Player A vs. Player B

[Perd Hapley]

Both are QB’s. Same number of games played against the same level of competition. Stats “per play” below are for plays in which that QB ran the ball or threw the ball.

Player A:

5.32 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 3.53%
10 Turnovers
Turnover %: 3.53%
4 of the 10 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.127

Player B:

6.13 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 9.17%
1 Turnover
Turnover %: 0.92%
0 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.550

Which one would you rather have on the field all the time, if you could only pick one?

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

Jesus?

 

[Shmuley]

Both are QB’s. Same number of games played against the same level of competition. Stats “per play” below are for plays in which that QB ran the ball or threw the ball.

Player A:

5.32 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 3.53%
10 Turnovers
Turnover %: 3.53%
4 of the 10 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.127

Player B:

6.13 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 9.17%
1 Turnover
Turnover %: 0.92%
0 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.550

Which one would you rather have on the field all the time, if you could only pick one?

Is "neither" an option?

 

[Right_Field_Heckler]

Both are QB’s. Same number of games played against the same level of competition. Stats “per play” below are for plays in which that QB ran the ball or threw the ball.

Player A:

5.32 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 3.53%
10 Turnovers
Turnover %: 3.53%
4 of the 10 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.127

Player B:

6.13 yards per play
10 TD’s
TD %: 9.17%
1 Turnover
Turnover %: 0.92%
0 turnovers were defensive TD’s
Net points per play: 0.550

Which one would you rather have on the field all the time, if you could only pick one?

I'm going out on a limb and saying that A is Shapen, due to the turnovers for TDs line...

 

[Herbert Nenninger]

Shadeur Sanders was my first thought for A

 

[DT4248]

Shapen in 2025 SEC Play is player A
Kamario in 2025 SEC Play is player B

 

[Perd Hapley]

Shapen in 2025 SEC Play is player A
Kamario in 2025 SEC Play is player B

Correct.

And the “Kamario with guardrails” offense still vastly outperformed Shapen in the regular offense, despite only being given 1/3 of the snaps. He literally accounted for the same number of TD’s, with 174 fewer “touches”, only 109 total. And don’t even get me started on the turnovers.

Point - Lebby 17ed up by giving Shapen the leash that he did.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Is "neither" an option?

Is “neither” still an option when Player B did all that in barely over 100 snaps against SEC opponents?

 

[GloryDawg]

What teams did each of them faced.

 

[Perd Hapley]

What teams did each of them faced.

Great question.

Taylor put up his numbers despite not getting meaningful reps against 2 of the worst 3 teams on the schedule (Tennessee, Florida).

They both faced the worst team (Arkansas).

Aside from above, most of Taylor’s reps were against Ole Miss, Georgia, Mizzou, and Texas.

As a whole, Shapen faced everybody but OM. Taylor had at least some reps against everyone but A&M.

 

[She Mate Me]

Kamario often came in late in drives in scoring situations. Obviously that warps the TD stats.

I’m not arguing when the decision to start him should have happened. I just don’t find this stats comparison very compelling considering the vastly different experience levels of the QBs and what was asked of them.

It really doesn’t matter. We’re going to get the answers on Lebby this season. It’s put up or ship out.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

I saw B and immediately saw whoever it was had a tiny sample size

 

[patdog]

This is like asking which do you want, the apple or the orange. The one true comparable we have the offense got worse with player b

 

[Perd Hapley]

I saw B and immediately saw whoever it was had a tiny sample size

Yet still produced more

 

[Perd Hapley]

Kamario often came in late in drives in scoring situations. Obviously that warps the TD stats.

I’m not arguing when the decision to start him should have happened. I just don’t find this stats comparison very compelling considering the vastly different experience levels of the QBs and what was asked of them.

It really doesn’t matter. We’re going to get the answers on Lebby this season. It’s put up or ship out.

You could take away 4 of his rushing TD’s (over half of them) and still have the same impact to the scoreboard that Shapen had….on much fewer snaps.

Reminder again that Shapen was directly responsible for 14 touchdowns in SEC play….except for 4 of those 14 were for the other team. His net impact to scoring was 36 points in 7 games, which is pathetic.

And acting like those rushing TD’s KT had don’t count is a bit disingenuous. He was out there because Lebby had a lot more faith in him than Shapen to finish the drive. I literally lost count of how many Shapen led drives fizzled out inside the 10 and resulted in zero points, often after a miserable 4th down decision by Lebby.

 

[Perd Hapley]

This is like asking which do you want, the apple or the orange. The one true comparable we have the offense got worse with player b

Going to ask you to show your work on that one.

On offense, we only scored 26 TD’s in SEC play. 20 of those 26 TD’s are covered above by Shapen and KT. The other 6 were Booth and Bothwell rushing TD’s…both of them got theirs regardless of the QB. Shapen also scored 4 TD’s for the other team.

It’s hard to argue in any way, shape, or form that the offense “got worse” with KT.

He had more yards per play, he had as many TD’s (on 1/3 of the snaps), a turnover ratio that was 25% of Shapen’s, never threw a pick-6 or fumbled a TD to the defense, and he even had a higher passer rating than Shapen.

Even if you gave Shapen full credit for all those other TD drives finished by the RB’s, there’s no way that makes the percentage of scoring drives more favorable for Shapen.

 

[DT4248]

The problem with the underlying assumption is that one QB played a vast majority of the snaps compared to the other vulturing some opportunities in red zone and when game was out of hand. See this opening Georgia drive as a prime example:
Shapen, 13 Plays, 71 yards.
Kamario 1 play, 4 yards, 1 TD

Singing Kamario's praises and putting down Shapen in this is rewarding the kid born on 3rd base for hitting a triple while discrediting the one who put him on 3rd.

Hell even more specifically. It's pinch Running Kamario for Shapen after Shapen hit a triple. Then Shapen hits a sacrifice fly and Kamario scores a run. You only praise Kamario for his run scored. That's your argument.

Being credited 8 rushing TDs as a QB and not crediting the rushing TDs that the other QB helped on drives produce with a balanced attack ending with the running back finishing it off is also funny math.

Lies, damned lies, statistics

You can paint whatever picture you need with statistics. Like Shapen threw 1.14 TDs per SEC game he played in and Kamario threw 0.42 TDs per SEC game he played in.

Kamario had one TD pass that went more than 3 yards.

Shapen more than doubled Kamario's total yardage output per game (over 200 vs. under 100) that's passing and rushing included.

Lotta dumb stats I can use to make Shapen clearly better.

 

[Perd Hapley]

The problem with the underlying assumption is that one QB played a vast majority of the snaps compared to the other vulturing some opportunities in red zone and when game was out of hand. See this opening Georgia drive as a prime example:
Shapen, 13 Plays, 71 yards.
Kamario 1 play, 4 yards, 1 TD

I’ve already covered this. Take away over half of KT’s rushing TD’s, and he still was by far the more efficient player on a per-play basis.

Hell even more specifically. It's pinch Running Kamario for Shapen after Shapen hit a triple. Then Shapen hits a sacrifice fly and Kamario scores a run. You only praise Kamario for his run scored. That's your argument.

It’s not. See above. Per play, KT averaged almost a full yard more per pass / rush. Forget the cumulative TD’s if you’re gonna get hung up on that. Again, take away over half of KT’s rushing TD’s. He’s still at around 0.3 net points per play compared to Shapen’s 0.12. Almost 3x as efficient even without all the rushing TD’s.

You can paint whatever picture you need with statistics. Like Shapen threw 1.14 TDs per SEC game he played in and Kamario threw 0.42 TDs per SEC game he played in.

Neat! Now do the rushing TD’s.

Kamario had one TD pass that went more than 3 yards.

Shapen only had 8 TD passes TOTAL, in 7 games as a starter, and well over 200 pass attempts. 4 of the 8 were in one game that we still lost because he had a late fumble that really screwed us. 6 other games - 4 total TD passes. That’s absolutely awful….even by MSU QB standards.

Shapen more than doubled Kamario's total yardage output per game (over 200 vs. under 100) that's passing and rushing included.

Per game stats are just regurgitated cumulative stats. On a per play basis, KT was clearly better and therefore more efficient. That is the key argument. Not his fault he had an idiot coach that gave him 3-5 plays per game until late October.

Lotta dumb stats I can use to make Shapen clearly better.

Actually none of those really hold water.

Shapen was, by every significant metric, the worst or 2nd worst starting QB in the whole SEC last season. He was so bad that he eventually got benched before the biggest game of the season against OM. This isn’t some hot take…..it’s not like this is a Tebow / Chris Leak situation. Lebby just took way too long to make the obvious move.

 

[Darryl Steight]

Why are we talking about this? I think K1 has won the starting job this year over Shapen.

Are we just having fun rehashing and bashing the guy who graduated, or just pre-shittting on Lebby for this season?

For what it's worth, I think we will be better this year and competitive with everyone on the schedule.

 

[She Mate Me]

Why are we talking about this?

Because Perd has a GD point to make and he will not be denied.

 

[johnson86-1]

Per game stats are just regurgitated cumulative stats. On a per play basis, KT was clearly better and therefore more efficient. That is the key argument. Not his fault he had an idiot coach that gave him 3-5 plays per game until late October.

That's possible, but that's not what you are trying to show with stats. You are only looking at plays in which they ran or passed rather than total plays.

You need to look at the total plays they both played. Who the QB is absolutely affects how efficient the offense is even on plays where he just hands off the ball. How the defense gets to play the run is very different if you have a passing threat back there.

 

[8dog]

this is dumb but I would note I don’t think there is a performance difference between a turnover and a turnover for a TD. Kind of like BABIP

 

[johnson86-1]

this is dumb but I would note I don’t think there is a performance difference between a turnover and a turnover for a TD. Kind of like BABIP

Lot of luck involved, but if you had a bad tendency to throw risky throws to the flats, that might actually show up in the stats. Or possibly if you have a lot of balls batted at the line of scrimmage, although I would think that's probably not much more likely to be returned for a touchdown than a regular interception? Maybe bad ball security in the pocket is more likely to create touchdowns than a running QB's fumbles?

But yea, seems like in most cases, it'd be dominated by luck.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Are we just having fun rehashing and bashing the guy who graduated, or just pre-shittting on Lebby for this season?

The latter

 

[Perd Hapley]

this is dumb but I would note I don’t think there is a performance difference between a turnover and a turnover for a TD. Kind of like BABIP

Strongly disagree.

A QB fumble in the backfield with all backs / WR’s out in a pattern is going to be a defensive TD like 50% of the time. Interceptions on short out-routes are going to be pick-6’s about 99% of the time.

30% of Shapen’s TD’s went to the other team. Certain QB’s show strong tendencies of having much more costly turnovers than others. They lack vision downfield, pocket presence / awareness, ball security, or all of the above. And usually, they are very turnover prone to begin with. Tyson Lee was the same way.