Wrestling Thread

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

Shamrock was awesome and fit in well and was a good ic champ. Plus the rock chair shot was unforgettable.

Severn was a joke but Steve Williams was good in the 80s with terry Gordy.

Williams was amazing in the 80s. Varsity Club baby
I loved Shamrock. Hell I even liked Steve Blackman.
Severn...not so much...

But in one of his Sean Oliver shoots, Corny said Stone Cold and Dr. Death should have headlined WrestleMania in '98 or '99 and that would have been "easy as printing money". I mean...that's just a totally absurd take.

 

[American Dragon]

On the whole SNME not feeling special point, you guys might wanna check the history of that show and the revitalized version in the 2000s. It's 4 or 5 matches and a lot of filler. Some of the cards I'm looking at are terrible minus a match here or there. Those shows felt special because we were young and it meant more wrestling.

Just because something hasn't historically been special doesn't mean it has to always be that way. Something that's only done like once a quarter in primetime on a Saturday should be treated as a special event because that's how it's being scheduled.

This last one had a worse card and less star presence than an average WWE house show.

Once NBC canceled the broadcast stream and WWE moved to NEtflix for PLEs, they've mailed it in on SNME. Only reason Cena's final match happened on one is because ESPN told them to cut the *hit by saying no to a PLE the same day as AEW World's End.

 

[Nightwish]

Just because something hasn't historically been special doesn't mean it has to always be that way. Something that's only done like once a quarter in primetime on a Saturday should be treated as a special event because that's how it's being scheduled.

This last one had a worse card and less star presence than an average WWE house show.

Once NBC canceled the broadcast stream and WWE moved to NEtflix for PLEs, they've mailed it in on SNME. Only reason Cena's final match happened on one is because ESPN told them to cut the *hit by saying no to a PLE the same day as AEW World's End.

I'm just saying it's never been special. I loved the Clash shows during the 90s but looking back, it was more of an additional episode of Nitro with a title match, same with the history of SNME. If fans were expecting much more than what the show has been throughout its history, I'm sorry?

"This is like a Raw!" Yeah. Again, check out some of the matches throughout SNME's run.

 

[American Dragon]

I'm just saying it's never been special. I loved the Clash shows during the 90s but looking back, it was more of an additional episode of Nitro with a title match, same with the history of SNME. If fans were expecting much more than what the show has been throughout its history, I'm sorry?

"This is like a Raw!" Yeah. Again, check out some of the matches throughout SNME's run.

I think it's fair to hold a company to a higher, reasonable standard then be disappointed because they don't achieve this reasonable standard.

Like I don't think it's all that unreasonable to expect WWE to treat a primetime Saturday show, especially one that started out on broadcast TV, as something special instead of the throwaway show that they seemingly booked this past weekend's show like.

Also like how I thought it would have been reasonable for AEW to treat Battle of the Belts like a legitimate TV special, especially when they weren't doing PPVs nearly every month. Instead it basically became a pointless extra episode of Rampage.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

I'm just saying it's never been special. I loved the Clash shows during the 90s but looking back, it was more of an additional episode of Nitro with a title match, same with the history of SNME. If fans were expecting much more than what the show has been throughout its history, I'm sorry?

"This is like a Raw!" Yeah. Again, check out some of the matches throughout SNME's run.

Maybe in the Clash's later years but early on, Flair was having hour long matches against Sting and Steamboat on Clash of the Champions. And the NY Knockout I Quit match with Funk. What 80s wrestling television program had cards like that? WCW shows pre-Nitro were mostly squash matches

SNME and Clash were absolutely supposed to be bigger than your average episode of the weekly TV show. They just were. Whether or not they always lived up to that is another discussion.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

first 2 years of SNME main event matches (85-86):

• Hogan title defense vs Bob Orton Jr
• Hogan title defense vs Nikolai Volkoff
• Hogan & Andre vs King Kong Bundy & John Studd
• Hogan title defense vs Funk
• Hogan title defense vs Don Muraco
• Hogan & JYD vs the Funk Brothers
• Hogan title defense vs Orndorff
• Hogan title defense vs Hercules
• Hogan title defense vs Orndorff

first 2 years of Clash main event matches (88-89):

• Flair title defense vs Sting
• Dusty Rhodes & Sting vs Tully & Arn
• Sting vs Barry Windham
• Flair & Windham vs Midnight Express
• Road Warriors/Tenryu vs Varsity Club
• Flair title defense vs Steamboat
• Funk vs Steamboat
• Flair & Sting vs Muta & Slater
• Flair vs Funk

Which of these matches would not have been a PPV main event back in those days?

Now go look at the card for the most recent SNME and tell me you don't see a difference.

 

[American Dragon]

first 2 years of SNME main event matches (85-86):

• Hogan title defense vs Bob Orton Jr
• Hogan title defense vs Nikolai Volkoff
• Hogan & Andre vs King Kong Bundy & John Studd
• Hogan title defense vs Funk
• Hogan title defense vs Don Muraco
• Hogan & JYD vs the Funk Brothers
• Hogan title defense vs Orndorff
• Hogan title defense vs Hercules
• Hogan title defense vs Orndorff

first 2 years of Clash main event matches (88-89):

• Flair title defense vs Sting
• Dusty Rhodes & Sting vs Tully & Arn
• Sting vs Barry Windham
• Flair & Windham vs Midnight Express
• Road Warriors/Tenryu vs Varsity Club
• Flair title defense vs Steamboat
• Funk vs Steamboat
• Flair & Sting vs Muta & Slater
• Flair vs Funk

Which of these matches would not have been a PPV main event back in those days?

Now go look at the card for the most recent SNME and tell me you don't see a difference.

WWE has better cards on paper for house shows than they did for this last SNME.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

WWE has better cards on paper for house shows than they did for this last SNME.

His argument doesn't even make sense.
"You expected it to be good. That's a you problem."
...huh?? what kinda nonsense logic is that?

 

[Laparkafan]

WWE has better cards on paper for house shows than they did for this last SNME.

All house shows were good back in the 80s and 90s

 

[CrimeDawg18]

After more further review I would put Double Or Nothing at #2 on the list of AEW PPV's only behind All Out 2021.
Rest of top five would be
Double Or Nothing 2019
Revolution 2024
All In 2024

Dynamite and Collision preview for this evening as of now.

The fallout of AEW Double or Nothing.
Hikaru Shida vs. Kris Statlander - Philly Street Fight.
AEW Tag Team Champions Adam Copeland & Christian Cage celebrate with a five second pose.
Owen Hart Foundation Tournament: Mark Davis vs. Jack Perry.
Ricochet vs. Chris Jericho with everyone banned from ringside.
Renee Paquette interviews Kyle Fletcher and Don Callis.
Kevin Knight explains his Double or Nothing actions.

 

[American Dragon]

Like I said, better cards at house shows

 

[Laparkafan]

Like I said, better cards at house shows

Because they have to sell tickets for non-tv events - seems like common sense?

 

[American Dragon]

After more further review I would put Double Or Nothing at #2 on the list of AEW PPV's only behind All Out 2021.
Rest of top five would be
Double Or Nothing 2019
Revolution 2024
All In 2024

Dynamite and Collision preview for this evening as of now.

The fallout of AEW Double or Nothing.
Hikaru Shida vs. Kris Statlander - Philly Street Fight.
AEW Tag Team Champions Adam Copeland & Christian Cage celebrate with a five second pose.
Owen Hart Foundation Tournament: Mark Davis vs. Jack Perry.
Ricochet vs. Chris Jericho with everyone banned from ringside.
Renee Paquette interviews Kyle Fletcher and Don Callis.
Kevin Knight explains his Double or Nothing actions.

If I ranked every match from both shows on one list, only one match from All Out 2021 would rank in my top five.

But that one match will always be one of the best tag matches I’ve ever seen - Bucks vs. Lucha Bros in the cage.

However, Danielson AND Adam Cole debuting to end All Out 2021 easily clears any moment from DoN 2026. That’s an all-timer moment in AEW history. Or at least it is for me. Danielson is my GOAT and I’ve always loved Adam Cole even though his AEW career has been cursed.

Speaking of Adam Cole. Wonder how he’s doing these days. If I was him I’d probably just retire. Would love to see him stick around and join the broadcast team.

Him and Danielson are both excellent in the booth and TK seems to like having Cole be a PR/marketing face for the company. And honestly who can blame him? If he wasn’t so small and now frail he’d be a complete package of wrestler.

 

[American Dragon]

Because they have to sell tickets for non-tv events - seems like common sense?

So it’s okay to just phone it in for tv events then?

 

[American Dragon]

His argument doesn't even make sense.
"You expected it to be good. That's a you problem."
...huh?? what kinda nonsense logic is that?

“Sorry you have expectations and standards since we don’t”

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

“Sorry you have expectations and standards since we don’t”

I didn't even need to go back as far as I did.

the last few SNME cards had:

• Gunther v Goldberg
• Cody v Drew McIntyre / Punk v Jey Uso
• Cody v Oba Femi and John Cena's friggin retirement match against Gunther
• Styles v Nakamura / fatal 4 way for the #1 contendership

Regardless of if you like those guys or not, that is some serious star power.
So again I ask...what is up with this latest SNME card?
Do they just not care about the Fort Wayne fans because it's friggin Fort Wayne and they'll go watch anything? They'd probably be satisfied by a main event of Virgil vs. the Brooklyn Brawler.
Or do they not care about giving Peacock quality content since their deal is basically over?
Or is WWE creative just in a lazy slump at the moment?

 

[Laparkafan]

I didn't even need to go back as far as I did.

the last few SNME cards had:

• Gunther v Goldberg
• Cody v Drew McIntyre / Punk v Jey Uso
• Cody v Oba Femi and John Cena's friggin retirement match against Gunther
• Styles v Nakamura / fatal 4 way for the #1 contendership

Regardless of if you like those guys or not, that is some serious star power.
So again I ask...what is up with this latest SNME card?
Do they just not care about the Fort Wayne fans because it's friggin Fort Wayne and they'll go watch anything? They'd probably be satisfied by a main event of Virgil vs. the Brooklyn Brawler.
Or do they not care about giving Peacock quality content since their deal is basically over?
Or is WWE creative just in a lazy slump at the moment?

People complained about those matches too when they happened.

 

[billCgmx_]

I've said before I wouldn't go to a current WWE show for a variety of reasons but many still do. If I'm an AEW fan, I'd wonder why AEW can't get more than 2,000-4,000 to show up for Dynamite in the states. That's been my point in the past. AEW fans claim they're on fire and it's the best this and best that and this episode was great, that PPV was perfection - but where are the fans on Wed nights? Even a cooled down WWE just did over 9,000 in Rupp for SD. If AEW tried that they'd get less than 3,000. I'm glad they just sold out NYC but AEW fans tend to push a narrative when numbers say differently. Face it my guy, most wrestling fans may not be thrilled with WWE right now but most wrestling fans don't really care about AEW either.

WCW was averaging 2,687 fans in 2001 right before they shut down the company

 

[Nightwish]

His argument doesn't even make sense.
"You expected it to be good. That's a you problem."
...huh?? what kinda nonsense logic is that?

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The last card didn't have star power for sure but other recent cards have...and folks still complained. The SNME cards from the 2000s revamped era weren't exactly barnburners either, which was my point. I feel you're making this a current WWE issue when it's not. They've had loads of star power on these shows in the past. Again, some still complained. You know the reason this card was light was because they've got the Italy show this weekend. Would I have gone? Nope. But what was the final count for Ft. Wayne? 10,000? Guess they're doing something right even if many may disagree.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The last card didn't have star power for sure but other recent cards have...and folks still complained. The SNME cards from the 2000s revamped era weren't exactly barnburners either, which was my point. I feel you're making this a current WWE issue when it's not. They've had loads of star power on these shows in the past. Again, some still complained. You know the reason this card was light was because they've got the Italy show this weekend. Would I have gone? Nope. But what was the final count for Ft. Wayne? 10,000? Guess they're doing something right even if many may disagree.

People will always complain. I don't care about that.

But can you show me an SNME card that is more lackluster than the latest? Show me an SNME main event weaker than Theory/Paul vs Street Profits.

And yeah it was a nice house bc it's friggin Fort Wayne, they probably hadn't been in twenty years. Which is my whole point. Why are they treating an SNME like a random spot show/house show in a market they don't go to much?

 

[American Dragon]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The last card didn't have star power for sure but other recent cards have...and folks still complained. The SNME cards from the 2000s revamped era weren't exactly barnburners either, which was my point. I feel you're making this a current WWE issue when it's not. They've had loads of star power on these shows in the past. Again, some still complained. You know the reason this card was light was because they've got the Italy show this weekend. Would I have gone? Nope. But what was the final count for Ft. Wayne? 10,000? Guess they're doing something right even if many may disagree.

A multi billion dollar company should never be absolved from failing to live up to their potential unless external legal factors are preventing it. And as far as I'm aware, no government entity has told WWE what matches they can and can't book other than maybe the Saudi shows when surely the Saudis have some say over the cards.

 

[American Dragon]

People will always complain. I don't care about that.

But can you show me an SNME card that is more lackluster than the latest? Show me an SNME main event weaker than Theory/Paul vs Street Profits.

And yeah it was a nice house bc it's friggin Fort Wayne, they probably hadn't been in twenty years. Which is my whole point. Why are they treating an SNME like a random spot show/house show in a market they don't go to much?

Because WWE knows their fans are stupid enough to buy a ticket for it.

The fans complain, and complain, and complain, but at the end of the day hardly any of them ever do anything to actually hold WWE accountable such as stop watching, stop buying tickets, etc.

It's performative complaining. If they had a podcast or a website we'd be calling them grifters.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

Because WWE knows their fans are stupid enough to buy a ticket for it.

The fans complain, and complain, and complain, but at the end of the day hardly any of them ever do anything to actually hold WWE accountable such as stop watching, stop buying tickets, etc.

It's performative complaining. If they had a podcast or a website we'd be calling them grifters.

I don't think they're stupid. It's deeper than that.
We all grew up watching the same stuff after all. For the most part.
I can't explain it. I don't understand brand loyalty to a company that clearly despises their fans.

 

[American Dragon]

Not looking good for the defendants in the WWE Shareholder lawsuit. Defendants are Nick Khan, Vince McMahon, Triple H, and two execs you probably never heard of. Looking especially bad for Khan and Vince though, their chances of losing the lawsuit just skyrocketed.

Vince McMahon and Nick Khan sanctioned by judge in WWE merger lawsuit, heightening their burden to prevail at trial - POST Wrestling | Podcasts, News, Reviews | WWE AEW NXT NJPW

Ari Emanuel's offer to indemnify McMahon and help with federal investigations presumed by judge to have influenced TKO merger

www.postwrestling.com

 

[Laparkafan]

Not looking good for the defendants in the WWE Shareholder lawsuit. Defendants are Nick Khan, Vince McMahon, Triple H, and two execs you probably never heard of. Looking especially bad for Khan and Vince though, their chances of losing the lawsuit just skyrocketed.

Vince McMahon and Nick Khan sanctioned by judge in WWE merger lawsuit, heightening their burden to prevail at trial - POST Wrestling | Podcasts, News, Reviews | WWE AEW NXT NJPW

Ari Emanuel's offer to indemnify McMahon and help with federal investigations presumed by judge to have influenced TKO merger

www.postwrestling.com

So now what tko won’t own them? Good

 

[GeraldV]

Not looking good for the defendants in the WWE Shareholder lawsuit. Defendants are Nick Khan, Vince McMahon, Triple H, and two execs you probably never heard of. Looking especially bad for Khan and Vince though, their chances of losing the lawsuit just skyrocketed.

Vince McMahon and Nick Khan sanctioned by judge in WWE merger lawsuit, heightening their burden to prevail at trial - POST Wrestling | Podcasts, News, Reviews | WWE AEW NXT NJPW

Ari Emanuel's offer to indemnify McMahon and help with federal investigations presumed by judge to have influenced TKO merger

www.postwrestling.com

That looks really bad for Khan and Vince's defense.

 

[Nightwish]

People will always complain. I don't care about that.

But can you show me an SNME card that is more lackluster than the latest? Show me an SNME main event weaker than Theory/Paul vs Street Profits.

And yeah it was a nice house bc it's friggin Fort Wayne, they probably hadn't been in twenty years. Which is my whole point. Why are they treating an SNME like a random spot show/house show in a market they don't go to much?

Take your pick:

2007: Palumbo vs Tyson Dux, Khali vs Cena, Batista & Benoit vs Edge & MVP, Finlay & Hornswoggle vs Boogeyman & a midget, Kane, Doink, Eugene vs Thorn, Viscera, Umaga
2007: Batista & Kane vs Finlay & Khali, Cena vs Carlito, Holyfield vs Matt Hardy, Punk & Boogeyman vs Morrison & Viscera
2008: Paul London vs Charlie Haas, Bradshaw, Kane, The Legacy vs Cena, Batista, Cryme Tyme, Khali vs Jimmy Wang Yang, Edge vs Jeff Hardy

I could probably keep going. I don't think you realize how mediocre those shows and that time period was, opting to take the convo all the way back to the 80s and the very start of the event. You want the show to be something it hasn't been in decades.

 

[TheApostleSaulSmith]

Take your pick:

2007: Palumbo vs Tyson Dux, Khali vs Cena, Batista & Benoit vs Edge & MVP, Finlay & Hornswoggle vs Boogeyman & a midget, Kane, Doink, Eugene vs Thorn, Viscera, Umaga
2007: Batista & Kane vs Finlay & Khali, Cena vs Carlito, Holyfield vs Matt Hardy, Punk & Boogeyman vs Morrison & Viscera
2008: Paul London vs Charlie Haas, Bradshaw, Kane, The Legacy vs Cena, Batista, Cryme Tyme, Khali vs Jimmy Wang Yang, Edge vs Jeff Hardy

Bolded. All those matches are potential main events. Show me the equivalent on the most recent show.
I see your point on SNME declining since the 80s but...it's not been this bad