i'd love to know the details about all the this supposed investment, but i know that's only coming if you find some other tweet to copy and paste
Where are all the fiscal conservatives?
- Thread starter Rastafarian
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i'd love to know the details about all the this supposed investment, but i know that's only coming if you find some other tweet to copy and paste
I don't even think it makes sense to talk about 2 years ago. You have to admit though that it is kind of funny that you guys like to bring up Biden and trump comparisons, but somehow want to move past or rationalize trump vs Biden years (2017-2024). Yea I know all the reasons and I know the reasons why gas is high now. But, if we're going to pick on day for comparing prices I.e. biden's last day, we should also do the same with Trump.
I'm not defending Trump. Like I said I know why gas prices and other prices as well are high now - IRAN - and that falls on one man Trump.
you are 100% right in my view. we should cut out all the rationalizing for why deficits are high. Just set a budget equal to projected tax revenues and stick to it. You want money for a bill outside the budget then you identify a "pay for". should be easy -----but been tried before and failed.
By the way, forgiving any body's credit card debt, or any other loan also would go back into the economy....pay off my current loans and I promise to go spend that money.
Yes you are defending Trump if you know these things yet you perpetuate them anyway. You can't ignore the reasons for the price of gas in June 2022 and pretend like this is a both sides argument, when one president did not create the conditions for the spike and the other was solely responsible. Plus, one man was elected based on his fake promises. You're trying too hard.
well I guess it depends on your definition of fiscally responsible...the debt went up almost 10 trillion during the Obama administration. And yes, I know there were reasons.....there always are.
In comparison, Bush 2 debt increase was "only" $5+ trillion.
i'm not defending Trump...like I said, if you want to make fair comparisons take biden's last day, and Trump's last day...that seems reasonable to me.
why is it unfair to discuss the impact of an identifiable action or policy from the trump admin before his entire term is up?
well, it's not unfair, it's totally fair and reasonable. But why is it unfair to compare an identifiable action at the same point in time of a previous administration?
IMO, as much as I probably do it, it's not totally reasonable to compare actions of different Presidents. Circumstances change between and during administrations that impact the success or failure of the President and all of us rationalize the circumstances and argue about which is better or worse - debates which have no conclusion because there are good and bad things in every administration.
Democrats today argue about high prices and bad economy.. It's entirely possible that on Jan 20, 2029, we have the lowest food prices on record, too many jobs, booming stock market and manufacturing bliss. If that happens, folks like dpic (not to pick on him) will post about "yea but in 2026.." It's human nature. That's exactly what folks on the right or center are doing now with Biden's 2022.
and if you can pinpoint the action or policy that caused inflation to skyrocket 6 weeks into biden's presidency, i'd be happy to discuss it
i've asked a number of times, but no one seems to be able to do it beyond cliches
see, just like I posted, there are always reasons.....you like the reasons for inflation during Biden...(.but high inflation during Biden was June 2022, not 6 weeks after Biden's inauguration.)
but you don't like the reason for Trump's inflation - to keep Iran from getting a nuclear weapon.
Others seems to have a different opinion, so the debate with no answer goes on and on.
i don't like the reasons for "biden's inflation"...i recognize that it was the result of a global economic upheaval that began at the end of 2019. and while inflation peaked in june 2022, it began rising in march 2021.
and yes...i have a different opinion on inflation caused by an generational global pandemic than i do for inflation caused by unilateral, whiplash implementation of tariffs and yet another middle east military adventure with no defined end game or exit strategy
Can you cite one example of any meaningful Democrat or “leftist” figure calling Republicans “literal nazis” for wanting work requirements for welfare?
Doge was a complete and utter failure, and it really isn't hard to see why
- Despite a 100% bi-partisan agreement that the Federal Government is bloated, slow as molasses, and generally overfunded, Doge was framed as a "fraudulent" investigation into mostly Democrat led social services. From the start it was framed as "the Democrats are committing fraud" and they were going to root it all out.
- This investigation was led by a tech Billionaire and richest person in the world (ironic), that really thought he could come into something like the Government of the Free World and gut it like Private Equity CEO's do when they acquire new Tech Companies. It doesn't work that way and everyone knew that.
- Turns out, Doge didn't find much or any fraud by the Democrats or by the Federal Government. If they did, there would have been MASSIVE fallout, lawsuits that went to court and won, and tons and tons of people fired and jailed. Instead, Musk just cut things the Trump Administration didn't like- mostly Democrat led Social Services, which just reinforced the fact that it wasn't actually something that would be bi-partisan for our 2 political parties or their followers.
- The left genuinely believes in Social Services in the States and world wide, and truly believes those services help benefit America's influence on the world, and also altruistically is good for the world. Alot of those Social Services were cut in the name of "fraud" which is why alot of citizens and the left hated Doge. If you're going to cut that stuff, do it honestly and just say we don't think we should allocate funds for those things rather than making up bs "fraud" reasons.
- Everyone was fine with the "spirit" of Doge in the sense that getting rid of government bloat and waste, which is a net positive. But it wasn't framed that way- it was led by an untrustworthy person for more than half of the country, who only discovered "fraud" in Democrat led initiatives, and while the American voting populace is fairly stupid, they all realized what Doge actually was pretty quickly.
- Republicans hold all 3 branches of the Government, and the fact Doge "failed" has nothing to do with the Democrats. Its because the Democrats and the Republicans that hold office in the Federal Government knew immediately what it was, and alot of Republican officials also didn't want to get rid of alot of those services and knew Doge was a bunch of BS.
TL;DR: The Department of Government Efficiency is so stupid its named after a meme coin and sounds like its something created from the bad guys in Harry Potter, and didn't accomplish anything because it was inherently political and idiotic in nature and gutted the Federal Government in ZERO ways that were helpful to America or the world, and ultimately achieved very little other than worldwide harm.
Not arguing that. I would say the CWA in 1994 had something to do with that as well. You know, back when the two parties compromised. Let’s not forget that the reason Clinton won was because a republican (gasp!!!!!) raised taxes and Ross Perot tore the party in two.
Also, the internet may have had something to do with that……
Anyway, Obama came into office during the quantitative easing that Bush started and the economy needed. After 4 years he had taken the $1.4T deficits to under 500B. Neither Trump not Biden have done anything remotely close to that.
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There is always a financial crisis that without massive deficits and monitization of said debt would have started a worldwide depression?
That is just silly.
If this administration keeps spending at an unsustainable rate, what comes next? The excuse will be, “We don't have the money.” And then they'll tell the people who spent decades paying into Social Security and Medicare, along with their employers, that the benefits they earned have to be cut because of all the liberal social programs.”
We are being robbed by an Admin full of two bit juvenile thief’s.
It’s easier to hide the billions he’s stealing with such out of control spending.
as I posted, there is always a reason
but for some reason when folks like scrubby or fat piggy point out the pandemic and stimulus programs as a reason for trump deficits, that's different....there's always a reason.
Obama was hardly fiscally responsible. The federal debt doubled during his time as president.
It's difficult to tell when presidents lie during their campaigns vs just failing to achieve the things they promise. I give Obama a lot of credit for saying some things like ending earmarks and getting lobbyists out of Washington but those things never happened. I give him credit for the Simpson-Bowles commission that was supposed to be a bipartisan attempt at fiscal responsibility. Unfortunately none of the recommendations were implemented.
Politicians are elected by promising more free stuff and they lose elections if they threaten to take stuff away. The current system will never result in fiscal responsibility.
That sounds great but it's pretty much impossible. Revenues are approximately $5.5 trillion but spending is $7.4 trillion. Where do we cut $1.9 trillion?
Mandatory spending (SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest) is already more than what we collect in revenues. That would leave zero for defense, infrastructure, education, food stamps, etc. We can't cut interest and no politician is going to vote to cut Medicare & SS. Dems want to tax the rich and we might be able to generate an additional $100 billion (Biden's plan was $50 billion). The problem is they want to spend all of that and much more on more social welfare programs. Look at all the fuss about requiring able bodied people without dependents to work part time in order to qualify for Medicaid.
Look at what happened to the Simpson-Bowles recommendations. NOTHING!
I'd be happy if we could just freeze spending at current levels but that's not happening.
I have mixed feelings about government owning shares of private companies. I don't like the idea in principle but I read It's only been $27b with a third of that going to Intel. I think the shares of U.S. Steel are only to provide veto rights so Nippon can't move production offshore. I think all of these "investments" have been in the interest of national security (quantum computing, steel, nuclear, and rare earth minerals). Would it be better if the government just gave $$$ to these companies and not get anything in return?
The good news is that the government's shares of INTEL are now worth 4x what we paid for them.
If you think 2008 was “always something”, I don’t know that it is worth talking about. As for Trump’s deficits look at his first term before Covid vs what he inherited. There was no “always something” at that point.
During Obama’s 8 years federal spending increases from 3.5T in 2009 to 3.8T in 2016. There were 3 years (2010, 2012, 2013) where yoy spending was actually reduced. Obamas deficit in 2016 was 584B.
By comparison, pre COVID Trump ran deficits up every year to a pre Covid peak of 984B, an increase of 400B in just 3 years. Spending over that time also increased from 3.85T to 4.45T. Double the spending increase from Obama’s 8 years in just 3 years.
Trump was a problem before Covid. That’s why you and Scrubby get called out. Because you are demonstrably wrong.
I know it's a pipe dream. It was tried before and didn't last long. And to the best of my research, its still in effect.......The Statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act of 2010, Title I of H.J.Res. 45, is a public law passed by the 111th United States Congress and signed by US President Barack Obama on February 12, 2010. The act reinstated pay-as-you-go budgeting rules used in Congress from 1990 until 2002, ensuring that most new spending is offset by spending cuts or added revenue elsewhere.
My point in posting is that proponents of both parties (yep, here I go again) talk about fiscal sanity but then can rationalize why, when their party is in power, it's OK just to incorporate deficit spending. We have a law that says you have to "pay as you go", we just ignore it. Like I posted, there's always a reason why it's necessary to overspend....just not when the other party does it.
Not sure that 1.9 trillion needs to be the number, but once you have a number you cut absolutely EVERYTHING by a fixed percentage,... If the pain is felt everywhere, the bitching will fall on deaf ears.
so here's where we disagree...you're trying to bring the debate about deficit spending and the debt down to degrees...trump was worse than Obama...and others will bring up Biden was worse than trump and then we go back and forth debating who was better at deficit spending and who was worse.
OK, without even examining numbers I'll agree 100% with whatever you say about who was worse.
But in return you have to agree that each and every president, whether Republican and Democrat has contributed to the debt. Now if you can point out any President since Bush 2 who has submitted to Congress a proposal for a balanced budget, I'd be open to debate. All of them started off with deficit budget proposals,
In my mind, when you're at $40 trillion debt the debate shifts from whose administration contributed more to the debt to who is going to do something about it.
You might want to actually look at the numbers during his time in office. It’s obvious you haven’t done that.
Agree except we can't cut interest on the debt. I'd be happy if we just froze everything else instead of cutting. But who is going to freeze SS & Medicare?
Of course I did. Debt doubled.
But let's go in a different direction. What's your proposal to reduce the deficit?
The people that bring up Biden being worse than Trump’s first term are absolutely correct. The difference between Obama and Biden (who both came into office at the beginning of a major crisis) is that after the quantitative easing needed to quell the financial crisis, Obama turned off the spigot. Biden turned it up to maximum pressure. At this point, Trump is no better in his second term.
To you point about submitting a balanced budget, I completely agree. That is equally a congressional issue, and just as bipartisan. Hell, I would be thrilled to see any budget submitted. We have been working in CRs for the better part of 20 years now.
Someone mentioned it above. The reason we are at 40T in deficit is that elected officials aren’t there to run the country anymore. They are there to get re elected. Fixing, or even just mitigating, the debt problem requires actions that will get them removed from office. Spending needs to be cut. Taxes need to be raised.
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“Debt doubled”
SMH. I understand why you want to move on. You can look at my response to Ned and address that.
Addressing the debt is like losing weight. People know that eating less (and better) and exercising will help tremendously but they don’t do it because it requires discipline and sacrifice. Same goes for the debt. Spending needs to be cut and taxes need to be raised. Good luck finding a politician to champion that.
You start by balancing the annual budget, and interest on the debt is part of that budget,... Actually paying down the accrued debt becomes a secondary goal.
There is a zero percent chance of that happening and I don't even know if that would be a good idea at this point. We would need a nearly 40% across the board tax increase or a nearly 40% across the board spending reduction or some combination of the two. That would take us straight into a depression. I think the most we could do without destroying the economy is get the deficit down to $1.5 trillion. Baby steps.
To address this growing problem the deficit needs to be pushed to zero,.. Baby steps on the debt.
Your intentions are good but the fallout would be devastating. The hole is just too deep at this point.
The point, Ned, which I think you know and you're just being ******* contrarion like you always are, is that Trump promised to bring prices down, and they have gone up. That is why we're quoting the last day of Biden's time in office. He brought oil prices down. Trump drove them up. It's not that complicated.
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