Want your men’s college basketball team to contend next year? It might take $10 million

[SHUSource]

Interesting piece by CJ Moore in The Athletic. It's paywalled, and there is plenty more nuance in the article, but I'll share this much of it:

The GM ballparked the price of the current market:

• Borderline starter? “An agent will start at $1.5 million.”

• A definite starter, but not all-conference? “$2.5 million.”

• A player projected to be all-conference? “$3 million and above.”

• A player projected to be an NBA Draft pick? “$3 million floor. Basically, it’s 30 percent of your budget. So if you’ve got $12 million, that guy is likely up to $4 million.”

 

[Piratz]

This makes sense. Can’t imagine many at-large teams were below $8M last year even.

 

[The Crows Nest]

Interesting piece by CJ Moore in The Athletic. It's paywalled, and there is plenty more nuance in the article, but I'll share this much of it:

The GM ballparked the price of the current market:

• Borderline starter? “An agent will start at $1.5 million.”

• A definite starter, but not all-conference? “$2.5 million.”

• A player projected to be all-conference? “$3 million and above.”

• A player projected to be an NBA Draft pick? “$3 million floor. Basically, it’s 30 percent of your budget. So if you’ve got $12 million, that guy is likely up to $4 million.”

At those prices you would need well north of $10 to field a competitive team.

Even if you ignore having any "all conference" players, you would want/need at least 3 "definite starters", then at least 2 borderline starters...and that alone would cost $10.5 million at the numbers above...with zero bench!

you are looking at more like $15 million if those are the going rates, to fill out a roster.

 

[shupat08]

Interesting piece by CJ Moore in The Athletic. It's paywalled, and there is plenty more nuance in the article, but I'll share this much of it:

The GM ballparked the price of the current market:

• Borderline starter? “An agent will start at $1.5 million.”

• A definite starter, but not all-conference? “$2.5 million.”

• A player projected to be all-conference? “$3 million and above.”

• A player projected to be an NBA Draft pick? “$3 million floor. Basically, it’s 30 percent of your budget. So if you’ve got $12 million, that guy is likely up to $4 million.”

And here our admin, staff, and decision makers were saying Hines, Simpkins, and Clarks asks were all outrageous and pie in the sky.

Seems like they are exactly in line with the market. Maybe outrageous and pie in the sky for SHU to pay, but completely in line with the market.

 

[SHUSource]

And here our admin, staff, and decision makers were saying Hines, Simpkins, and Clarks asks were all outrageous and pie in the sky.

Seems like they are exactly in line with the market. Maybe outrageous and pie in the sky for SHU to pay, but completely in line with the market.

If this particular (anonymous) GM quoted in the piece is to be believed, yes. And there's not much reason for him to lie without his name attached to it.

It is possible that he works for a well-funded football school, and the conversations he's having are happening on a higher plane than those at Seton Hall, which would skew the numbers upward a bit, but from everything I've read everywhere, this feels about right.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

And here our admin, staff, and decision makers were saying Hines, Simpkins, and Clarks asks were all outrageous and pie in the sky.

Seems like they are exactly in line with the market. Maybe outrageous and pie in the sky for SHU to pay, but completely in line with the market.

From what I’ve heard, Sha used to be absolutely criminally clueless with market value and all things nil and so stubborn

But now it’s not as much that as we just don’t have it to bring in the upper middle players

 

[NIL BAD]

We've never had it to bring to the upper middle tier players. & you wonder why we need a GM?

 

[Seton75]

From what I’ve heard, Sha used to be absolutely criminally clueless with market value and all things nil and so stubborn...

Just curious. Is this feeling about Sha based on posts here or are there other sources?

 

[dehere23]

From what I’ve heard, Sha used to be absolutely criminally clueless with market value and all things nil and so stubborn

But now it’s not as much that as we just don’t have it to bring in the upper middle players

But from all accounts we do have enough to have retained our 2 best players from last year. Seems we didn't want to allocate that much of the available money to retaining those two players, which is a "philosophy" as opposed to a lack of resources. Or, those players really didn't want to be back here, and not because they were recruited over. If we had so much roster turnover because we were continually upgrading (at least on paper) various roster spots, no one would be concerned. It's the combination of consistently losing our top players and having literally the rest of the roster leave that gets people worked up.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

Just curious. Is this feeling about Sha based on posts here or are there other sources?

Other sources

Other college assistants (who can have bias admittedly)

And kids who we have “negotiated” with in past

 

[PhishingPirate088]

But from all accounts we do have enough to have retained our 2 best players from last year. Seems we didn't want to allocate that much of the available money to retaining those two players, which is a "philosophy" as opposed to a lack of resources. Or, those players really didn't want to be back here, and not because they were recruited over. If we had so much roster turnover because we were continually upgrading (at least on paper) various roster spots, no one would be concerned. It's the combination of consistently losing our top players and having literally the rest of the roster leave that gets people worked up.

It wouldn’t shock me if they just didn’t want to come back

But in no way do we have enough to currently keep both of our best players from last year

 

[radecicco]

I posted same info from the Athletic on the Trove. The article also said that $$$ is the only thing that matters to the players. Fit rarely ever matters.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

I posted same info from the Athletic on the Trove. The article also said that $$$ is the only thing that matters to the players. Fit rarely ever matters.

I disagree with that

Players also want someone who they perceive as better to get them to nba

I’ve heard players say it all the time..now will that come with a discount?..no but it matters

That’s one reason they still all love Coach Cal

 

[radecicco]

I disagree with that

Players also want someone who they perceive as better to get them to nba

I’ve heard players say it all the time..now will that come with a discount?..no but it matters

That’s one reason they still all love Coach Cal

You can disagree all you want but that’s the reality. And Cal doesn’t have to worry about money.

 

[dehere23]

You can disagree all you want but that’s the reality. And Cal doesn’t have to worry about money.

Even most of the top teams have to think about $$ to some extent.

We all know $$$ is a huge factor for so many of these kids and their decisions, but I don't buy so much of what's out there. I view it through the same lens as any professional (or frankly person) making a decision at some point in time about something significant, where money is one, but not the only, factor involved. Sometimes money carries the day by itself, and sometimes it is a multitude of things. You read this stuff in the "portal season" -- and who knows what agenda is driving it, if any -- but then will get 10 stories during the year of really good players who took significantly less money to stay in a better situation (and there were plenty of articles about those last year).

 

[radecicco]

Not being argumentative, but what is significantly less money? Would Hines take $4.5 million to play for Hurley than 4.7 million from Pitino? Is that $200k significant at those levels. Get down to the lower ranks and every dollar matters. I didn’t say never, I said rarely ever. And I do agree that there are some exceptions.

 

[SHUMike]

I would rather see the program move down to division 3 before I gave a nickel towards NIL. Athletes that receive NIL money should be disqualified from scholarships.

 

[dehere23]

Not being argumentative, but what is significantly less money? Would Hines take $4.5 million to play for Hurley than 4.7 million from Pitino? Is that $200k significant at those levels. Get down to the lower ranks and every dollar matters. I didn’t say never, I said rarely ever. And I do agree that there are some exceptions.

I think it is situation-specific. If we lose Budd Clark for a few hundred thousand to a worse situation, shame on whoever is advising him. The kids future is overseas, and while I don't diminish the significance of "a few hundred thousand dollars", after taxes and agent fees, that number starts looking much, much less as to what one actually takes home. These are decisions people make in their professional lives all the time. I've turned down substantial "year 1 guaranteed payments" in my field based on a long term outlook of what makes most sense for my career in all respects. I have to think at least some of these kids do that as well.

 

[radecicco]

I think it is situation-specific. If we lose Budd Clark for a few hundred thousand to a worse situation, shame on whoever is advising him. The kids future is overseas, and while I don't diminish the significance of "a few hundred thousand dollars", after taxes and agent fees, that number starts looking much, much less as to what one actually takes home. These are decisions people make in their professional lives all the time. I've turned down substantial "year 1 guaranteed payments" in my field based on a long term outlook of what makes most sense for my career in all respects. I have to think at least some of these kids do that as well.

Agree with a lot of what you say. My comment would be that you are looking at a multi decade career. These young people are looking at a few years at most and they feel the need to cash in. Let’s see what Holloway can pull together.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

You can disagree all you want but that’s the reality. And Cal doesn’t have to worry about money.

You can say it’s reality all you want but players I’ve talked to..reference coaches to get to the NBA

Cal is considered a god in that and players want to play for him..ask a kid (who is legit) how much first round and total contractual value of $$ coach cal players have made..and they will tell you

 

[PhishingPirate088]

I think it is situation-specific. If we lose Budd Clark for a few hundred thousand to a worse situation, shame on whoever is advising him. The kids future is overseas, and while I don't diminish the significance of "a few hundred thousand dollars", after taxes and agent fees, that number starts looking much, much less as to what one actually takes home. These are decisions people make in their professional lives all the time. I've turned down substantial "year 1 guaranteed payments" in my field based on a long term outlook of what makes most sense for my career in all respects. I have to think at least some of these kids do that as well.

Ok but what is a situation worse than ours

Like what does that mean? Like if he goes to Marist? Fairfield? What about St. Louis?

 

[dehere23]

Agree with a lot of what you say. My comment would be that you are looking at a multi decade career. These young people are looking at a few years at most and they feel the need to cash in. Let’s see what Holloway can pull together.

True, my career horizon is different. But Clark may well have a 10+ year professional career playing after Seton Hall. What league you end up in and what overseas options you have can vary dramatically, including with respect to the financial piece. I know most of them want to "max out", but any good advisor is going to tell them to look at it from varying perspectives, not just the $$. I'm not sure how good Sha is at "selling" that piece of the equation, to the extent it even matters to the kid. We had basically full roster turnover after a disaster season, but now are dealing with full roster turnover after having a good season. I know there is no program in the country immune to this -- most everyone seems to lose 50% or more of the roster -- but for lots of the better schools, you can see kids moving on because the team is upgrading the roster at their respective positions.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

True, my career horizon is different. But Clark may well have a 10+ year professional career playing after Seton Hall. What league you end up in and what overseas options you have can vary dramatically, including with respect to the financial piece. I know most of them want to "max out", but any good advisor is going to tell them to look at it from varying perspectives, not just the $$. I'm not sure how good Sha is at "selling" that piece of the equation, to the extent it even matters to the kid. We had basically full roster turnover after a disaster season, but now are dealing with full roster turnover after having a good season. I know there is no program in the country immune to this -- most everyone seems to lose 50% or more of the roster -- but for lots of the better schools, you can see kids moving on because the team is upgrading the roster at their respective positions.

lol what you just explained pushes them OUT of here

 

[Fishjam]

I don't know how much we have this year but its evident that other Big East teams have stepped up their games this year.

Its not surprising to see UConn get Hines or Nova to sign big-time players but there are several teams that seem to have stepped up their games (and budgets) this year.

Every team that Seton Hall beat out in the standings are having success in the portal.

Providence is signing players left and right and all are highly regarded. Their new coach is humming with the #12 rated class in the country

Creighton's new coach has 3 top transfers, rated #14 Class.

Marquette - Just signed the #3 Overall player in the portal Sananda Fru from Louisville

Xavier - Their GM admitted they were 15% below average among BE teams last year and vowed to not let that happen again. It appears he was a man of his word as Pitno Jr has already signed 4 Top 100 players in The Portal. Their class is rated #4 in the country.

Butler - Was the only team that SH could outspend. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have 4 quality transfers and also added a very talented international star.

DePaul - Even old reliable basement team DePaul is snapping necks and signing checks. They have signed 2 quality 7-footers, a top 75 PG from Arizona State and a starting SG from Wofford. Their class is #19 nationally.

 

[shupat08]

I don't know how much we have this year but its evident that other Big East teams have stepped up their games this year.

Its not surprising to see UConn get Hines or Nova to sign big-time players but there are several teams that seem to have stepped up their games (and budgets) this year.

Every team that Seton Hall beat out in the standings are having success in the portal.

Providence is signing players left and right and all are highly regarded. Their new coach is humming with the #12 rated class in the country

Creighton's new coach has 3 top transfers, rated #14 Class.

Marquette - Just signed the #3 Overall player in the portal Sananda Fru from Louisville

Xavier - Their GM admitted they were 15% below average among BE teams last year and vowed to not let that happen again. It appears he was a man of his word as Pitno Jr has already signed 4 Top 100 players in The Portal. Their class is rated #4 in the country.

Butler - Was the only team that SH could outspend. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have 4 quality transfers and also added a very talented international star.

DePaul - Even old reliable basement team DePaul is snapping necks and signing checks. They have signed 2 quality 7-footers, a top 75 PG from Arizona State and a starting SG from Wofford. Their class is #19 nationally.

"I just want the paaaaaaaaayper, tHat part." - ScHoolboy Q

 

[anon1776442940]

I don't know how much we have this year but its evident that other Big East teams have stepped up their games this year.

Its not surprising to see UConn get Hines or Nova to sign big-time players but there are several teams that seem to have stepped up their games (and budgets) this year.

Every team that Seton Hall beat out in the standings are having success in the portal.

Providence is signing players left and right and all are highly regarded. Their new coach is humming with the #12 rated class in the country

Creighton's new coach has 3 top transfers, rated #14 Class.

Marquette - Just signed the #3 Overall player in the portal Sananda Fru from Louisville

Xavier - Their GM admitted they were 15% below average among BE teams last year and vowed to not let that happen again. It appears he was a man of his word as Pitno Jr has already signed 4 Top 100 players in The Portal. Their class is rated #4 in the country.

Butler - Was the only team that SH could outspend. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have 4 quality transfers and also added a very talented international star.

DePaul - Even old reliable basement team DePaul is snapping necks and signing checks. They have signed 2 quality 7-footers, a top 75 PG from Arizona State and a starting SG from Wofford. Their class is #19 nationally.

Dont be surprised when we finish 9th or 10th

 

[Piratz]

Big East is loading up.

 

[Fishjam]

Big East (minus Seton Hall) is loading up.

fixed it for you

 

[radecicco]

Well don’t look now but good old RU is loading up. Have their back court retained plus new adds. Pike clearly has more money to work with.

 

[donnie-baseball]

And here our admin, staff, and decision makers were saying Hines, Simpkins, and Clarks asks were all outrageous and pie in the sky.

Seems like they are exactly in line with the market. Maybe outrageous and pie in the sky for SHU to pay, but completely in line with the market.

I haven't read or heard anything that resembles SHU's position as being that. If there's $8mil to spend and Hines and Budd want $6M, how do we field a team?

 

[donnie-baseball]

Other sources

Other college assistants (who can have bias admittedly)

And kids who we have “negotiated” with in past

Any of them on record? No? Any firsthand to you? NO? Thanks.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

Any of them on record? No? Any firsthand to you? NO? Thanks.

Every one of them firsthand with me. Thanks.

 

[shu67]

Well, let's hold our collective breaths and see what develops in terms of kids coming in and what Sha can cobble together as a team given the lack of funds to really compete for top talent. So far, we are all disappointed on our 2 best players leaving but maybe Sha and the GM can make magic happen. There is still time to right the pirate ship and keep it afloat!

 

[donnie-baseball]

Every one of them firsthand with me. Thanks.

In your words "LOL."

 

[ironlung75]

I know that Budd was asking a lot. Does he get it? Or does Sha and the new GM talk him into coming back? Also we have four players in the portal; Simpkins, Fisher, Dar, and Goodwill, how much are they going to get and from who? Dar is definitely worth hanging onto if we can without breaking the bank. Simpkins could be a shooter, almost was but not quite. Is it worth seeing how they do then if it isn’t too much countering them?

 

[PhishingPirate088]

In your words "LOL."

Good one