish their parents would let them celebrate things like Christmas with everyone else. Nobody's saying they have to give up their own traditions, but I think it's healthy to embrace some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home too. To me, that's my "assimilation" meme intent. ...it's not assimilation by force, but certainly by choice. Like, do you really want to be here?

 

[WDSMHawk]

Sounds like something a Trump chump would say in defense of their third vote for the Tangerine Tyrant.

I'm not defending anything. Just stating facts

AES. From everything that's been reported is a great candidate and person. I'd vote for him 10x if I lived in Michigan.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Ok, fine, whatever...but don't let those trees block your view of the forest.

I don't want us to swing the pendulum too far away from where the MAGA movement has pulled us either, but you're too smart for that statement. Wanting things that non-communist countries all around the world currently provide, and then saying no daylight. Like, you know that's hyperbole right?

For me to take anything else you say seriously, you shouldn't start with a statement that silly. Makes you come off as a partisan hack. Basically, "Nazi!" : Left :: Right : "Commie!" When a criticism from someone on the left starts out by saying a conservative is a Nazi, I would expect everything else they say to not be taken seriously by people who don't already agree with them. I'll never be able to see through the Redwood to see the forest.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

These current progressives are more like FDR than anything we have seen in decades. The bulk of the Democratic establishment are neoliberals which are to say they are essentially on the spectrum of free market capitalists. In function in the US a free-market capitalist democrat ends up just being someone that serves the people that give him the most money which leaves regular people unrepresented.

Portions of the Democratic party started moving away from New Deal type politics in the 60s/70s but the Democrats really ceased New Deal politics in 1992 when the Third Way Democrats led by Clinton and other prominent Democrats like Joe Biden. Clinton was willing to sign off on trade deals like NAFTA, permanent normalized trade relations with China, and the Telecommunications Act of 96 which were all bills and agreements Republicans had been crafting since Reagan. You can thank the TCC of 96 for the mass consolidation of media and for Fox News being allowed to exist.

Minus two years under Obama the Democrats have been most ineffective because they either compromised with Republicans or got hindered by people that basically function as controlled opposition like Sinema, Manchin, and Fetterman. Even Obama's crown achievement the ACA was a watered-down health insurance bill that looked suspiciously like Romney's plan.

Unfortunately, it has taken people 30-some years to catch on but the neoliberal/Third Way/ centrist/moderate Democrats do not serve the people, so they had to start listening for people that sound like the politicians that did look out for regular people. So, what we are seeing is the reoccurrence of New Deal type politics to combat the oligarch the nation as succumbed to.

You seriously should not be worried by these politicians. The nation is on the path of a corporate takeover where corporations are considered people and their money speech. The debt is at levels we never saw under the New Deal. Income inequality has surpassed the income inequality of the Gilded Age.

But most importantly, an unoffensive status quo moderate will not be capable of guiding us out of this disaster.

I think the big difference between your view and mine is that you think because someone is a moderate they are more susceptible to the siren call of privilege. On the other hand I think the lesson of history is that most people are susceptible to those failings regardless of economic ideology.

Every socialist country in history has fallen prey to the same issue. Same with feudal/monarchical societies. Same with capitalist societies. In fact socialist societies have fallen prey to this 100% of the time. Full stop. There is no socialist economy that does not have an elite group creating stratification between the haves and the have nots. There is no socialist country that did not have the privileged few exploiting the masses. It does the worst job at combatting these human foibles.

It is NOT the economic system that is the failing. It is human avarice and power dynamics. So instead of throwing out the economic model, maybe we solve…you know…the actual problem.

Term limits. Bans on insider trading. Bans on self dealing. New laws to combat Citizens United. Get money out of politics one way or the other. Re-establish the role of Congress. Those are the things that matter if you actually want to change.

 

[alaskanseminole]

yes...our two party system essentially requires membership in one of the two parties to meaningfully participate

and it also prevents wild unexpected shifts in national policy, except when possible through executive action (which things like health care and tax policy is not)

if you're argument is that it's a theoretical concern...sure. if you're argument is that it's a reasonable, relevant concern...i fully disagree.

Ya, it's mostly theoretical. Our constitutional system and the fact Muslims are a small part of the population (not like when this happened in Egypt) make it unlikely...hopefully.

The old military brain kicks in from time to time so I never 100% dismiss long-term ideological movements simply because they're patient or unlikely. We're already seeing some European countries struggle w/ the same questions of assimilation, mirrored communities, and Islamist influence (not some Muslim Brotherhood takeover, per se), but the kinds of integration issues I was illuding to that come with large-scale immigration over decades.

That said, does it keep me up at night? Nope. Does it occasionally cross my mind when this topic comes up. Yup. That's about the extent of it.

 

[Aardvark86]

I don't want us to swing the pendulum too far away from where the MAGA movement has pulled us either, but you're too smart for that statement. Wanting things that non-communist countries all around the world currently provide, and then saying no daylight. Like, you know that's hyperbole right?

For me to take anything else you say seriously, you shouldn't start with a statement that silly. Makes you come off as a partisan hack. Basically, "Nazi!" : Left :: Right : "Commie!" When a criticism from someone on the left starts out by saying a conservative is a Nazi, I would expect everything else they say to not be taken seriously by people who don't already agree with them. I'll never be able to see through the Redwood to see the forest.

The forest I was describing was the forest in which representatives and senators don't talk much about 'representing' anybody, but this is really quite a lovely little rathole.

And just so we're clear...with the possible exception of Steven Miller, I don't think the modern right are actually Nazis. I think they're actually nihilist kleptocrats. Which may well be worse.

 

[Aardvark86]

Just curious, what do you consider American civic values and culture?

The answer lies here:

 

[pjhawk]

Fair question. I don't mean you have to start eating apple pie and watching baseball (maybe football, though )

I just mean embracing our constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. Keep your religion, traditions, and heritage...that's part of what makes America unique. I just don't think the goal should be to recreate the political or cultural system you left behind.

My son actually has a few foreigner friends from school who have told him they wish their parents would let them celebrate things like Christmas with everyone else. Nobody's saying they have to give up their own traditions, but I think it's healthy to embrace some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home too. To me, that's my "assimilation" meme intent. ...it's not assimilation by force, but certainly by choice. Like, do you really want to be here?

What does any of this have to do with Al-Sayed?

 

[gohawks50]

Fair question. I don't mean you have to start eating apple pie and watching baseball (maybe football, though )

I just mean embracing our constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. Keep your religion, traditions, and heritage...that's part of what makes America unique. I just don't think the goal should be to recreate the political or cultural system you left behind.

My son actually has a few foreigner friends from school who have told him they wish their parents would let them celebrate things like Christmas with everyone else. Nobody's saying they have to give up their own traditions, but I think it's healthy to embrace some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home too. To me, that's my "assimilation" meme intent. ...it's not assimilation by force, but certainly by choice. Like, do you really want to be here?

I agree with the constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. The Christmas tradition is a religious one and although I love celebrating it, I don't consider it an American tradition. There have always been Americans that didn't celebrate Christmas due to their own religious beliefs.

Which of these new crop of progressives do you feel don't embrace the constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, or seeing themselves as an American first?

 

[alaskanseminole]

It is NOT the economic system that is the failing. It is human avarice and power dynamics. So instead of throwing out the economic model, maybe we solve…you know…the actual problem.

Spot on and we've got plenty of history to back it up. Human nature is a selfish one.

 

[jimneffer]

Fair question. I don't mean you have to start eating apple pie and watching baseball (maybe football, though )

I just mean embracing our constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. Keep your religion, traditions, and heritage...that's part of what makes America unique. I just don't think the goal should be to recreate the political or cultural system you left behind.

My son actually has a few foreigner friends from school who have told him they wish their parents would let them celebrate things like Christmas with everyone else. Nobody's saying they have to give up their own traditions, but I think it's healthy to embrace some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home too. To me, that's my "assimilation" meme intent. ...it's not assimilation by force, but certainly by choice. Like, do you really want to be here?

going back to what initiated these comments (the tweet of parade or ceremony or whatever that is)...

why do you think their participation in that means they don't believe in those things? i have no idea what any of that was or means, but plenty of immigrant groups have religious ceremonies and parades. this has happened in this country for going on two centuries now.

maybe you dont' think it's relevant, but it is certainly true that these concerns have been made about every religious minority immigrant group - that they refused to assimilate, that their allegiance would be with the ethnicity or religious leaders instead of the US.

maybe that was a terrorist recruitment parade. or maybe it was just a muslim holiday or ceremony. i wouldn't know (and it doesn't seem like anyone else here does either).

 

[alaskanseminole]

What does any of this have to do with Al-Sayed?

Nothing. I was specifcally answering the side-bar question from

gohawks50 said:
Just curious, what do you consider American civic values and culture?

 

[UrHuckleberry]

The forest I was describing was the forest in which representatives and senators don't talk much about 'representing' anybody, but this is really quite a lovely little rathole.

And just so we're clear...with the possible exception of Steven Miller, I don't think the modern right are actually Nazis. I think they're actually nihilist kleptocrats. Which may well be worse.

That's all fine, was just talking about that specific. And I also think there is something along the lines of acceptable criticism, where you say something like, "his policy of XYZ isn't something I'd want here, that would be more in line with a communist country" or something to that affect. A potentially valid criticism. Just like I think some of the things happening can be compared to some of the things happening in Nazi germany (though I tend to personally avoid the comparison bc the mere mention is often still inflammatory and people won't listen from there, no matter how valid).

My issue was saying "no daylight" as if they are the same across the board. It was silly.

 

[Moral]

I think the big difference between your view and mine is that you think because someone is a moderate they are more susceptible to the siren call of privilege. On the other hand I think the lesson of history is that most people are susceptible to those failings regardless of economic ideology.

Every socialist country in history has fallen prey to the same issue. Same with feudal/monarchical societies. Same with capitalist societies. In fact socialist societies have fallen prey to this 100% of the time. Full stop. There is no socialist economy that does not have an elite group creating stratification between the haves and the have nots. There is no socialist country that did not have the privileged few exploiting the masses. It does the worst job at combatting these human foibles.

It is NOT the economic system that is the failing. It is human avarice and power dynamics. So instead of throwing out the economic model, maybe we solve…you know…the actual problem.

Term limits. Bans on insider trading. Bans on self dealing. New laws to combat Citizens United. Get money out of politics one way or the other. Re-establish the role of Congress. Those are the things that matter if you actually want to change.

The US is a mixed economy. I am not advocating for becoming a socialist economy, I am advocating for the mix of regulated capitalism to be more regulated. I believe regulation is that we are missing. Free market operates as unregulated capitalism which has become crony capitalism or oligarchy.

We can both say we are capitalists; I just favor regulations that benefit 99% of people over the people that have amassed the most capital and in turn the most influence.

 

[gohawks50]

The answer lies here:

View attachment 1385309

I haven't read the book, so I looked up what Huntington means by the "American Creed." From what I can tell, he identifies American political values such as liberty, equality, individualism, democracy, constitutionalism, and the rule of law. He also apparently argues that a recurring theme in American history is the gap between those ideals and how American institutions actually behave, with reform movements periodically arising to try to close that gap.

If that's what you mean by American civic values, which of those values do you think the new progressives don't share?

 

[alaskanseminole]

going back to what initiated these comments (the tweet of parade or ceremony or whatever that is)...

why do you think their participation in that means they don't believe in those things? i have no idea what any of that was or means, but plenty of immigrant groups have religious ceremonies and parades. this has happened in this country for going on two centuries now.

maybe you dont' think it's relevant, but it is certainly true that these concerns have been made about every religious minority immigrant group - that they refused to assimilate, that their allegiance would be with the ethnicity or religious leaders instead of the US.

maybe that was a terrorist recruitment parade. or maybe it was just a muslim holiday or ceremony. i wouldn't know (and it doesn't seem like anyone else here does either).

I spent 522 days deployed to the ME. During that time I was privy to a lot of terrorist group manifestos, TTPs, recruitment videos, training camps, etc. I've made no secret I was 100% on board with OEF (just not OIF). Some of the footage I watched from terrorist training camps was pretty dadgum terrifying (pun intended). Recruitment for mid-level operatives was often as simple as, "Hey, want to kill Americans?"

So I'll freely admit that probably biases me more than the average person when discussions turn to political Islam or Islamist organizations.

That said, I also agree with your last paragraph. I have no idea what that gathering in the video actually was. It could've been a Muslim holiday or community celebration (sadly, the MAGAs won't admit that here). It could've been something else. I simply don't know, and I'm not willing to assign motives based on a 20-second clip or to Al-Sayed despite what's being claimed against him.

My point wasn't that this group is sinister. It was that assimilation matters, and because of my background, organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood naturally pop into the back of my mind. That's my baggage, not my conclusion. Hopefully that makes sense. Unlike many, I do try to own my bias and question it.

 

[Bro D]

Then he might also get rid of Stephanie White

 

[alaskanseminole]

I agree with the constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, and literally seeing yourself as an American first. The Christmas tradition is a religious one and although I love celebrating it, I don't consider it an American tradition. There have always been Americans that didn't celebrate Christmas due to their own religious beliefs.

Which of these new crop of progressives do you feel don't embrace the constitutional system, the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, equal rights, or seeing themselves as an American first?

Fair point on Christmas. Thanksgiving probably would've been a better example (the kiddos said, Christmas, though). Anyhoot, my point wasn't that everyone has to celebrate Christmas. It was I think it's healthy to embrace at least some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home while still keeping your own.

As for your question, I wasn't specifically talking about Abdul. I was answering what I meant by "American civic values." Those are the ideals I think anyone (immigrant or native-born) should aspire to.

That said, I'm not a fan of some of the newer progressive voices like members of "the Squad" or the new NYC mayor. And just to be clear, I'm a former Republican who refused to drink the MAGA Kool-Aid. That didn't magically turn me into a Democrat or progressive. I still disagree with plenty of the left.

 

[gohawks50]

Fair point on Christmas. Thanksgiving probably would've been a better example (the kiddos said, Christmas, though). Anyhoot, my point wasn't that everyone has to celebrate Christmas. It was I think it's healthy to embrace at least some of the traditions of the country you've chosen to call home while still keeping your own.

As for your question, I wasn't specifically talking about Abdul. I was answering what I meant by "American civic values." Those are the ideals I think anyone (immigrant or native-born) should aspire to.

That said, I'm not a fan of some of the newer progressive voices like members of "the Squad" or the new NYC mayor. And just to be clear, I'm a former Republican who refused to drink the MAGA Kool-Aid. That didn't magically turn me into a Democrat or progressive. I still disagree with plenty of the left.

I knew you were a conservative that left Trump's party. I have no problem with people not being a fan of progressives for policy reasons, but I do have a problem when people (not necessarily you) frame them as somehow not being American enough. Yes, their ideas are different from the status quo, but that doesn't mean they don't value American civics and culture.

 

[tarheelbybirth1]

Take post-WWII Japan as an example. They abandoned military expansion and instead became an economic powerhouse, with companies like Toyota, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, and dozens of others establishing a YUGE presence here in the US. That's an example of influence through economics. My concern with any ideological movement, though...whether it's the Muslim Brotherhood, Christian nationalism, or anything else isn't economic influence...it's influence aimed at fundamentally changing our constitutional or civic framework over generations.

Do I think America is on the verge of becoming an Islamic state? No. We have strong constitutional protections, just saying it crosses my mind and I wouldn't completely dismiss long-term ideological movements simply because they're patient. That's all.

We're far, far, FAR closer to fascism than we are to sharia and they are already bending - if not shattering - constitutional norms. And those numpties comprise a full 25% of the population, if not more. Muslims make up about 3% of the population and the extremists in that group are negligible. The idea that they could turn the US is ridiculous - even if the population tripled. What happens if the MAGA population triples or even doubles? Might want to focus on the actual threat rather than be distracted by something that just can't happen.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I knew you were a conservative that left Trump's party. I have no problem with people not being a fan of progressives for policy reasons, but I do have a problem when people (not necessarily you) frame them as somehow not being American enough. Yes, their ideas are different from the status quo, but that doesn't mean they don't value American civics and culture.

Okay, I need another word than fair, but that's a "fair" distinction nonetheless and I actually agree with it. I don't think someone is "less American" simply because they're progressive or advocate for policies I strongly disagree with.

My comments were less about ideology and more about whether any movement...left, right, religious, or otherwise...places allegiance to an ideology above our constitutional framework or a shared American identity. Those aren't the same thing. Notice I'm pretty vocal about Christian Nationalism and the weaponization of the Bible and I'm a Christian for Pete's sake!

But as an example I'm not a fan of some members of the Squad or the new NYC mayor because of their policy positions and, at times, some of their rhetoric. But, unlike the MAGAs, I wouldn't just say they're somehow "not American."

Anyhoot, I sincerely appreciate the conversation. After the last few days on HROTe, I was honestly starting to wonder if it was even possible to have an adult conversation around here.

 

[Aardvark86]

I haven't read the book, so I looked up what Huntington means by the "American Creed." From what I can tell, he identifies American political values such as liberty, equality, individualism, democracy, constitutionalism, and the rule of law. He also apparently argues that a recurring theme in American history is the gap between those ideals and how American institutions actually behave, with reform movements periodically arising to try to close that gap.

If that's what you mean by American civic values, which of those values do you think the new progressives don't share?

Yes, it is what I mean (in substantial part, though a couple of the summary words don't 'quite' capture things perfectly), and as is plain on its face and as huntington describes extensively, these values are inherently in tension with one another, arguably even to the point of irreconcilability.

I absolutely think progressives share these values when it comes to their approach to civic participation, at least to the point that they don't affirmatively "reject" any of them. (Full disclosure though, there have been a few situations in the last few years where I have asked myself whether i think that continues to be true.) But their version of the "right mix and balance" is pretty dramatically different than mine (and in some cases maybe even pretty dramatically different than their own historical antecedents), and leads to some policy choices that are even more dramatically different than my preferred ones. So as i suggested when I entered the thread, I have zero problem with their political participation, or with Americans electing them to run on behalf of a party, or even with americans electing them to office. It's very much healthy, and candidly, I am annoyed with the "unamerican" trope when applied to either side because it's so historically blind and short sighted. But...it's a manifestation of the ways we sometimes get through our periods of "Creedal passion" as described by SPH.

Though the end of the book has some cold war baggage that imo falls very flat, I personally view it as one of the most important books I have ever read, and it keeps me calm as a "long" while the "shorts" are flailing around in times like this. And, fwiw, the current era we're living through fits damn-near perfectly on the historical cycle schedule he otherwise illustrates in the book. Almost eerily so.

 

[alaskanseminole]

We're far, far, FAR closer to fascism than we are to sharia and they are already bending - if not shattering - constitutional norms. And those numpties comprise a full 25% of the population, if not more. Muslims make up about 3% of the population and the extremists in that group are negligible. The idea that they could turn the US is ridiculous - even if the population tripled. What happens if the MAGA population triples or even doubles? Might want to focus on the actual threat rather than be distracted by something that just can't happen.

I was wondering when you'd chime in, Mr. Retired.

That said, I don't think we're really disagreeing. If we're talking about actual, present-day threats to our constitutional system, you should already know I'm much more concerned about MAGA authoritarianism than some imminent Islamist takeover.

My comments in this thread were mostly notional....and people asked follow-up questions that I attempted to answer and it just kinda grew from there. I haven't taken my eye off the prize.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

The US is a mixed economy. I am not advocating for becoming a socialist economy, I am advocating for the mix of regulated capitalism to be more regulated. I believe regulation is that we are missing. Free market operates as unregulated capitalism which has become crony capitalism or oligarchy.

We can both say we are capitalists; I just favor regulations that benefit 99% of people over the people that have amassed the most capital and in turn the most influence.

Yeah I wasn’t trying to imply you were that far to the left, I see you as a progressive who favors social programs and regulation. I favor regulation against the worst impulses of human behavior as well and some social programs (like Medicare for all).

I think the big issue is that some of the leaders of the DSA movement are in favor of dismantling the actual economic underpinnings of our society. This creates a brand perception issue that worries me because the GOP is going to spend gobs of money making sure progressives get labeled with the most radical ideas in the DSA platform.