This is not original but sums it up well I believe. Professors, teachers are supposed to be teaching young people how to think and known historical facts. Looks like many of them instead invoke their personal opinions instead. Just on the news this morning is how the Teachers Unions have contributed millions of dollars to leftist groups. If you’re surprised you shouldn’t be. They are led buy the insufferable Randy Whinegarten - she doesn’t give a damn about kids education is only concerned about the teachers. I do believe they are underpaid but she clearly has a liberal agenda. They endorsed letting the kids out of class to protest the so-called No Kings Rally. Any teachers involved in that should have been fired and any kid that walked out of class should have been suspended. That is clearly not the purpose of our schools.
The American Public Has Gotten the Message on College Degrees
- Thread starter PrestonyteParrot
- Start date
All the out of class protests do have a certain leaning to them don't they?
To point made earlier. Simple opinions of the teachers alone doesnt cause that disparity.
Interesting! Why broadcast journalism? Please explain. We sometimes see Journalism listed as one of the worst degrees to get due to low pay.
I get learning about computers with only a 2-year degree needed. In some sectors (web design?), a 4-year computer science degree is a negative!
Easy curriculum to complete a degree in (for the university experience) is my guess. Then the technical degree to pursue a career with a real ROI.
I doubt that's his reasoning. lol The USC J school wasn't so easy either. One required course "Law and Ethics of the Mass Media" was REAL tough! You had to understand and explain literally hundreds of precedent-setting court cases. With curved test grading, a typical C grade might be an F!
The coursework I did take at USC as a cognate was geared to broadcast media. My major was Computer Science.
But again, go back to my initial statement. Historically, college was not designed as a job training mechanism. It's supposed to teach you how to think critically and learn on your own. Tech and business schools are designed for job training.
I was a weekend DJ at one of the local AM stations in Beaufort during my high school years and got hooked for a while. As I mentioned in other threads, I attended Davidson College after high school for two years, then transferred to USC. While at Davidson, I worked some on-air shifts at student-run, 10-watt WDAV-FM. When I transferred to USC, I did some on-air work at WUSC, weekend overnights at WSCQ, and ultimately, weekend announcer and control board operator at the SC Educational Radio Network (now known as ETV Radio for "new timers"). I was offered the opportunity to work full-time at SCERN, but turned it down, believing that there were better opportunities in computers.
The BS in Computer Science at USC in the late '70s-early '80s focused mainly on theory and research. The Management Information Systems degree offered by the Business School would have been a better fit, but I was too far along toward by Computer Science degree to start over.
To summarize, the college degree in broadcasting because I enjoyed it and for the learning, and the tech degree for job training.
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We can use some "Law and Ethics of the Mass Media" now! I don't recall such a course offered by the journalism school in 1981.
The degree in Journalism would have been due to my love of broadcast media. And @bayrooster is correct about the Tech degree.
But many, many states don't even have teacher unions- and I hear this "indoctrination" label lobbed at South Carolina teachers too- which have to be - as a group- one of the most conservative groups in the country.
and speaking of college- this is just my view- but I don't think it's possible or even reasonable to expect professors to never give their opinions. I'm not even sure that is desired. I took classes from professors because they are the experts in their field and I wanted to hear their views. Why take a class from a professor if you aren't interested in their opinion or view on an issue or topic.
I think it's important to remember that when we speak of college, college is for adults. Most are young adults and some are older adults.
I even took one Religion class from a professor- certainly wasn't a Southern Baptist. I found it fascinating. He was very smart, and I learned a lot from the class. He had very different opinions on a number of things. Some students even tried arguing with him and he would allow some of that, if they were respectful. He was also respectful. But he definitely shared his opinions on matters. I remember his class being quite popular with students. It's hard to teach such a class without sharing an opinion. It's even hard to take such a class without sharing an opinion.
I had professors of all types- but most of them I had no idea what their actual political or religious views even were. Many of them could and would argue many different sides of an argument all in the same class. One of my most liberal professors would do that frequently.
again, I think one thing that is left out of this conversation is that college students are mostly 18-22 years old. They are developing all sorts of different views- many are different than their parents. That doesn't mean someone is indoctrinating them. I mean, they parents have had 18 years with them- indoctrinating them in many cases- and obviously that doesn't work very well a lot of the time. So, a professor who barely even talks to most students certainly has little chance at indoctrinating anyone.
Indoctrination is also a very, very strong word. It implies coercion and psychological tactics. I am not discounting this COULD happen but I don't think it happens very often. It would be very rare.
I could see it more likely in graduate school where a student might have to work with a professor closely on a project for months or even a year- but not in undergraduate school where you just don't have much time with a professor at all- and most students barely do enough to get their work in by the deadlines. They sure aren't sitting there like a sponge soaking up this indoctrination that is being alleged to be an issue.
I agree with this for the most part.
Same- I didn't drink and don't drink. Saw tons of it. Never considered it. Never even felt pressure to do it. Saw friends do it. They did their thing. I did mine.
I do have slightly different political views than my parents- but nothing major. But if you asked my dad, I'm a raging liberal because when I got to college, I started to have doubts that they way we dealt with the death penalty made much sense. That's all it took. The only issue my dad still talks about to this day some 25+ years after I graduated college.
The funny thing is, my dad even agrees with me on the issue most of the time when it's just me and him talking. But since I voiced an opinion as a college student that he hadn't really considered for whatever reason, he labeled me a raging liberal and he will say I am if someone asks him about it. He will say "those college folks twisted his mind about it." I think it's just a habit of his at this point- something he's said so many times without thinking about it that it's a crutch or something. It doesn't bother me at all because the few instances now where we discuss the issue, he will always tell me " you know you have a good point there"
For him, it's just an easy way to blame someone for me developing an idea that was slightly different than his idea on the issue. He couldn't quite wrap his mind around the idea that I had a different view than "mom and dad." The ironic thing is- my dad was VERY close this his dad- my grandpa. But my dad had some different views on some things than his dad did. But my dad has a blind spot and can't see that just as he had some different views from his dad, I have slightly different views than he does (and ironically, are often closer to my late grandfather who was a bit more liberal than my dad).
Now- my son- a college grad- has a slightly different view on the issue than me or even my parents- but I don't blame any of these "forces" or teachers, or professors or college. My wife and I realize he is his own person and simply has developed his own views as an adult based on reading, based on his friends, based on him considering various things, and also based on his own education. I actually value that he's got his own views he's developed. In fact, I love hearing his opinions on things even when- or especially when, they are different than mine.
Oddly enough, when I hear someone blame "indoctrination" for the different views of their children, I often think they are unintentionally - without realizing it- discounting their own loved one's ideas, opinions, and ability to develop their own views on things- which is a very natural thing for any human being to do.
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The head of the SC Teachers Union is the opposite of conservative.
Unlike peer pressure, which can be avoided or dismissed, professors have real power to impact students with failing grades and public ridicule for presenting an opposing point of view or simply challenging the only narrative being presented. This behavior has been well documented.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you used the word coercion. Indoctrination is not a professor simply having an opinion, or sharing that opinion, but some form of coercion.
It was happening 30+ years ago when I was in school, and I see it still happening with my children.
I agree that SC is more conservative than a lot of states, which makes me very concerned for what goes on in those other states. (Like the extreme example of California where they can work to transition kids without telling parents, etc)
I wonder what would happen to a teacher/school administrator who assisted a child with a transition reversal process without telling the parents?
Kids these days don’t need a college degree to be arrogant and a know it all. They all feel entitled.
But south carolina has no teacher's union. They have an association that has no collective bargaining rights. It's simply a association like the SC Manufacturer's Alliance (who advocates for many businesses that receive all sorts of tax breaks from South Carolina taxpayers) or the SC Trucking Association
If you are talking about Patrick Kelly, he's a teacher and about as middle of the road as it gets these days. He's even praised the work of the SC republican house numerous times this very year, not something a raging liberal would ever do.
Yes, in theory professors can impact students with failing grades- like a business could charge a customer they don't agree with politically with higher prices or screw them over on deals. But professors are teaching adults and adults can switch classes, take other classes, even change schools if they are getting screwed over by professors giving them bad grades that aren't deserved. They can also contact their representatives, hold press conferences, go to talk show hosts, or podcasters, even file lawsuits. That's not happening except in the rarest of rare occasions, especially in states like South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, etc.
Other than some anecdotes, this seems to be more of something that sounds good rather than something that is actually a real problem.
Are there isolated incidents? Sure. There are isolated incidents of anything under the sun. But it's not the problem that some claim and it sure wasn't the experience we had with my son recently graduating.
But a professor having an opinion and sharing it is cited all the time by people. "Of course professors have opinions" is always my response. Why wouldn't they? They are teaching various courses- that require educated people to make decisions and voice opinions. Again, professors are teaching adults, not children.
When do professors have time to coerce adult students? I simply never experienced anything like this. My classes were 50 mins or 1 hour and 20 mins. I was taking notes, trying to figure out what was being said, daydreaming a bit, and wondering what I needed to actually study to pass the test. I don't even know how coercion would work.
As I mentioned, I guess I could come up with a scenario in graduate school of that happening but it would be hard. When I was in graduate school, I took a semester to write a paper/project that turned out to be basically be a book- a book with one copy. LOL. I worked very closely with my professor who was really nothing more than an advisor. He would read parts, make suggestions and I would talk to him 2-3 times a week at times, usually for 10-15 mins at a time because like other professors, he had a lot more students to talk to, not just me.
I can't imagine how coercion would have even worked. I wasn't important enough to try to coerce into anything and quite frankly, I was a very good graduate student. I excelled in my program and already had a job in my field.
can you give me an example of your children being coerced in a specific class?
With all the options available to parents, are they still in that class/school?
I have simply not had this experience so I like examples to help me.
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My sister is a math teacher in South Carolina. She's in her 22nd or 23rd year. How would such a thing even occur? Seems like this topic is expanding to include all sorts of things.
Teachers getting involved in such a thing would lead to immediate dismissal or suspension. I took the time to text my sister and ask her. She wasn't sure what I was asking at first. She said she's had 2 students in her entire tenure at a large high school in South Carolina where the student asked her to be called a different name which led her to believe the student was claiming to be transgendered. She says she, nor her coworkers, ask such questions of any student. So, they aren't ever really sure unless the student volunteers that info to a teacher. In her case, her 2 examples never volunteered the info and the parents didn't either.
She said she knows of one example where a high school student was transitioning because the parents told the school and the parents were supportive and the student did well and had no issues. The teachers simply called the student the name the parents requested. If they parents changed their mind and told the school, the teachers would simply follow their wishes. If not, they would be disciplined.
In both cases, the school contacted the parents for permission to use a name not provided at school registration, which was their policy for all name changes- even kids that simply wanted to go by nicknames. She said that policy actually arose out of an issue where parents going through divorce (pretty common) might have differences- meaning one parents calls the student by a nickname and the other by a given name, and that created conflict between the parents.
Okay, you've typed a few long posts, ill attempt to answer in one.
Yes, professors have opinions, and yes their job is to "open minds to new ideas". Opening minds is not teaching one side of a debate though, as has been my experience. But I still dont think thats "indoctrination", or maybe its a small part of it.
Teachers and professors can absolutley "coerce" rather easily. Choice of topics, assignments of papers (you will write about how X influenced your life, even if you dont believe X exists). Choice of novels to read and report on. (This is a blatently obvious one in my and my children's experience. )Administrators supporting school walk outs for only one side of a debate, etc. Teachers getting kids to transition and helping hide it from parents. (In California, there are actual laws assisting that now, and maybe other states too.)
Coercion could be grading harsher for not aligning with certain opinions. Many have claimed this, but it is almost impossible to prove.
As for the teachers getting dismissed immediately for trying to transition kids? I know of one example from a greenville middle school maybe 4 years ago involving several girls whose parents pulled them out of the school. The teacher was not dismissed, but i cant say if she was disciplined. I could find no public record of any punishment.
I also just spent time with a grade school teacher in Indiana who has a litter box in one of the other teachers rooms for a furry student.
I have to ask, and I dont intend it as confrontational. First off, everyone thinks they themselves as middle if the aisle politically. We're always normal and everyone further right and left are the extremists.
But how would your friends and family describe your political leanings?I ask because, if a teacher is pushing a political idea that I agree with, I am far less likely to consider it indoctrination, and would probably not be as quick to notice the lack of balance. If its an idea I disagree with, I am far more likely to recognize the imbalance. And with teachers unions, teachers population, (and especially professors heavy lean left), I can easily see people who even lean left not really seeing an issue, while being honest about it.
Okay, you've typed a few long posts, ill attempt to answer in one.
Yes, professors have opinions, and yes their job is to "open minds to new ideas". Opening minds is not teaching one side of a debate though, as has been my experience. But I still dont think thats "indoctrination", or maybe its a small part of it.
Teachers and professors can absolutley "coerce" rather easily. Choice of topics, assignments of papers (you will write about how X influenced your life, even if you dont believe X exists). Choice of novels to read and report on. (This is a blatently obvious one in my and my children's experience. )Administrators supporting school walk outs for only one side of a debate, etc. Teachers getting kids to transition and helping hide it from parents. (In California, there are actual laws assisting that now, and maybe other states too.)
Coercion could be grading harsher for not aligning with certain opinions. Many have claimed this, but it is almost impossible to prove.
As for the teachers getting dismissed immediately for trying to transition kids? I know of one example from a greenville middle school maybe 4 years ago involving several girls whose parents pulled them out of the school. The teacher was not dismissed, but i cant say if she was disciplined. I could find no public record of any punishment.
I also just spent time with a grade school teacher in Indiana who has a litter box in one of the other teachers rooms for a furry student.
I have to ask, and I dont intend it as confrontational. First off, everyone thinks they themselves as middle if the aisle politically. We're always normal and everyone further right and left are the extremists.
I ask because, if a teacher is pushing a political idea that I agree with, I am far less likely to consider it indoctrination, and would probably not be as quick to notice the lack of balance. If its an idea I disagree with, I am far more likely to recognize the imbalance. And with teachers unions, teachers population, (and especially professors heavy lean left), I can easily see people who even lean left not really seeing an issue, while being honest about it.
It's a it difficult as I have not had this experience. My last child just graduated high school and is entering college and my others have completed college. I simply can't relate to this coercion you speak of.
College students are freely choosing a college to attend. They freely choose a major. They freely chose to go to class and select specific classes. They transfer colleges. They can choose small colleges, big ones, religious based ones, ones that lean politically to the right or left. They are adults. Maybe they are choosing to be coerced by certain people? That's possible. But rre they that easily coerced? I personally don't think so. Just because someone tries to coerce someone doesn't mean they are good at it- or will actually do it. I know with my own 23 year old, the more I try to "coerce" him into something, the more he is likely to run the other direction. I think a lot of young adults are the same.
I tend to think older adults, like you and me, don't give young adults the credit they deserve. We think they are going to be sold a bill of goods so easily- when they are actually arriving at their own opinions in a completely rational way- by their own experiences and observations - and they might arrive at different conclusions than we would.
I mean, I know people that seem to be coerced. But they are watching or listening to left wing or right wing talk shows or podcasts and, over time, they seem to fall in line with whatever shows they choose to listen to. They seem to be coerced, even repeating phrases almost word for word that other people use. But even that can take years and years listening to the same show or listening to the same person. College students don't have that option. They might have a professor for a few months or so and they move on to another.
My own 76 year old uncle fell into this situation. He watches cable news shows about 10 hours a day. He's retired and has trouble walking and his days are filled with watching other people give political opinions and by now he's repeating their opinions word for word- on subjects he didn't give a damn about it even 10 years ago. To me that is real coercion. But he's an adult. He can do what he wants.
What is the name of this Indiana teacher that has a litter box in her classroom for a student to use? Surely you can name this person. I am unclear as to why they would still have a job in a state like Indiana who is a "fire at will" state- meaning an employee can be fire at any time for no reason at all.
To answer you question, I already said my dad thinks I am a "raging liberal" because I once told him- way back when I was in college- that I thought the way we did the death penalty in South Carolina didn't make a lot of sense. That's all the evidence he needed that I was a "raging liberal" - his words- even though he's admitted to me a hundred times that he sees my point and doesn't disagree with me. LOL. But to him, that's all the evidence he needed and he's stuck with that- usually sort of joking- but still he will repeat it every family Christmas gathering.
I think my family would say I generally have a libertarian approach to social and personal liberty issues- meaning - I think people live their lives the way they want and it's 100% fine with me and none of the government' business (or mine) in most all cases. I have a great friend that is gay that I fully support and believe his marriage should have every legal protection. I know and love several trans people, I know and love gay people, I own guns, I hunt (much less now than I use to), I fish, I think people have every right to own guns. I support open carry. I am a big "don't tread on me" guy - but I also realize that also means I don't tread on others either.
I am not sure they would even know my politics in terms of money matters and foreign policy as I am not sure I know myself. I would say I am pretty middle of the road on many issues. I am not a partisan. In many elections, I have simply not even voted as I didn't see a candidate that I felt good supporting. For example, I didn't vote at all in 2024, 2020, or 2016 and won't be voting in the local primaries in coming up this week. For me this "indoctrination issue" isn't really a political one- it's just one that never made much sense to me in general.
I think your last thought statement sort of sums up my view on thie entire issue. If a teacher of any kind seems to support an idea that a person agrees with, they don't care how much coercion they use.
I think the idea that actual coercion is taking place is way overblown and really a political tactic (a successful one in many cases) used to motivate otherwise non-interested people to go vote a certain way or vote for a certain political party or group. Those on the right are doing it with this issue to motivate those on their side like those on the left have used the "they are throwing poor granny off the cliff" rhetoric to motivate their side.
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I am in my 50's as well, but my children are just a little younger.
I like your point of people getting coerced over time by their choice in news, etc. I would put to you that a consistent political leaning through school years can achieve that too.
They may not have the same teacher, but when university and school staffs are 90% left, the students are simply moving on to the next voice preaching the same thing. And often are funneled into situations where they cant shop around for another professor.
And many times, the insertion of politics is coming from administration's, so it spans across all teachers.
As for the Indiana teacher, shes family. (Not the teacher with the litter box, the teacher mortified by it.) I would not put her name on the net at all. That does bring up another point, although anecdotal. She will tell you how she is shocked how we're teaching kids today. Choosing curriculum that assigns blame for society on skin color, teaches kids to split by "tribe", or coddles kids unwilling to learn. It is frightening to hear her stories of what she calls a major degradation of teaching.
I have my personal experiences which I consider shocking, other family members who are teachers who corroborate, and a awful lot of examples from the web that tell me it has to be more than just rhetoric. Stories and accounts of people not being allowed to read excerpts from children's school books because their not appropriate to be read in public but are in books that can be checked out of grade school libraries, etc.
I started googling "indoctrination in schools" to start highlighting examples, but truthfully, there's too many to list.
I found this one link of a reddit thread that went way deeper than we have.
I just cant dismiss it as rhetoric. Having seen it it, lived it and heard from so many others of similar situations. But I undersfand you do, I get it.
If you have not, I actually envy you. I think you're lucky. Can you give me this week's lottery numbers?
Also, didn't mean to pry or dig on the political leaning thing. Its just that, in my personal experience, the divide falls almost entirely down political party lines. And that just sets off warning bells in my mind.
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IMO, the is one of, if not the best, post in this thread.
I like that you think, analyze, and make your own path while respectfully allowing others to choose theirs. That, IMO, is the American way.
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Not sure I can agree that "they are the one who sew hate and division", from my point of view, there is plenty of that on both sides of this equation. The reality is, most of us have far more in common with one another than we might think regardless of what the extremes on either side may think.
I "liked" the second part, we do have more in common than not, and we often forget that.
I disagree on the first part though. Imo, teaching kids to separate into tribes based on skin color is absolutley sewing hate and division. Now, they certainly aren't the ONLY ones doing it.
It was Psycock originally.
Was it??? I need to work on properly placing blame!
I've met plenty of guys on job-sites over the years who managed to get theirs absolutely free.
An Ivy League degree can theoretically open some business doors. Not much else at this point.
I hear nothing of discord at Dartmouth and Cornell. What's goinf on in Hanover and Ithaca?
I had a Lander professor who informed the class that America stole Texas from Mexico. Being from Texas and familiar with history I asked him what role the United States played in the war for Texas independence and he had to admit that the answer was none. If I hadn't pushed back the class would have believed Texas was stolen by the US. Was that professor giving an opinion or just flat-out lying to his students?
And that is excellent, I assume that the US was neutral in that conflict? Andre Jackson was our president than, and he doesn't have such a great reputation these days.
Andre Jackson was definitely not our president.
Maybe the prof was extrapolating.......?I was actually asking someone a simple question.
After admitting what he said was not true so quickly it made me think that he knew what he was saying was not true when he said it. That's my classic definition of flat-out lying. What would yours be?
Maybe he believed it. Sounds like he was offering his opinion. Obviously, I can't say what one person was thinking when they said something. People of all types do say things they believe, and also things they don't really believe.
I had a professor at USC - Robert Thompson- who would argue that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor well ahead of time and intentionally ignored it and let it happen because he wanted the US in the war. That's a conspiracy theory that a small percentage of people believe. Fine. I'm not here to debate that. My point is - Dr. Thompson mentioned this in class a few times- but it wasn't the subject of our class. I remember he got some pushback from 1-2 students on it and we moved on. I don't think any student paying attention in the class agreed with him. But we didn't let it sidetrack us. I know I didn't agree with him, but I still thought he was a good professor.
If anyone had Dr. Thompson, they knew he gave a LOT of opinions in his classes and lectures about all sorts of things- and he lectured 99.9% of the time in every single class. If I had to pigeon-hole him, I would say he was very conservative on most of his opinions. But I have to give him a bit of grace too and say that maybe he was being a bit controversial just to be controversial. Maybe that was something he simply enjoyed doing.
When I was at USC, in one history class we watched The Civil War by Ken Burns. There were 2-3 guys in the class (always guys it seems) that wanted to argue parts of the documentary at the end of every class (our professor would leave about 5-7 mins at the end of each class for a quick review of the episode)
Their usual theme was that the war wasn't about slavery, etc..... - they made the same argument after every episode. The professor didn't agree with them but would let them sort of talk- while 60 other students (the rest of the class) just sat back and sort of laughed at these guys for always wanting to argue at the end of the episode. I don't think any of us even cared what they were arguing about, we just thought it was funny they always wanted to argue.
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Maybe Professor Thompson wanted to encourage everyone to think it through and not just accept everything as gospel.
I've read articles supporting a view that FDR may have had advance knowledge of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. I'm going to neither flat-out agree nor deny it.
I have read enough about the Civil War to conclude that while the South's rebellion was not 100% over slavery, slavery was the driving force, and if slavery was not an issue, I doubt the reballion would have happened at all.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but part of the problem is that people started pushing that "college is for everyone." For one thing, it turned into a massive money grab by universities, leading to the spiraling cost of getting a college degree. It also devalued the trades. Plus, when you adopt the "college is for everyone" mindset, you have to start offering ridiculous degrees and lower the overall bar to accommodate those people who shouldn't have been in college in the first place. As someone noted above, college is really supposed to be about teaching you how to think critically, but that's been shoved to the side in favor of the assembly line of just pushing uniform graduates out the door.
Getting into, and graduating from, college used to actually mean something. It was an actual accomplishment. Now going to college is absolutely no big deal.
Getting into, and graduating from, college used to actually mean something. It was an actual accomplishment. Now going to college is absolutely no big deal.