Francesca Hong (DSA) for Wisconsin Governor

[hawkeyetraveler]

Your choices are MAGA or Socialist.

Seriously?

God we need a common-sense, centrist, third party for all the normal democrats and republicans.

The Dems had a perfect opportunity to step into the center that the GOP abdicated . And instead they seem to be running way to the left.

This is a mistake.

They might (emphasis on might) win the house in November with this approach. But they will lose it 2 years later if they don’t rebuke the voices who are WAY to the left of the average citizen.

The sad thing is, most of us in the center don’t want a corporate oligarchy, but somehow being a centrist has become synonymous with just that. There is no reason we cannot elect moderates who want more guard rails on corporate influence…except moderates don’t win as many primaries these days.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

The Dems had a perfect opportunity to step into the center that the GOP abdicated . And instead they seem to be running way to the left.

This is a mistake.

They might (emphasis on might) win the house in November with this approach. But they will lose it 2 years later if they don’t rebuke the voices who are WAY to the left of the average citizen.

The sad thing is, most of us in the center don’t want a corporate oligarchy, but somehow being a centrist has become synonymous with just that. There is no reason we cannot elect moderates who want more guard rails on corporate influence…except moderates don’t win as many primaries these days.

The center sucks. The center does very little for regular Americans. We all need to stop fantasizing about the center doing anything for working class Americans. It won't.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

The center sucks. The center does very little for regular Americans. We all need to stop fantasizing about the center doing anything for working class Americans. It won't.

tl;dr careful what you wish for. You aren’t solving the right problem by electing socialists.

I spent 4 years in undergrad studying comparative economic models and did a senior thesis on this exact topic. As part of all that I lived in Russia in the mid nineties for 6 months on an internship where I literally lived through a country transitioning out of socialism. So I think I have a pretty good grounding of the difference between the two models.

Note: I am about to sh*t on socialism, but as you and I have discussed in fairness there are some areas where I think the government should provide services: Medicare for all, defense, roads, education and the like.

There are many reasons why I think socialism sucks as a main economic model, but the big 2 are:

1. Socialism lacks the signaling effects of a free market economy. This is THE critical feature needed for things to work efficiently. If you don’t know what works and what doesn’t based on economic return then you deploy capital inefficiently. This is wasteful. Profit is a great signal. It wasn’t an accident that capitalism won the Cold War. Because it is more efficient, society improves faster. BUT it requires guardrails that we currently lack. There need to be limitations on corporate influence, limitations on monopoly power, limitations on collusion. These guardrails have been discarded bit by bit in recent years. But instead of reinforcing appropriate guardrails, key elements in the DSA seem to want to throw out the entire system. That’s ridiculously STUPID.
2. Humans are motivated by greed and power. Those in power will use power for their own selfish agenda. Being a “socialist” doesn’t change that. In fact it is FAR easier to create an ultra elitist class under socialism than it is in capitalism. See Venezuela, Cuba, USSR, China, and literally every other country that went socialist. Ask the workers in those countries what they think of socialism. Why? Because it is easier to hide your takeover when you control the means of production and the means of communication. We are seeing this with Trump - who has some pretty strong socialist tendencies himself. Just because you think the DSA radicals will be altruistic does not mean that they will be. History is crystal clear on this point.

When you combine these you end up with a society geared to serve the political elite overlords. Capital is wasted on petty projects, innovation stagnates and the smart people take their investments to other countries where they can get a better return.

The right problem to solve is guardrails on special interests. Instead we are just swapping one group of special interests for another less efficient system that still doesn’t have the right guardrails.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

tl;dr careful what you wish for. You aren’t solving the right problem by electing socialists.

I spent 4 years in undergrad studying comparative economic models and did a senior thesis on this exact topic. As part of all that I lived in Russia in the mid nineties for 6 months on an internship where I literally lived through a country transitioning out of socialism. So I think I have a pretty good grounding of the difference between the two models.

Note: I am about to sh*t on socialism, but as you and I have discussed in fairness there are some areas where I think the government should provide services: Medicare for all, defense, roads, education and the like.

There are many reasons why I think socialism sucks as a main economic model, but the big 2 are:

1. Socialism lacks the signaling effects of a free market economy. This is THE critical feature needed for things to work efficiently. If you don’t know what works and what doesn’t based on economic return then you deploy capital inefficiently. This is wasteful. Profit is a great signal. It wasn’t an accident that capitalism won the Cold War. Because it is more efficient, society improves faster. BUT it requires guardrails that we currently lack. There need to be limitations on corporate influence, limitations on monopoly power, limitations on collusion. These guardrails have been discarded bit by bit in recent years. But instead of reinforcing appropriate guardrails, key elements in the DSA seem to want to throw out the entire system. That’s ridiculously STUPID.
2. Humans are motivated by greed and power. Those in power will use power for their own selfish agenda. Being a “socialist” doesn’t change that. In fact it is FAR easier to create an ultra elitist class under socialism than it is in capitalism. See Venezuela, Cuba, USSR, China, and literally every other country that went socialist. Ask the workers in those countries what they think of socialism. Why? Because it is easier to hide your takeover when you control the means of production and the means of communication. We are seeing this with Trump - who has some pretty strong socialist tendencies himself. Just because you think the DSA radicals will be altruistic does not mean that they will be. History is crystal clear on this point.

When you combine these you end up with a society geared to serve the political elite overlords. Capital is wasted on petty projects, innovation stagnates and the smart people take their investments to other countries where they can get a better return.

The right problem to solve is guardrails on special interests. Instead we are just swapping one group of special interests for another less efficient system that still doesn’t have the right guardrails.

What has capitalism given us? An entire generation unable to buy houses? Tens of millions without health insurance? People working until they die?

I would caution you to stop romanticizing capitalism because you don't want to accept reality that a lot of these far left policies you tell me to fear have already been successfully implemented in other others and objectively beat the results of what capitalism can give us. Just look at healthcare.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

I also caution you to stop believing that profit drives efficiency. AI doesn't turn a profit. It only loses money. Yet AI dominates nearly all the growth in the stock market. SpaceX opened with a $150 IPO. It loses money, too. Same with many stocks.

If profit creates efficiency, then under you own argument AI and SpaceX should be some of the worse run industries and businesses on the planet.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

What has capitalism given us? An entire generation unable to buy houses? Tens of millions without health insurance? People working until they die?

I would caution you to stop romanticizing capitalism because you don't want to accept reality that a lot of these far left policies you tell me to fear have already been successfully implemented in other others and objectively beat the results of what capitalism can give us. Just look at healthcare.

What you are talking about is mostly capitalist countries in Western Europe that have guardrails and that fund appropriate social services. There is nothing wrong with that IMO…we might quibble on how far to lean into government provided services or the nature of the guardrails, but that’s a quibble more than a debate.

The problem is the lack of guardrails on corporate interests, not the economic model. So what I’m debating is the merits of the DSA nutbags that want to throw out the better model for a bad one without actually solving the main problem. The ones calling for outright communism, the ones calling to seize all means of production, etc. These ARE leading voices in the DSA getting airtime on mainstream media. Their embrace of a failed model is STUPID. Especially because we lack the guardrails against collusion, grift, etc.

The Dems should disavow it, but instead y’all seem to be embracing it. I’m telling you now it will not work, nor is it a winning message in the long run (you might take the house in Nov because Trump sucks that bad, but you would lose it 2 years later).

3 months ago I could not imagine a world where I wasn’t voting blue this fall. Depending on how it goes in my area I may vote third party . I will not support any candidate that backs Trump nor any candidate that supports the extreme positions of the DSA platform. Hopefully the people on my ballot are saner than the extremes our two parties currently embrace. Now you may say good riddance to those like me, but most Americans are moderate. So before the Dems jump headlong into a socialist agenda they might want to pay attention to moderate reactions to the DSA platform.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

What you are talking about is mostly capitalist countries in Western Europe that have guardrails and that fund appropriate social services. There is nothing wrong with that IMO…we might quibble on how far to lean into government provided services or the nature of the guardrails, but that’s a quibble more than a debate.

The problem is the lack of guardrails on corporate interests, not the economic model. So what I’m debating is the merits of the DSA nutbags that want to throw out the better model for a bad one without actually solving the main problem. The ones calling for outright communism, the ones calling to seize all means of production, etc. These ARE leading voices in the DSA getting airtime on mainstream media. Their embrace of a failed model is STUPID. Especially because we lack the guardrails against collusion, grift, etc.

The Dems should disavow it, but instead y’all seem to be embracing it. I’m telling you now it will not work, nor is it a winning message in the long run (you might take the house in Nov because Trump sucks that bad, but you would lose it 2 years later).

3 months ago I could not imagine a world where I wasn’t voting blue this fall. Depending on how it goes in my area I may vote third party . I will not support any candidate that backs Trump nor any candidate that supports the extreme positions of the DSA platform. Hopefully the people on my ballot are saner than the extremes our two parties currently embrace. Now you may say good riddance to those like me, but most Americans are moderate. So before the Dems jump headlong into a socialist agenda they might want to pay attention to moderate reactions to the DSA platform.

Capitalism gives us less guard rails. That's the point. Just look at citizens united. It gave corporations unlimited money to buy elections and the result is guys like Trump getting in office and then using their power enrich themselves.

If you want more guardrails you should be voting for these leftwing candidates. God knows the Manchins and Romneys of the world won't give you guard rails.

 

[PedMaller]

WTF is this?!

 

[PedMaller]

She gets anxiety being around too many white people (in the very white state of WI)….but is married to a white man. You libtards are something else…

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

Capitalism gives us less guard rails. That's the point. Just look at citizens united. It gave corporations unlimited money to buy elections and the result is guys like Trump getting in office and then using their power enrich themselves.

If you want more guardrails you should be voting for these leftwing candidates. God knows the Manchins and Romneys of the world won't give you guard rails.

But it is not free market “capitalism” removing the guard rails. It’s people with power or the money to influence power. They remove the guardrails thereby limiting the free market for their own aims. Why do you think this is somehow avoided in socialist countries?

I ask because the same thing has happened in EVERY socialist economy. In fact the same thing happens MORE often in socialist economies because it is easier to hide (lower signal strength).

Our problem is the power dynamic, not the economic model - again with agreement it is not all-or-nothing, we do need some social services.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

But it is not free market “capitalism” removing the guard rails. It’s people with power or the money to influence power. They remove the guardrails thereby limiting the free market for their own aims. Why do you think this is somehow avoided in socialist countries?

I ask because the same thing has happened in EVERY socialist economy. In fact the same thing happens MORE often in socialist economies because it is easier to hide (lower signal strength).

Our problem is the power dynamic, not the economic model - again with agreement it is not all-or-nothing, we do need some social services.

Power is a by product of the economic model. That's why things got so bad after citizens united. Once capitalism got unlimited money to dump into elections, the people no longer mattered and billionaires could control the narrative.

I appreciate that you want guard rails and a push to the center. So do I. But centrists like Collins, Murkowski, Schumer, and Jeffries won't take us there. They will only stand aside while the Trump's of the world keep funneling more into their pockets at the expense of everyone else.

 

[noleclone2]

The Dems had a perfect opportunity to step into the center that the GOP abdicated . And instead they seem to be running way to the left.

This is a mistake.

They might (emphasis on might) win the house in November with this approach. But they will lose it 2 years later if they don’t rebuke the voices who are WAY to the left of the average citizen.

The sad thing is, most of us in the center don’t want a corporate oligarchy, but somehow being a centrist has become synonymous with just that. There is no reason we cannot elect moderates who want more guard rails on corporate influence…except moderates don’t win as many primaries these days.

It’s because there is a complete lack of leadership and transfer of power to the next generation of politicians in the Democratic Party.

For 10 years plus, Democrats have been run by boomers just as beholden to corporate interests and the riches they bring as Republicans and have basically been useful idiots. They have tried to be centrist and meeting the middle and it has got our country into arguably its greatest crisis for where we are going to end up as a nation since 1861.

So I get why a big chuck of people are fed up and moving away from corporate and often Israel backed boomers and looking at social democracy. If you do some digging you can find predictions that one outcome of 12 years of MAGA could be an America shifting the pendulum all the other way and becoming a Democratic Socialism type country like much of Europe by the 2030s

From what I see is they still need to work on their candidates and platforms. They have some people and even official platforms that are asinine. They need to model after Europe which still embraces capitalism. The DSA is too close to socialism.

 

[Moogy]

The center sucks. The center does very little for regular Americans. We all need to stop fantasizing about the center doing anything for working class Americans. It won't.

That's great ... just know, that to rational humans, you are MAGAtLeft.

You should check out that Geopolitics thread and the video posted within where the geopolitical experts state all their notions about how the world might end ... but then, toward the end, when they're talking about reasons why their hypotheticals may not happen, they talk about how it's necessary that our politics DON'T stay far right (they hate MAGA) and don't swing far left in response to MAGA. Historically, that's been a death knell to a country.

 

[Moogy]

Power is a by product of the economic model. That's why things got so bad after citizens united. Once capitalism got unlimited money to dump into elections, the people no longer mattered and billionaires could control the narrative.

I appreciate that you want guard rails and a push to the center. So do I. But centrists like Collins, Murkowski, Schumer, and Jeffries won't take us there. They will only stand aside while the Trump's of the world keep funneling more into their pockets at the expense of everyone else.

That's thuper, but "citizens united" and "capitalism" don't have anything to do with each other. Citizens United was just a horrible decision by a horrible Court. I'm very pro-capitalism, but extremely against Citizens United.

You nuts ranting and raving that "what has capitalism gotten us!?!?" - it's only going to hurt the nation. We don't need a seismic shift that will destroy the country, just to show we're not happy and we want to get our way ... we just need better governance. And all you guys are suggesting is MORE governance, before we've fixed the underlying issues with said governance ... meaning, it'll be a HUGE power grab full of corruption and inefficiency. It'll be the worst of both worlds. MAGA and whatever the hell you guys are were borne out of the same core group of whiners ... you just diverged on how to focus your hate.

 

[PedMaller]

That's great ... just know, that to rational humans, you are MAGAtLeft.

You should check out that Geopolitics thread and the video posted within where the geopolitical experts state all their notions about how the world might end ... but then, toward the end, when they're talking about reasons why their hypotheticals may not happen, they talk about how it's necessary that our politics DON'T stay far right (they hate MAGA) and don't swing far left in response to MAGA. Historically, that's been a death knell to a country.

Agreed…..swinging far left is a death knell for any country.

Only complete dipsh!ts would vote for Socialists at any level of government.

 

[Moogy]

Agreed…..swinging far left is a death knell for any country.

Only complete dipsh!ts would vote for Socialists at any level of government.

If you agree, than you agree that the move to MAGAtdom was the start of the death knell, as the same folks who posited swinging far left in response to MAGAtdom would kill off the country (and the world) viewed MAGAtdom as the absolute worst thing going. I'm glad you're coming around to seeing how your inhuman awfulness sucks, Pedo Mauler.

 

[Moogy]

Oh, and you socialist nutters are going to end up breathing life back into MAGA, you absolute buffoons.

MAGAtdom is on its death bed ... everyone sees how utterly incompetent and awful its Fuhrer is. Everyone sees how utterly vapid and corrupt its followers are. Everyone, except the hardcore horrible person, is abandoning MAGA.

But before that has time to "set" into the psyches of the average American, you guys come storming in with your equal but opposite psychoses. One of the very things MAGAts feared, and used as a fear tactic in recruiting fellow MAGAts. Those recent converts to normalcy and moderation are going to retreat back to their safe space of hate.

Then again, if you're extremist whackadoodles, you won't care ... you'll just want to grab power, and you'll blindly charge ahead ... just like a MAGAt. MAGAtLeft.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

Power is a by product of the economic model. That's why things got so bad after citizens united. Once capitalism got unlimited money to dump into elections, the people no longer mattered and billionaires could control the narrative.

I appreciate that you want guard rails and a push to the center. So do I. But centrists like Collins, Murkowski, Schumer, and Jeffries won't take us there. They will only stand aside while the Trump's of the world keep funneling more into their pockets at the expense of everyone else.

You are saying capitalism caused this issue, but if that is just a feature of capitalism then why has every socialist country in the planet’s history had an even bigger problem with elites controlling society for their own selfish gains?

My contention is that desire for power and selfishness are endemic to the human condition. So we need laws that govern against it and a society that follows those laws. As it happens those laws flourish more when you have a free market than when you do not. The problem in the US is not free market capitalism. It’s that we have allowed our courts, congress’s and the executive branch to be co-opted by these scumbags.

Electing a few socialists ain’t changing that. If anything it makes it worse.

 

[Yellowsnow51]

The center sucks. The center does very little for regular Americans. We all need to stop fantasizing about the center doing anything for working class Americans. It won't.

Working class Americans want prisons, police, borders, and don't want to globalize the Infitada.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

That's thuper, but "citizens united" and "capitalism" don't have anything to do with each other. Citizens United was just a horrible decision by a horrible Court. I'm very pro-capitalism, but extremely against Citizens United.

You nuts ranting and raving that "what has capitalism gotten us!?!?" - it's only going to hurt the nation. We don't need a seismic shift that will destroy the country, just to show we're not happy and we want to get our way ... we just need better governance. And all you guys are suggesting is MORE governance, before we've fixed the underlying issues with said governance ... meaning, it'll be a HUGE power grab full of corruption and inefficiency. It'll be the worst of both worlds. MAGA and whatever the hell you guys are were borne out of the same core group of whiners ... you just diverged on how to focus your hate.

That's thuper, but "citizens united" and "capitalism" don't have anything to do with each other. Citizens United was just a horrible decision by a horrible Court. I'm very pro-capitalism, but extremely against Citizens United.

You nuts ranting and raving that "what has capitalism gotten us!?!?" - it's only going to hurt the nation. We don't need a seismic shift that will destroy the country, just to show we're not happy and we want to get our way ... we just need better governance. And all you guys are suggesting is MORE governance, before we've fixed the underlying issues with said governance ... meaning, it'll be a HUGE power grab full of corruption and inefficiency. It'll be the worst of both worlds. MAGA and whatever the hell you guys are were borne out of the same core group of whiners ... you just diverged on how to focus your hate.

Citizens United has everything to do with capitalism. It's literally billionaires gaining the power to control entire elections.

And it's weird watching you accusing me of being MAGA when you're parroting exact MAGA narratives like I'm spreading hate because I want universal healthcare and more restrictions on how billionaires can influence our elections.

So you want unfettered capitalism where millions go without healthcare and there are no safety nets for poverty or to feed kids?

 

[Huey Grey 2]

You are saying capitalism caused this issue, but if that is just a feature of capitalism then why has every socialist country in the planet’s history had an even bigger problem with elites controlling society for their own selfish gains?

My contention is that desire for power and selfishness are endemic to the human condition. So we need laws that govern against it and a society that follows those laws. As it happens those laws flourish more when you have a free market than when you do not. The problem in the US is not free market capitalism. It’s that we have allowed our courts, congress’s and the executive branch to be co-opted by these scumbags.

Electing a few socialists ain’t changing that. If anything it makes it worse.

You might want to check out the Gini Index. The US has one of the worst wealth disparities in the world. These so called socialist countries you're bemoaning, whatever that means, have less wealth gaps than we do and more economic mobility.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

Oh, and you socialist nutters are going to end up breathing life back into MAGA, you absolute buffoons.

MAGAtdom is on its death bed ... everyone sees how utterly incompetent and awful its Fuhrer is. Everyone sees how utterly vapid and corrupt its followers are. Everyone, except the hardcore horrible person, is abandoning MAGA.

But before that has time to "set" into the psyches of the average American, you guys come storming in with your equal but opposite psychoses. One of the very things MAGAts feared, and used as a fear tactic in recruiting fellow MAGAts. Those recent converts to normalcy and moderation are going to retreat back to their safe space of hate.

Then again, if you're extremist whackadoodles, you won't care ... you'll just want to grab power, and you'll blindly charge ahead ... just like a MAGAt. MAGAtLeft.

What have moderates done to combat MAGA? You say you hate MAGA and want a restoration to sanity. I do, too. So what have moderates done to fix this? Only politicians I'm seeing doing actual work are the far left wing. The middle is basically wagging their fingers a bit and then doing nothing afterwards.

 

[Palmerhawk]

What have moderates done to combat MAGA? You say you hate MAGA and want a restoration to sanity. I do, too. So what have moderates done to fix this? Only politicians I'm seeing doing actual work are the far left wing. The middle is basically wagging their fingers a bit and then doing nothing afterwards.

Could you detail the actual effective achievements in squelching trump done by the far left wing?

The only power source to oppose trump has been judicial....the courts have stymied some of his actions. Many of these judges were appointed by trump and bush...

When trump controls Congress, scotus, and executive branch ,nobody has real power to stop him.
Only way to stifle him is to win elections in November.
No dem is going to run on helping trump and if elected they are not about to help an unpopular lame duck president of the opposing party.
Just win,Dems.

 

[Moogy]

Citizens United has everything to do with capitalism. It's literally billionaires gaining the power to control entire elections.

And it's weird watching you accusing me of being MAGA when you're parroting exact MAGA narratives like I'm spreading hate because I want universal healthcare and more restrictions on how billionaires can influence our elections.

So you want unfettered capitalism where millions go without healthcare and there are no safety nets for poverty or to feed kids?

No, as explained, Citizens United has NOTHING to do with capitalism. That rich people can exploit Citizens United doesn't implicate capitalism anymore than the fact that VERY rich people got even richer during the implementation of communism and socialism (shocking, huh? "but that's not supposed to happen!" our ignorant political neophytes will scream). As a pro-capitalism advocate, I believe Citizens United was quite wrongly decided ... how do you explain that in your warped view?

And, no, nutter butter ... I don't want "unfettered capitalism" (we don't have that now, we never have had it, and it's not a practical reality, nor would it be an advantageous one) ... stop being a drama queen and misrepresenting what reasonable people stand for.

Again, we're going to be stuck where we've been stuck for some time if this discussion keeps going ... I'm going to point out that talking points and empty platitudes, like "we just want to help the downtrodden! what's wrong with that?" are, in fact, just empty ... and when I point out that the devil is in the details of HOW that you're going to go about doing that, you will refuse to disclose it. Because you either don't have a plan, or the plan is ugly, and you just hope to take power based off ignorance of what you have in store for the nation.

 

[Moogy]

What have moderates done to combat MAGA? You say you hate MAGA and want a restoration to sanity. I do, too. So what have moderates done to fix this? Only politicians I'm seeing doing actual work are the far left wing. The middle is basically wagging their fingers a bit and then doing nothing afterwards.

Well, that's the problem. Being rational doesn't get headlines or ... increasingly, even results in this increasingly extremist country.

Adulting is nuance. It's measured and slow. It's dealing in details and not platitudes and slogans. That's not really that effective when you have whackos shouting "build a wall!" on one side and "down with the bourgeoisie!" on the other. The spoiled children on both sides want their way, and they want it now ... and by any means necessary.

We need someone willing and able to amplify sanity, rather than the continued devolution of either extreme.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

You might want to check out the Gini Index. The US has one of the worst wealth disparities in the world. These so called socialist countries you're bemoaning, whatever that means, have less wealth gaps than we do and more economic mobility.

I am well aware of the wealth disparity and have, on numerous occasions, suggested mechanisms to address that.

There is no real world data point…not one…that would suggest socialism is a better fundamental economic model than capitalism. Every socialist country in history has THE SAME elitist ruling class that you bemoan under capitalism.

The problem isn’t actual capitalism it’s that we allow those in power to create special rules for themselves. It’s the graft, the self dealing, the insider dynamics. Those do not go away under socialism. They THRIVE under socialism.

Anyway, if you won’t actually consider the history of real world outcomes for the working class under socialism as an argument against socialism I don’t think we have much more to debate.

 

[TC_Nole_OX]

The centrist establishment gerontocracy's last gasp

 

[Huey Grey 2]

I am well aware of the wealth disparity and have, on numerous occasions, suggested mechanisms to address that.

There is no real world data point…not one…that would suggest socialism is a better fundamental economic model than capitalism. Every socialist country in history has THE SAME elitist ruling class that you bemoan under capitalism.

The problem isn’t actual capitalism it’s that we allow those in power to create special rules for themselves. It’s the graft, the self dealing, the insider dynamics. Those do not go away under socialism. They THRIVE under socialism.

Anyway, if you won’t actually consider the history of real world outcomes for the working class under socialism as an argument against socialism I don’t think we have much more to debate.

The US has a larger wealth disparity than most of the rest of the developed world. You can argue that capitalism is working. It's not.

You can also argue that voting for moderates will help working class people. There's scant evidence that is working, either.

Do i agree with everything Hong wants? Of course not. But what I do know is that propping up moderates is only giving us more billionaires and more falling behind for the rest of us.

 

[PedMaller]

If you agree, than you agree that the move to MAGAtdom was the start of the death knell, as the same folks who posited swinging far left in response to MAGAtdom would kill off the country (and the world) viewed MAGAtdom as the absolute worst thing going. I'm glad you're coming around to seeing how your inhuman awfulness sucks, Pedo Mauler.

What a stupid take…..blaming Republicans for libtards embracing Socialism.

But you are correct that swinging too far left will kill off a country. Hopefully we can limit voter fraud here in the US to ensure that doesn’t happen.

 

[PedMaller]

TC_Tool - How stupid is this chick?! Is she really the best libtard option for Wisky??

 

[Moogy]

What a stupid take…..blaming Republicans for libtards embracing Socialism.

But you are correct that swinging too far left will kill off a country. Hopefully we can limit voter fraud here in the US to ensure that doesn’t happen.

You absolute buffoon ... MAGAts and the modern far left were borne from the same litter of discontented failures who wanted to blame everyone but themselves for their plight.

Yeah, you should definitely keep focusing on stopping a problem that has never been a problem, while the actual problems are ... you. That'll work for everyone.

 

[Moogy]

The US has a larger wealth disparity than most of the rest of the developed world. You can argue that capitalism is working. It's not.

You can also argue that voting for moderates will help working class people. There's scant evidence that is working, either.

Do i agree with everything Hong wants? Of course not. But what I do know is that propping up moderates is only giving us more billionaires and more falling behind for the rest of us.

So, it's jealousy that fuels you? It's not about what kind of life you actually have ... it's that others have more than you? And, according to you, that "more" is too much more ... so how much more is acceptable? What amount can I make/accumulate that will stop you from wanting to destroy the country, our economic system and our government just so you don't feel that jealousy any longer?

 

[PedMaller]

Remember that one time she was ALMOST proud?!

 

[o_wausauhawk]

Working class Americans want prisons, police, borders, and don't want to globalize the Infitada.

Working class Americans also want affordable housing, food & child care. Trump promised to lower costs. A person that pays attention to politics knew that was b.s.
I think this board underestimates how much regular, working class young people pay attention to politics. Trump promises stuff he was never going to deliver & people believed him. Hong is in many ways Trump-like in her attacks on Tiffany. I can see people voting for free child care, taxing billionaires etc. The state Dems in WI have done everything they can to stop Hong from getting the nomination.
Tiffany is running anti-trans ads about how Hong & liberal Madison want to mutilate your kids. I know this thread has been about Hong, but I can't stress what a ******* dork Tiffany is. He is more extreme on the political spectrum than Hong imo.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

So, it's jealousy that fuels you? It's not about what kind of life you actually have ... it's that others have more than you? And, according to you, that "more" is too much more ... so how much more is acceptable? What amount can I make/accumulate that will stop you from wanting to destroy the country, our economic system and our government just so you don't feel that jealousy any longer?

Wanting everyone to have healthcare is jealousy? Wanting everyone to have affordable education is jealousy? This is where you want to go?

 

[Moogy]

Wanting everyone to have healthcare is jealousy? Wanting everyone to have affordable education is jealousy? This is where you want to go?

I asked you questions ... why can't you answer them? This is, not just "typical" of an extremist lefty ... it's invariably the case. YOU made the comments about wealth disparity ... it wasn't about healthcare, or education. It was WEALTH DISPARITY. The size of wealth disparity. You claimed this was evidence capitalism wasn't working. OK, so at which differential is "wealth disparity" OK? At which differential would it be a sign that capitalism is "working"? At which differential would some other economic system set us, and how do we know this? Wealth disparity, itself, means nothing, but for jealousy ... theoretically, you could have people at the bottom of this disparity who are "well off" vis a vis some acceptable minimum standard of living. So, if wealth disparity is your driver, that's a jealousy issue. Yes, I'm quite aware that wealth disparity works with other factors to drive certain economic conditions, and it can be a sign of other ailments (or positives), but you stated wealth disparity.

Again, the devil is in the details with all of this. "I want affordable education for all" ... OK, how? "I want everyone to have healthcare" ... OK, how? "The wealth disparity is too large" ... OK, at which level is wealth disparity NOT too large, and how do we get there? And, no, it is absolutely NOT enough to say "well, the way we're doing it now isn't working, so let's trying something else." That's an absolutely idiotic, immature approach.

It'd be absolutely great to have these things ... what matters is if they can actually be done, and how you plan to attempt it ... what matters is something more than empty platitudes.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

I asked you questions ... why can't you answer them? This is, not just "typical" of an extremist lefty ... it's invariably the case. YOU made the comments about wealth disparity ... it wasn't about healthcare, or education. It was WEALTH DISPARITY. The size of wealth disparity. You claimed this was evidence capitalism wasn't working. OK, so at which differential is "wealth disparity" OK? At which differential would it be a sign that capitalism is "working"? At which differential would some other economic system set us, and how do we know this? Wealth disparity, itself, means nothing, but for jealousy ... theoretically, you could have people at the bottom of this disparity who are "well off" vis a vis some acceptable minimum standard of living. So, if wealth disparity is your driver, that's a jealousy issue. Yes, I'm quite aware that wealth disparity works with other factors to drive certain economic conditions, and it can be a sign of other ailments (or positives), but you stated wealth disparity.

Again, the devil is in the details with all of this. "I want affordable education for all" ... OK, how? "I want everyone to have healthcare" ... OK, how? "The wealth disparity is too large" ... OK, at which level is wealth disparity NOT too large, and how do we get there? And, no, it is absolutely NOT enough to say "well, the way we're doing it now isn't working, so let's trying something else." That's an absolutely idiotic, immature approach.

It'd be absolutely great to have these things ... what matters is if they can actually be done, and how you plan to attempt it ... what matters is something more than empty platitudes.

We have tens of millions of Americans without healthcare, an entire generation unable to buy houses, another entire generation that will be paying on students loans until they die. And on the other side of the coin, we have billionaires so rich they can buy entire industries, effect entire elections, and have the combined wealth of 150 million Americans.

If you like such a system, that's your business. Personally I don't. I'm tired of it.

As for how we repair all these problems, the first step is to vote for the people who say they want to fix this unheard of wealth disparity and not vote for the people who aren't interested in fixing this massive problem.

 

[Moogy]

We have tens of millions of Americans without healthcare, an entire generation unable to buy houses, another entire generation that will be paying on students loans until they die. And on the other side of the coin, we have billionaires so rich they can buy entire industries, effect entire elections, and have the combined wealth of 150 million Americans.

If you like such a system, that's your business. Personally I don't. I'm tired of it.

Right, so you can't answer anything and can provide no details of how you're going to fix it. Hard pass on what you're selling, until it can be examined substantively ... but you have no substance.

Here's something you might need to come to terms with ... there have ALWAYS been problems ... with EVERY country/system of governance/economic system ... people can whine about the issues of any country/governing body/economy at any point in time ... and improvements can certainly be made in anyone of those. We don't just say "eff it ... let's scrap it and do something else." It's up to YOU to make a compelling argument that this one is irrevocably broken and/or you have a viable alternative. "I don't like it, so let's do something else" just isn't going to convince anyone but the mentally infirm. Just like MAGAtdom didn't resonate with anyone, except those who felt wronged and willing to manifest that anger in hate and vengeance ... they, having no real plan, strapped their wagon to a complete immoral idiot, ready to ride to success ... just to have something different. And where'd it get them? Embarrassed. We don't need to follow the same stupidity, but in a different direction. Come up with something that makes sense. Hell, come up with ANYTHING at this point.

What I'm tired of is idiots with no plan trying to convince others to follow them over the cliff. Just for something different.

 

[Huey Grey 2]

Right, so you can't answer anything and can provide no details of how you're going to fix it. Hard pass on what you're selling, until it can be examined substantively ... but you have no substance.

Here's something you might need to come to terms with ... there have ALWAYS been problems ... with EVERY country/system of governance/economic system ... people can whine about the issues of any country/governing body/economy at any point in time ... and improvements can certainly be made in anyone of those. We don't just say "eff it ... let's scrap it and do something else." It's up to YOU to make a compelling argument that this one is irrevocably broken and/or you have a viable alternative. "I don't like it, so let's do something else" just isn't going to convince anyone but the mentally infirm. Just like MAGAtdom didn't resonate with anyone, except those who felt wronged and willing to manifest that anger in hate and vengeance ... they, having no real plan, strapped their wagon to a complete immoral idiot, ready to ride to success ... just to have something different. And where'd it get them? Embarrassed. We don't need to follow the same stupidity, but in a different direction. Come up with something that makes sense. Hell, come up with ANYTHING at this point.

What I'm tired of is idiots with no plan trying to convince others to follow them over the cliff. Just for something different.

We've provided ample examples over the years: end citizens united, move to single payer, raise taxes on the wealthy, end buy, borrow, die, cut military spending, raise the payroll tax.

And do you know why none of these can get implemented? Because we keep voting corporate centrists into office who kill these measures.

Stop voting for corporate centrists. Sure they're not going to destroy the nation like Trump is. But they also have zero interest in achieve any of the goals I just laid out

 

[Yellowsnow51]

Working class Americans also want affordable housing, food & child care. Trump promised to lower costs. A person that pays attention to politics knew that was b.s.
I think this board underestimates how much regular, working class young people pay attention to politics. Trump promises stuff he was never going to deliver & people believed him. Hong is in many ways Trump-like in her attacks on Tiffany. I can see people voting for free child care, taxing billionaires etc. The state Dems in WI have done everything they can to stop Hong from getting the nomination.
Tiffany is running anti-trans ads about how Hong & liberal Madison want to mutilate your kids. I know this thread has been about Hong, but I can't stress what a ******* dork Tiffany is. He is more extreme on the political spectrum than Hong imo.

I think you're missing what we are talking about here. Because Huey is talking about moderates not being viable compared to the socialists. You're talking about Trump, who is a liar POS that I can't stand and can't wait to get rid of. And if it's a choice between moderates and these effing nutbag socialists, there's nothing to think about.