Miteo

[RedTeamUpstream94]

Yeah - I’m not really following what his or Bob’s arguments even are. Maybe if Powers played on a team like Geo’s he would’ve forced the issue even more (alla Simpson). That team had very few options outside of Sanders and Freeman cleaning things up inside. There’s really no basis for what he hypothesized. It’s not that Powers player a Montez / J Young style force game to prove himself driving into traffic. He created space for himself to get his midrange off (similar to Geo) - he just didn’t hit it efficiently and seemed to fade away rather than embrace contact (hence only 9 trips to the line all season).

As for Bob’s comments - those are even more baffling to me. Geo wasn’t efficient. That’s not why he was a “RU great”. The premise that it should be viewed as a positive in any way that Powers only made 3% less of his shots as a frosh than a “RU great” makes no sense at all. Efficiency isn’t at all why Geo was great.

The bottom line is 34.9% shooting from the floor stands out as very bad on a national level for someone who is not an elite defender (never mind being simply servicable) and doesn’t get to the FT line. Out of 2,379 D1 players to log 15.7 mpg or more, only 92 of them (under 4% made a lower percentage). Of those 92, most were on the court for their D specifically and/or got to the FT line a heck of a lot more than 19 attempts. Only 9 of those 92 players played on high major teams. There’s no way to frame this level of efficiency as anything other than poor. Again, that doesn’t mean it can’t and won’t improve - it’s just not where he left off last year and suggesting otherwise is just silly.

even more baffling - I haven’t tracked your comments - but I’ve been saying throughout (and did si during the season) that I’m big on powers potential

but my point is that - let’s be real - the only thing powers has done is show some GLIMPSES of potential. He really did not actually DO anything last year. So any discussion relative to geo-as-a-freshman is just pointless.

could he eventually be better …. Sure . Never said otherwise

Just a weird argument . Woulda , coulda, if/ then, perhaps, maybe.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

even more baffling - I haven’t tracked your comments - but I’ve been saying throughout (and did si during the season) that I’m big on powers potential

but my point is that - let’s be real - the only thing powers has done is show some GLIMPSES of potential. He really did not actually DO anything last year. So any discussion relative to geo-as-a-freshman is just pointless.

could he eventually be better …. Sure . Never said otherwise

Just a weird argument . Woulda , coulda, if/ then, perhaps, maybe.

The comparisons probably come from Powers shot selection. He takes a lot of midrange Geo style mid range jumpers and some of those step back style 3s. Being able to get those shots off, I guess, says “something” from the standpoint of possibly being helpful for a team that struggles to find wide open shooters. But 34.9% shooting is awful when 56% of your attempts are not 3s any way you want to look at it. Considering he had very few shot attempts taken off the board due to drawing fouls it’s even more ugly.

 

[seansherm]

The only thing remotely similar about the 2 of them at this point are the style of shots they took.This alone in a vaccuum says absolutely nothing about Powers future potential (good or bad).

He demonstrated nothing whatsoever to suggest as someone put it “Geo only better”. He shot 3% lower than Geo overall, 3.5% lower from 3 (with an identical portion of his attempts from long range), and got to the FT line far less often per min played. Concluding that he would’ve been more efficient if he played more because he wouldn’t have forcing thing is an assumption based, quite literally, on nothing. If he played better D last year he would’ve played more. The competion sucked and yet he still only earned 15 mpg. That’s the bottom line. He was highly inefficent as a scorer, much less so overall than Geo whose strength wasn’t efficiency to begin with. And yes - those metrics combine to qualify for “much” worse even of one wants to say 3% overall isn’t meaningful (which isn’t even true) but when you factor in that one guy was also better from 3 and took more than 3 times as many FTs (65 vs 19), it’s certainly significant.

Geo was huge when it came to be clutch for us hitting big shot after big shot. There’s no evidence that Powers is going to have a nack for doing this (nothing to point to over any other player). And your really insulting Geo by implying that Powers D was similar except that the surrounding cast was worse. Thats simply garbage. Geo came in and beat out a veteran incumbent guard in Mike Williams who had averaged over 26 mpg for Pike the year before despite playing with 2 good guard defenders in Corey and Nigel. Williams time went down to 23 mpg, much of which he played with Geo in a 3 guard line up because Geo earned his minutes that season on both ends. There may not have been guard depth but Pike had other line up options. He had Eugene and Thiam to share minutes with Freeman and the Dourson / Duke combo at the 5. Just like Pike could’ve used Powers more at the 3 with such few options at forward. His D stunk - he didn’t earn it. Plain and simple. You really have to twist things in a pretzel to make it out to be more than this. That doesn’t mean he won’t turn things around and have a better year this season. But that’s what last season was regardless of what Powers develops into.

Nobody said Powers was good last year. He wasn't. Geo wasn't actually "good" either his freshman year. He had a hell of a consistent career here, and yes, is known for hitting some big shots. All the credit in the world for that.
Geo beating out Mike Williams - who wasn't good either, never shot 40% from the field or 32% from 3. He just played hard. Williams still played plenty. At the 1-3 for that team he could play Corey, Geo, Mike, and maybe Issa, that was it. Everyone else a 4 or 5. Last year we had Tariq, JMike, Lino, Darren, Zrno, and Powers.

But let's look at each from February on, where they should have started to settle in as freshman. Geo played 266 minutes, Powers 209 Feb on. Geo took 85 shots Feb on and shot 36.4% (Geo also shot 32% in January). Powers took 79 shots Feb on and shot 40.5%. Geo from three was 38.6%, just ahead of Powers 37.5%. Geo had 11 assists and 11 turnovers in that time 1to1. Powers was 20 to 14, 1to1.43. Geo had 16 rebounds, Powers 25.
Geo freshman year, stat wise was heavily skewed toward the OOC.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Nobody said Powers was good last year. He wasn't. Geo wasn't actually "good" either his freshman year. He had a hell of a consistent career here, and yes, is known for hitting some big shots. All the credit in the world for that.
Geo beating out Mike Williams - who wasn't good either, never shot 40% from the field or 32% from 3. He just played hard. Williams still played plenty. At the 1-3 for that team he could play Corey, Geo, Mike, and maybe Issa, that was it. Everyone else a 4 or 5. Last year we had Tariq, JMike, Lino, Darren, Zrno, and Powers.

But let's look at each from February on, where they should have started to settle in as freshman. Geo played 266 minutes, Powers 209 Feb on. Geo took 85 shots Feb on and shot 36.4% (Geo also shot 32% in January). Powers took 79 shots Feb on and shot 40.5%. Geo from three was 38.6%, just ahead of Powers 37.5%. Geo had 11 assists and 11 turnovers in that time 1to1. Powers was 20 to 14, 1to1.43. Geo had 16 rebounds, Powers 25.
Geo freshman year, stat wise was heavily skewed toward the OOC.

Your really cherry picking there referencing February. Powers had 2 good games on 2/3 and 2/7 before basically flaming out. He was only 32.8% from the field overall the rest of the way after that Nebraska game (our final 10 games). Yes - my data is cherry picking too, but it was only intended to expose how random your choice of isolating “from Feb on was”. Power’s “progress” was primarily isolated to two can’t miss games that happened to occur back to back. He had a couple others efficient games sprinkled in more randomly. In total - 9 of 29 games where he shot better than 33.3% overall whole season). In the last 10 games was also 33.3% from 3 so a little better than his season average there but that was mostly a result of one game where he hit 3 threes. He was actually 23% from 3 in the other 9 games to close out the season. So the point is - he was consistently up and down vs. some conclusion that there was steady progress from Feb forward. Lino was the only one with steady progress in my opinion.

 

[MadRU]

 

[seansherm]

Your really cherry picking there referencing February. Powers had 2 good games on 2/3 and 2/7 before basically flaming out. He was only 32.8% from the field overall the rest of the way after that Nebraska game (our final 10 games). Yes - my data is cherry picking too, but it was only intended to expose how random your choice of isolating “from Feb on was”. Power’s “progress” was primarily isolated to two can’t miss games that happened to occur back to back. He had a couple others efficient games sprinkled in more randomly. In total - 9 of 29 games where he shot better than 33.3% overall whole season). In the last 10 games was also 33.3% from 3 so a little better than his season average there but that was mostly a result of one game where he hit 3 threes. He was actually 23% from 3 in the other 9 games to close out the season. So the point is - he was consistently up and down vs. some conclusion that there was steady progress from Feb forward. Lino was the only one with steady progress in my opinion.

I picked a time where a freshman typically settles in to a conference schedule. It wasn't cherry picking by game as you are, and only mentioning the shooting. Just look at Big Ten in total:
Powers- 389 minutes, 36.5% fg, 35.1% 3fg, 43 boards, 38 assists, 10 steals, 3 blocks, 26 TO - 157 total pts
Geo - 630 minutes, 34.3% fg, 36.5% 3fg, 35 boards, 31 assists, 17 steals, 8 blocks, 28 TO - 202 total pts

Yes, Lino did progress throughout adding to the playing comp for Powers.

This is a pointless convo, we probably don't change each other's minds.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Also Sean - if anything, I’d say the data suggests that the reverse argument of your original hypothesis is just as likely if not moreso to be true based on Geo’s frosh game log. His numbers suggest that his efficiency took a hit in a chunk small of scattered games where a coach might, in a situation where more options existed, have subbed a frosh out to calm him down. Instead - Geo’s overall efficiency includes a handful of games where he was allowed to go 1-11, 1-9, 1-9, 1-8, 1-7, 1-6, 0-5. That 7 game block of 6 for 55 is baked into his overall 38% shooting percentage which means he had to have been much more efficient on average the rest of the time (other 24 or so games).

There’s also something to be said for having a big game on a day your team gets a big win which Geo did as a frosh vs Indiana in the BIG tourney. And the Iowa and SHU game. Kaden, in comparison, didn’t score more than a few points in any game we won last season. And several of his best games were blow out losses for us.

 

[RedTeamUpstream94]

that poor horse is getting by pounded in this thread

 

[RedTeamUpstream94]

There’s also something to be said for having a big game on a day your team gets a big win which Geo did as a frosh vs Indiana in the BIG tourney. And the Iowa and SHU game. Kaden, in comparison, didn’t score more than a few points in any game we won last season. And several of his best games were blow out losses for us.

In others words - the eye test I was referring to.

 

[seansherm]

Also Sean - if anything, I’d say the data suggests that the reverse argument of your original hypothesis is just as likely if not moreso to be true based on Geo’s frosh game log. His numbers suggest that his efficiency took a hit in a chunk small of scattered games where a coach might, in a situation where more options existed, have subbed a frosh out to calm him down. Instead - Geo’s overall efficiency includes a handful of games where he was allowed to go 1-11, 1-9, 1-9, 1-8, 1-7, 1-6, 0-5. That 7 game block of 6 for 55 is baked into his overall 38% shooting percentage which means he had to have been much more efficient on average the rest of the time (other 24 or so games).

There’s also something to be said for having a big game on a day your team gets a big win which Geo did as a frosh vs Indiana in the BIG tourney. And the Iowa and SHU game. Kaden, in comparison, didn’t score more than a few points in any game we won last season. And several of his best games were blow out losses for us.

I said I was out of this!
You are back to cherry picking individual games. In conference games, the tournament included, Geo shot 40% or better 6 times. Powers did it 8 times. We don't get to cherry pick. Geo played great, er shot great, those two tournament games, and thats pretty much all you're basing the season on. That's fine, its not right, but its fine.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I said I was out of this!
You are back to cherry picking individual games. In conference games, the tournament included, Geo shot 40% or better 6 times. Powers did it 8 times. We don't get to cherry pick. Geo played great, er shot great, those two tournament games, and thats pretty much all you're basing the season on. That's fine, its not right, but its fine.

Sorry - you don’t get to end by stating inaccurate facts about Geo’s frosh numbers. I’m not sure where you took the data from but Geo actually shot 50% or better 10 times in his frosh season and 4 of those games were against Purdue (twice), Indiana and Iowa (we went 2-2 and lost 2 tough ones to a very good Purdue team). He was over 40% in almost half the games he played in (14 out of 29). And while his 38.5% in games we won like SHU didn’t meet your arbitrary 40% cut off, his 5 of 6 from the FT line certainly push him over on an adjusted basis. How can you ignore FTs when the player your advocating for relatively took only 19 of them all season (Geo attempted almost a third of his season attempt total in the SHU game alone). This is important because as 77 pointed out - he doesn’t have to beat out Geo, he’s up against a much better player at drawing FTs in Tariq who was also notably more efficient than him last year.

 

[seansherm]

Sorry - you don’t get to end by stating inaccurate facts about Geo’s frosh numbers. I’m not sure where you took the data from but Geo actually shot 50% or better 10 times in his frosh season and 4 of those games were against Purdue (twice), Indiana and Iowa (we went 2-2 and lost 2 tough ones to a very good Purdue team). He was over 40% in almost half the games he played in (14 out of 29). And while his 38.5% in games we won like SHU didn’t meet your arbitrary 40% cut off, his 5 of 6 from the FT line certainly push him over on an adjusted basis. How can you ignore FTs when the player your advocating for relatively took only 19 of them all season (Geo attempted almost a third of his season attempt total in the SHU game alone). This is important because as 77 pointed out - he doesn’t have to beat out Geo, he’s up against a much better player at drawing FTs in Tariq who was also notably more efficient than him last year.

Reading is fundamental. I said conference games. I don't care what they did in OOC. The rest is irrelevant.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Just something different to throw out there to think about

1.) I think some of how the front court shakes out will be who can actually a good screen….and be a threat to roll or set another effective screen awagb

Something we lacked a lot in the front court last year

2.) on the same tune….who plays more in the backcourt will depend on how well they learn to get over the screens and not go under them

both were major issues last year …and little things that go into who rewllt can mesh and who can’t …..