UK basketball headed towards worst decade in its history

[RunninRichie]

Do you know that the money was sitting there available and he just refused to use it?
Do we actually know that a facility that opened in 2007 was truly in need of replacement outside of Cal openly clamoring for it? As I remember Pitino insisted Rupp need replaced over 30 years ago.

Are you Connie Barnhart by chance? The facility opened in 2009 not 7. Almost 20 years ago. That's a lifetime in college athletics. It's an arms race for a reason.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

Are you Connie Barnhart by chance?

He engaged you in good faith and you reply with that? Cmon man

 

[RunninRichie]

He engaged you in good faith and you reply with that? Cmon man

Just messing with Paul. The guy's devotion to anyone who works for UK is amazing. Mark Stoops, Mark Pope, Mitch Barnhart, John Calipari. Dude is devoted. I'm curious if he works for UKAA in some capacity. On the lair he was still defending Stoops, up until the 41-0 UL game.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

Just messing with Paul. The guy's devotion to anyone who works for UK is amazing. Mark Stoops, Mark Pope, Mitch Barnhart, John Calipari. Dude is devoted. I'm curious if he works for UKAA in some capacity.

I supported Stoops and stand by it. Don’t care who that upsets. Best coach we had in my lifetime. Will be lucky if Stein continues where he left off. So if anything, Paul supporting Stoops is a plus in my mind. These kind of things should always be in house debates anyway, not something to bang anyone over the head with. I actually didn’t frequent the Lair because I knew my support of Stoops wasn’t welcome, frankly.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

I can’t judge his job from the perspective of directives handed to him by a superior. I can only judge, as a fan, how I get he handled the expectations that I have. And he was AD for nearly a quarter century. We had the flurry of Final Fours from 2011-2015. Outside of that? Zero. Titles? One. It doesn’t mean i think he held anyone back per de but I can’t say that’s good at Kentucky. And like I said, his philosophy has created confusion to this very day. In 1999, if you said Kentucky is a basketball school, you’d be greeted with “Yeah, duh. And water is wet.” These days, if you say it people get angry and it starts fights. That’s on Mitch to me. Loss of identify and culture.

You think it is up to the A.D. to publicly declare that football is a lesser priority? How do you think that affects his ability to succeed in football if he were to do that.

I'm actually pretty much with you about the importance of our basketball program but do you really think that would be wise and is something he should have actually done.

I'm not just trying to give you a hard time but what specifically do you think he failed to do for the basketball program short of publicly going haywire over officiating and are there A.D.'s that have done that I'm not aware of?

 

[RunninRichie]

I supported Stoops and stand by it. Don’t care who that upsets. Best coach we had in my lifetime. Will be lucky if Stein continues where he left off. So if anything, Paul supporting Stoops is a plus in my mind. These kind of things should always be in house debates anyway, not something to bang anyone over the head with. I actually didn’t frequent the Lair because I knew my support of Stoops wasn’t welcome, frankly.

That's cool. But when Stoops was showing a clear decline, making poor hires, and puzzling roster decisions. It wasn't really wise to continue supporting him. It's like the Calipari defenders on here. They kept bringing up those final fours. But they kept getting further and further away. Agreeing Stoops is the best UK coach maybe ever, and realizing his time here had ran up. Aren't exclusive.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Just messing with Paul. The guy's devotion to anyone who works for UK is amazing. Mark Stoops, Mark Pope, Mitch Barnhart, John Calipari. Dude is devoted. I'm curious if he works for UKAA in some capacity. On the lair he was still defending Stoops, up until the 41-0 UL game.

I just believe in treating people fairly and not being disingenuous when discussing things with other posters.

 

[RunninRichie]

I just believe in treating people fairly and not being disingenuous when discussing things with other posters.

I'm talking about your devotion to anyone hired by UK. You've never seen a coach or admin you didn't support. You're also not as holy as you think. You lash out and call people negative crybabies and miserbale all the time.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

You think it is up to the A.D. to publicly declare that football is a lesser priority and how do you think that affects his ability to succeed in football if he were to do that.

I'm actually pretty much with you about the importance of our basketball program but do you really think that would be wise and is something he should have actually done.

I'm not just trying to give you a hard time but what specifically do you think he failed to do for the basketball program short of publicly going haywire over officiating and are there A.D.'s that have done that I'm not aware of?

I hear what you’re saying. And no I don’t think there’s anything wrong with acknowledging it’s a basketball school. Of course it can be tactfully stated that obviously football success is important but acknowledge what our flagship is.

As for the point about championships and measuring basketball success, I expected we would get more granular here since my perspective may seem simplistic. Sure, it may seem odd to lay such a measurement at the feet of an administrative position like AD where there is little interaction with basketball operations. We could look at blown calls, missed layups or untimely turnovers and ask how blaming is fair given the small fraction of a gap between success and failure…yet that’s what we do with coaches already. The AD is simply the person responsible for the programs so yes I believe the buck stops there. If we didn’t believe in that philosophy, fine, but then we also can call into question all of the victories, championships and other accomplishments. In my mind, giving credit for the strong accolades is equal to giving demerits for the weak ones or lack thereof.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

That's cool. But when Stoops was showing a clear decline, making poor hires, and puzzling roster decisions. It wasn't really wise to continue supporting him. It's like the Calipari defenders on here. They kept bringing up those final fours. But they kept getting further and further away. Agreeing Stoops is the best UK coach maybe ever, and realizing his time here had ran up. Aren't exclusive.

You always want to change the subject to Stoops.

I do not regret the stance I took in any way. To have fired him prior to the completion of last season was simply not logical or fair and he absolutely deserved the opportunity to try to turn things around. I was for letting things play out and it was not clear how we should proceed even heading into the last two games. I made zero complaints about how it was handled following that finish to the season.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

I'm talking about your devotion to anyone hired by UK. You've never seen a coach or admin you didn't support. You're also not as holy as you think. You lash out and call people negative crybabies and miserbale all the time.

This is false. I definitely wanted Curry ,Joker, Mumme ,Sutton and BCG out and I think it was the right time when Cal and Tubby were basically pushed out. I do not call people those things all the time, only when they are acting like miserable negative crybabys.

As far as admin I couldn't stand David Roselle and it was obvious Larry Ivey was not the right guy.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

That's cool. But when Stoops was showing a clear decline, making poor hires, and puzzling roster decisions. It wasn't really wise to continue supporting him. It's like the Calipari defenders on here. They kept bringing up those final fours. But they kept getting further and further away. Agreeing Stoops is the best UK coach maybe ever, and realizing his time here had ran up. Aren't exclusive.

I’ll point out that many people who hated Cal and were absolutely certain that anyone would be better than Cal are now saying the same thing about the next guy. So, I don’t think think that’s a good parallel. As for Stoops, when I look at the history of the program, I can’t call even his late career shortcomings “failures” in the broad sense historically. He outperformed expectations at Kentucky by such a degree that a new standard upon his shoulders was built. He failed to live up to a new mythical standard and lost his job — fans became bored with the level of “mediocrity” that came about from him. However, for many longtime fans like me, we understood the context of that “mediocrity” to be better than what we’d mostly had before. When people bad mouth Stoops I usually lose some degree of respect for their sports knowledge. I either assume they are too young to know the history, too eager to consider the ramifications or too impulsive to care. I’ll forever be a Stoops supporter — 24 years of zero missed games and things I never in a million years thought possible happened because of that man, despite all of his flaws.

 

[RunninRichie]

This is false. I definitely wanted Curry ,Joker, Mumme ,Sutton and BCG out and I think it was the right time when Cal and Tubby were basically pushed out. I do not call people those things all the time, only when they are acting like miserable negative crybabys.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[RunninRichie]

I’ll point out that many people who hated Cal and were absolutely certain that anyone would be better than Cal are now saying the same thing about the next guy. So, I don’t think think that’s a good parallel. As for Stoops, when I look at the history of the program, I can’t call even his late career shortcomings “failures” in the broad sense historically. He outperformed expectations at Kentucky by such a degree that a new standard upon his shoulders was built. He failed to live up to a new mythical standard and lost his job — fans became bored with the level of “mediocrity” that came about from him. However, for many longtime fans like me, we understood the context of that “mediocrity” to be better than what we’d mostly had before. When people bad mouth Stoops I usually lose some degree of respect for their sports knowledge. I either assume they are too young to know the history, too eager to consider the ramifications or too impulsive to care. I’ll forever be a Stoops supporter — 24 years of zero missed games and things I never in a million years thought possible happened because of that man, despite all of his flaws.

You were in the "lighting in a bottle" camp. UK has always sucked at football and this guy has won 10 games twice, build the statue. I was in the other camp. Stoops built a solid foundation, lets go and get a guy who can build the house. Hopefully that's Will Stein.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

You were in the "lighting in a bottle" camp. UK has always sucked at football and this guy has won 10 games twice, build the statue. I was in the other camp. Stoops built a solid foundation, lets go and get a guy who can build the house. Hopefully that's Will Stein.

Hopefully it is. But if it isn’t and we wind up being what we were beforehand, some of you won’t be there to apologize for tearing down the best football era we’ve had since before the Beatles came to America. I’m very excited about Stein but there are no guarantees for anything in SEC football. Andy Bernard said it best “I wish there was a way to know these are good times while they are happening.”…or something like that, sure I prolly butchered it.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

I hear what you’re saying. And no I don’t think there’s anything wrong with acknowledging it’s a basketball school. Of course it can be tactfully stated that obviously football success is important but acknowledge what our flagship is.

As for the point about championships and measuring basketball success, I expected we would get more granular here since my perspective may seem simplistic. Sure, it may seem odd to lay such a measurement at the feet of an administrative position like AD where there is little interaction with basketball operations. We could look at blown calls, missed layups or untimely turnovers and ask how blaming is fair given the small fraction of a gap between success and failure…yet that’s what we do with coaches already. The AD is simply the person responsible for the programs so yes I believe the buck stops there. If we didn’t believe in that philosophy, fine, but then we also can call into question all of the victories, championships and other accomplishments. In my mind, giving credit for the strong accolades is equal to giving demerits for the weak ones or lack thereof.

I do not think it would be wise to state that publicly as A.D. and I do not believe that would actually help basketball anyway.

The only thing the A.D. can truly control in this regard is to fire and hire coaches and provide the financial support and do things like securing quality schedules and avoiding penalties for rules infractions. I just do not see that he was too slow in pulling that trigger and I think there has always been adequate support and quality scheduling to reach that level.

 

[RunninRichie]

Hopefully it is. But if it isn’t and we wind up being what we were beforehand, some of you won’t be there to apologize for tearing down the best football era we’ve had since before the Beatles came to America. I’m very excited about Stein but there are no guarantees for anything in SEC football. Andy Bernard said it best “I was there was a way to know these are good times while they are happening.”

Stoops wasn't the guy in the NIL era. That was obvious. If it was still pre-NIL, you'd have an argument.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

I do not think it would be wise to state that publicly as A.D. and I do not believe that would actually help basketball anyway.

The only thing the A.D. can truly control in this regard is to fire and hire coaches and provide the financial support and do things like quality schedules. I just do not see that he was too slow in pulling that trigger and I think there has always been adequate support and quality scheduling to reach that level.

I get what you’re saying, I just don’t see the problem with it. I see express statement of identity and focus as a net positive. It’s just a matter of perspective and mine is definitely the minority view. Don’t think anyone pre-Mitch would have even second-guessed it.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

Stoops wasn't the guy in the NIL era. That was obvious. If it was still pre-NIL, you'd have an argument.

No, I don’t think you have an example of a Kentucky coach in the last 50 years to point to as frame of reference to say even late stage Stoops underperformed.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

You were in the "lighting in a bottle" camp. UK has always sucked at football and this guy has won 10 games twice, build the statue. I was in the other camp. Stoops built a solid foundation, lets go and get a guy who can build the house. Hopefully that's Will Stein.

I never said anything about building a statue and never suggested he should be coach indefinitely regardless of results. I really only advocated for letting the season play out before making a decision.

I hope Stein is the guy to get us back to that 10 win level or even more. He has shown good reason to be very positive about his coming tenure but only time will tell and it is far from guaranteed.

 

[RunninRichie]

No, I don’t think you have an example of a Kentucky coach in the last 50 years to point to as frame of reference to say even late stage Stoops underperformed.

If UK football is ever going to be good. Going 2-6 in the SEC has to be seen as a failure.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

I get what you’re saying, I just don’t see the problem with it. I see express statement of identity and focus as a net positive. It’s just a matter of perspective and mine is definitely the minority view. Don’t think anyone pre-Mitch would have even second-guessed it.

I'm actually with you on thinking it should be our number one priority but I see no positive and only negative in making it a public declaration.

The only reason anyone might second guess it at all is because we did have some relatively successful FB seasons under Mitch but I suspect the amount of people even second guessing it is very small.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

If UK football is ever going to be good. Going 2-6 in the SEC has to be seen as a failure.

Sure. If you’re using something other than Kentucky football as the reference point. I hope for the best, man. I really do —- but I’m not sure more than 2 wins in the SEC this year is likely. And I won’t be calling it a failure simply for that — the SEC in football is no joke. And many of those other conference programs have many many millions of dollars invested in their programs long before we were gaining steam.

 

[RunninRichie]

Sure. If you’re using something other than Kentucky football as the reference point. I hope for the best, man. I really do —- but I’m not sure more than 2 wins in the SEC this year is likely. And I won’t be calling it a failure simply for that — the SEC in football is no joke. And many of those other conference programs have many many millions of dollars invested in their programs long before we were gaining steam.

You're ignoring my point. If UK football is to be better than the UK football of the past. That has to stop being a benchmark.

 

[Im The Village Idiot]

You're ignoring my point. If UK football is to be better than the UK football of the past. That has to stop being a benchmark.

No. I’m hearing your point. I’m bringing you to the table and pointing out that, while you are correct, you’re asking Kentucky football to be something other than what Kentucky football has been. That’s actually my very point. It’s kind of like when Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan came to TNA to improve their product for them. Their lack of knowledge destroyed what the product was because they didn’t know the history or the culture of the brand. According to Bischoff and Hogan, the TNA brand didn’t have the market share of WWE so it needed fixed. That destroyed it. To me, this could be the parallel when it comes to Kentucky football. A bunch of young fans that don’t know the history or people who only started watching when KSR started promoting football heavily around 2015 or 2016 — these people always have the best ideas for Kentucky football and if it doesn’t work, who cares? It’s just like basketball to them…they don’t see the difference cause they didn’t live through the 2-win seasons or thinking Guy Morriss was an alien for winning 7 games. Just isn’t the same.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

You're ignoring my point. If UK football is to be better than the UK football of the past. That has to stop being a benchmark.

I don't think that has ever been considered a bench mark of success. It has far too often been the reality of the situation though.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

Are you Connie Barnhart by chance? The facility opened in 2009 not 7. Almost 20 years ago. That's a lifetime in college athletics. It's an arms race for a reason.

You are arguing opposite of your own point with this date. It also conflicts with what I looked up.

Joe Craft Center

Kroger Field is the home of the Kentucky Wildcats.

ukathletics.com

Joe Craft Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did I miss Kansas and Duke's opening of sparkling new arenas?

 

[TheBlueMist]

Do you think it was his responsibility to ignore the directives given to him by his employer? I don't think it was his sole decision to focus on bringing up other sports as it was reported from the time he arrived that these were his directives from the UK administration.

I don't see where he did anything to hold basketball back. I think to have fired Tubby or Cal prior to the point they left was not reasonable and if he had been allowed to hire Cal when he originally wanted to you do not have the BCG debacle.

What exactly do you think was in his power that he should have done to win more championships?

While not a "firing," what's your opinion of Mitch offering Cal a lifetime contract to counter UCLA's interest?

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

While not a "firing," what's your opinion of Mitch offering Cal a lifetime contract to counter UCLA's interest?

It was not actually a lifetime contract. It was a 10 year extension. While I would have preferred it to have been a bit shorter I have no knowledge of how negotiations went and I do not really think it was all that out of line with what other schools would have done in a similar situation.

Iowa St just signed T.J. Otzelberger to a 10 year extension for example and his success has not been in the same world as Cal's was at that point.

 

[Beatle Bum]

If you are you going to blame him for failures you must give him credit for successes.

The way I heard it was he wanted to hire Cal and was blocked by Eli as told by Eli himself prior to the BCG hire.

You've listed 5 good hires vs. 2 bad hires here. I seriously doubt whether any of us have any clue about what quality of hire the swim coach was. Allegations mean nothing without verifiable facts. Was it actually confirmed the swim coach was guilty of something? I didn't pay much attention to that controversy.

I would say Rich Brooks had a massive amount to do with the Joker hire and BCG would have never been hired had Mitch not been blocked from hiring Cal at that point.

Every AD who lasts makes bad hires. No one here seems to care the J Batt made a horrific basketball coach hire at G Tech. It’s impossible to make only good fit hires in such a competitive environment.

 

[Beatle Bum]

You got a link for that Eli quote? Not doubting you, just don’t remember that and would like to see it. Thanks.

Learn to Google.

And regardless of what your mommy says, Eli has been head and shoulders better for UK than Todd.