Start blaming the school. Not the players, coaches or agents

JTSHU

Senior
Feb 9, 2015
543
467
63
SHU and every other school has no problem charging us the equivalent of a mortgage for a piece of paper thats worthless for most majors. The coaches are doing their best w their budgets, players have 4 yrs to maximize their talents and agents are repping their players.
If you want to compete, make the investment. Like everything else in life, if u make the investment and compete and it pays off, u win.
 

Merge

Freshman
Nov 5, 2001
47
81
18
SHU and every other school has no problem charging us the equivalent of a mortgage for a piece of paper thats worthless for most majors. The coaches are doing their best w their budgets, players have 4 yrs to maximize their talents and agents are repping their players.
If you want to compete, make the investment. Like everything else in life, if u make the investment and compete and it pays off, u win.

We're a small school with a small alumni base. Short of a salary cap or one of us winning the powerball (and then be willing to burn that money) we're kinda screwed right now. The school should invest what they can from the revenue share, but I think I'd prefer SHU be financially sound as an economic institution than start to throw many at the absurd NIL environment.
 

GloryDays85

Redshirt
May 16, 2023
27
30
12
Providence's former President was about as aggressive and forward thinking in the NIL area and building up the basketball program in a big business world.

Providence's problem was that the new President and AD made a terrible hire in English. He was in over his head. They appear to have gotten it right this time around with their new hire (results on the court though will need to be seen to confirm such).

But forward thinking on the NIL collective years ago may be able to finally produce some real results on the court. They are a very small catholic school, so it will say sometime if they can compete in this new NIL world.

Father Shanley is doing the same thing at St. John's and has more resources in donors (Big Mike and a bunch of Wall Street veterans) and a slate of all Big East games at a sold out or nearly sold out MSG. HOF coach is providing the juice to rally a fanbase and well-heeled donors that were dormant for decades.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bud Boomer

dehere23

All-Conference
Feb 28, 2015
1,148
1,184
113
We've always been poorly resourced, but we had some sharp thinkers during the Willard years which helped overcome those challenges. We seem to be very light on sharp thinkers now.
Willard was also really good at keeping the kids he wanted. That was one of the things I always thought was his best or better attributes. Certainly not a silver-tongued recruiter, as many great coaches were in that era and still are to this day. But once KW had them in the door -- even when transferring became more prolific -- he kept his best talent and players by and large.
 

Gritty5837

All-Conference
Nov 28, 2021
1,762
3,753
113
Well there’s some subtle clues being dropped that at least Clark didn’t want to play for Sha again. Not sure what’s being said on the Trove but in another thread it was said Clark wasn’t staying even if we did offer 2.5 mil. That tells me 1 of 2 things, maybe both. A school that can compete in March wants him and that he doesn’t want to play for Sha again / the relationship soured.
 

PirateBlue08

Senior
Jul 25, 2025
476
475
63
Well there’s some subtle clues being dropped that at least Clark didn’t want to play for Sha again. Not sure what’s being said on the Trove but in another thread it was said Clark wasn’t staying even if we did offer 2.5 mil. That tells me 1 of 2 things, maybe both. A school that can compete in March wants him and that he doesn’t want to play for Sha again / the relationship soured.
Yea, it tells me a couple or tree things about the mayor of munchkin land. A.) Sha knows that kid from Merrimack can be gotten for half of what Clark asked for B.) He wasn't coming back either way
 
Last edited:

HALL85

Heisman
Jul 5, 2001
29,893
11,088
113
We’ve always been a poverty school. The galling part is why we have such bad connections with alumni bc that could change things.
Sometimes the “club” doesn’t want to let new members in because they’ll feel threatened (jcalz?).

Or maybe our most successful alumni are smarter than we think and are placing their bets on things that are more important to the universities future.
 

MBryantFan88

Freshman
Nov 4, 2018
90
79
18
Willard was also really good at keeping the kids he wanted. That was one of the things I always thought was his best or better attributes. Certainly not a silver-tongued recruiter, as many great coaches were in that era and still are to this day. But once KW had them in the door -- even when transferring became more prolific -- he kept his best talent and players by and large.
Uh, this was during non-NIL days. He lost his starting back court so far this cycle...
 
  • Like
Reactions: mbraue

dehere23

All-Conference
Feb 28, 2015
1,148
1,184
113
Uh, this was during non-NIL days. He lost his starting back court so far this cycle...
There was NIL. Not to this extent in most cases, but there was NIL and all kinds of perks.

And transferring became a thing and was becoming more prolific each year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Piratz

SHUSource

All-Conference
Jun 3, 2001
41,878
4,036
48
The school is not in charge of making alums successfull nor philanthropic. Thats the individuals responsibility.
Respectfully, it absolutely is the university’s job and it’s why we have a staff of development professionals — to drive that philanthropy. As part of the larger alumni relations and communications function, they are not all fundraisers, but as a collective, their jobs are to stoke alumni affinity for Seton Hall by creating communications vehicles that begin to do that — things that make alumni feel pride, nostalgia, affinity, and kinship with their alma mater.

This in converted into driving attendance at events and participation in other alumni initiatives — volunteering, mentorship, etc. — as well as annual giving. This is where the group I call the “nickel and dimers“ are important, and in this context, I don’t use the term disparagingly. Annual giving, most of which occurs in small amounts — $50 to, say, $5,000 — don’t move the needle on operating budgets, but they create habits and a sense of investment. Some will continue to give at this level forever, but others can be trained to treat this as the runway to larger levels of giving, ranging from large campaign pledges to estate gifts, or just simply escalated levels of annual giving. (annual giving is also what drives the metric of “giving rate,” which I think is still a factor in the U.S. News & World Report ranking.)

Then you have your prospect researchers — the people who comb through publicly available records And other internal and external data to identify those who can become more significant donors. They are identified through home and other real estate holdings, high income professions, active engagement with the university (steady giving, frequent participation in events, etc.), and other signifiers of ability to give.

Reports on those people are then turned over to the various development people — the actual fundraisers — based on the type of gifts they think the alum would be most inclined to give. This begins the cultivation process — the process by which the school learns more about them and what makes them tick — their interests, passions, aspirations, and what they hold most closely about their time at Seton Hall. And as this relationship deepens and becomes (hopefully) more authentic, they begin to talk about giving to Seton Hall in more practical, concrete terms. They will make a proposal to the prospect based on what they think their ability to give is, essentially making their pitch for a type of gift. This often includes a lot of back-and-forth negotiation, but when an agreement is reached, this is conversion.

I have no illusions about Seton Hall and the makeup of our alumni base but I also know where we fit into the world, and I know we have people who are very capable of giving at much higher levels if we were finding them, identifying them, cultivating them, soliciting them, and converting them with skill. And I also know Seton Hall can do better producing materials that appeal to the rank and file. Our magazine is terrible. The annual report that came yesterday is not good, either. Both are “straight to the recycling” pieces. That’s on the university.

This is all salesmanship; these collateral materials are your advertising. They should have the advantage of built-in brand loyalty but even still, if your consumers think the brand isn’t cool, they will spend elsewhere.
 
Last edited:

Piratz

All-Conference
Mar 24, 2004
1,377
2,740
113
Respectfully, it absolutely is the university’s job and it’s why we have a staff of development professionals — to drive that philanthropy. As part of the larger alumni relations and communications function, they are not all fundraisers, but as a collective, their jobs are to stoke alumni affinity for Seton Hall by creating communications vehicles that begin to do that — things that make alumni feel pride, nostalgia, affinity, and kinship with their alma mater.

This in converted into driving attendance at events and participation in other alumni initiatives — volunteering, mentorship, etc. — as well as annual giving. This is where the group I call the “nickel and dimers“ are important, and in this context, I don’t use the term disparagingly. Annual giving, most of which occurs in small amounts — $50 to, say, $5,000 — don’t move the needle on operating budgets, but they create habits and a sense of investment. Some will continue to give at this level forever, but others can be trained to treat this as the runway to larger levels of giving, ranging from large campaign pledges to estate gifts, or just simply escalated levels of annual giving. (annual giving is also what drives the metric of “giving rate,” which I think is still a factor in the U.S. News & World Report ranking.)

Then you have your prospect researchers — the people who comb through publicly available records And other internal and external data to identify those who can become more significant donors. They are identified through home and other real estate holdings, high income professions, active engagement with the university (steady giving, frequent participation in events, etc.), and other signifiers of ability to give.

Reports on those people are then turned over to the various development people — the actual fundraisers — based on the type of gifts they think the alum would be most inclined to give. This begins the cultivation process — the process by which the school learns more about them and what makes them tick — their interests, passions, aspirations, and what they hold most closely about their time at Seton Hall. And as this relationship deepens and becomes (hopefully) more authentic, they begin to talk about giving to Seton Hall in more practical, concrete terms. They will make a proposal to the prospect based on what they think their ability to give is, essentially making their pitch for a type of gift. This often includes a lot of back-and-forth negotiation, but when an agreement is reached, this is conversion.

I have no illusions about Seton Hall and the makeup of our alumni base but I also know where we fit into the world, and I know we have people who are very capable of giving at much higher levels if we were finding them, identifying them, cultivating them, soliciting them, and converting them with skill. And I also know Seton Hall can do better producing materials that appeal to the rank and file. Our magazine is terrible. The annual report that came yesterday is not good, either. Both are “straight to the recycling” pieces. That’s on the university.

This is all salesmanship; these collateral materials are your advertising. They should have the advantage of built-in brand loyalty but even still, if your consumers think the brand isn’t cool, they will spend elsewhere.
They should hire @SHUSource

👏👏👏
 

SHUSource

All-Conference
Jun 3, 2001
41,878
4,036
48
They should hire @SHUSource

👏👏👏
Ha ha! If they can’t do better than me, we’re really sunk!

By the way, I don’t mean to imply that any of this work is easy — it isn’t. It’s incredibly time-consuming and delicate, especially at the high levels. That’s why universities will invest in really good and talented pros when they have them. I hope Seton Hall does.
 

Fishjam

All-Conference
Mar 27, 2016
691
2,416
93
Willard was also really good at keeping the kids he wanted. That was one of the things I always thought was his best or better attributes. Certainly not a silver-tongued recruiter, as many great coaches were in that era and still are to this day. But once KW had them in the door -- even when transferring became more prolific -- he kept his best talent and players by and large.
Great point. Willard had a lot of faults but he was good at building up his best players, giving them confidence and freedom on offense. He sold them on making them the best individual player possible through individual instruction. He often used hyperbole but he was never shy about talking up his stars in the press and it made it easier to get his players to return year after year. They believed in Seton Hall culture.

Granted this was in a different time when transfers had to sit out and pay 4 play was under the table and not nearly at the amounts of today. But the lesson is every era has its own rules and Programs and HCs must find their place, adapt, accentuate their positives, improve deficiencies and learn how to thrive. Sha and today's leadership has not found their way yet. They need to find their sweet spot, its not impossible.

Sha can get the best out of teams by getting them to play hard as hell, but that has proven to not be enough. 3 of his 4 years at Seton Hall his teams have finished 58th, 51st and 50th in KenPom but anywhere from 1 to 15 spots from making the NCAAT. This was the floor in the later Willard years and of the Program Sha inherited but he won the games he had to and got those teams in the NCAAT and had 3 teams that were very good, Top 30. Sha is far from Top 30 but close to the NCAAT-level which is the line of success for small HM teams like SH. He has to make changes and get better.

On the court, his teams are far too defensive-minded, this is an offensive era and you need to be able to win different types of games. He needs to get better about finding players that will be willing to spend multiple years at Seton Hall, who will accept a bit less because they believe SH is a home for them and will make them great players. He needs to be better at building up the individual about having a strategy for the Portal season that has been evaluated many months in advance. We are always going to be behind in money but we have to find our niche the way other teams of all levels of wealth have at returning good players and attracting good players in the Portal.
 
Last edited:

HallX2

Senior
Mar 25, 2005
2,606
801
73
Respectfully, it absolutely is the university’s job and it’s why we have a staff of development professionals — to drive that philanthropy. As part of the larger alumni relations and communications function, they are not all fundraisers, but as a collective, their jobs are to stoke alumni affinity for Seton Hall by creating communications vehicles that begin to do that — things that make alumni feel pride, nostalgia, affinity, and kinship with their alma mater.

This in converted into driving attendance at events and participation in other alumni initiatives — volunteering, mentorship, etc. — as well as annual giving. This is where the group I call the “nickel and dimers“ are important, and in this context, I don’t use the term disparagingly. Annual giving, most of which occurs in small amounts — $50 to, say, $5,000 — don’t move the needle on operating budgets, but they create habits and a sense of investment. Some will continue to give at this level forever, but others can be trained to treat this as the runway to larger levels of giving, ranging from large campaign pledges to estate gifts, or just simply escalated levels of annual giving. (annual giving is also what drives the metric of “giving rate,” which I think is still a factor in the U.S. News & World Report ranking.)

Then you have your prospect researchers — the people who comb through publicly available records And other internal and external data to identify those who can become more significant donors. They are identified through home and other real estate holdings, high income professions, active engagement with the university (steady giving, frequent participation in events, etc.), and other signifiers of ability to give.

Reports on those people are then turned over to the various development people — the actual fundraisers — based on the type of gifts they think the alum would be most inclined to give. This begins the cultivation process — the process by which the school learns more about them and what makes them tick — their interests, passions, aspirations, and what they hold most closely about their time at Seton Hall. And as this relationship deepens and becomes (hopefully) more authentic, they begin to talk about giving to Seton Hall in more practical, concrete terms. They will make a proposal to the prospect based on what they think their ability to give is, essentially making their pitch for a type of gift. This often includes a lot of back-and-forth negotiation, but when an agreement is reached, this is conversion.

I have no illusions about Seton Hall and the makeup of our alumni base but I also know where we fit into the world, and I know we have people who are very capable of giving at much higher levels if we were finding them, identifying them, cultivating them, soliciting them, and converting them with skill. And I also know Seton Hall can do better producing materials that appeal to the rank and file. Our magazine is terrible. The annual report that came yesterday is not good, either. Both are “straight to the recycling” pieces. That’s on the university.

This is all salesmanship; these collateral materials are your advertising. They should have the advantage of built-in brand loyalty but even still, if your consumers think the brand isn’t cool, they will spend elsewhere.
This is absurd and it is at the heart of many of our problems in our country. Seton Hall provides an opportunity for a quality education. Many will avail themselves of it and some will not. If you float through school and so not truly educate yourself it's only your fault. Not the university’s. Placement help and the like is nothing more than a push to get you started. For myself I found my own jobs and career after receiving a fine education at SHU. True success and a commitment to giving back rests with the individual. A view that it's the schools role explains why many here do not support the school financially but only complain about it. And I'd bet those who are successful have made it through leveraging their education. Just one man’s view and this what I tell my own children: Study, learn and work hard. Don't blame anyone else for your own outcome. What advice do you give?
 
Last edited:

hallwins

Senior
Sep 7, 2001
453
638
93
This is absurd and it is at the heart of many of our problems in our country. Seton Hall provides an opportunity for a quality education. Many will avail themselves of it and some will not. If you float through school and so not truly educate yourself it's only your fault. Not the university’s. Placement help and the like is nothing more than a push to get you started. For myself I found my own jobs and career after receiving a fine education at SHU. True success and a commitment to giving back rests with the individual. A view that it's the schools role explains why many here do not support the school financially but only complain about it. And I'd bet those who are successful have made it through leveraging their education. Just one man’s view and this what I tell my own children: Study, learn and work hard. Don't blame anyone else for your own outcome. What advice do you give?
None of what you say I disagree with other than the fact that institutions have to inspire allegiance and a sense of community. Otherwise, what you are describing is a transactional relationship. No one on this board regularly has a transactional relationship with Seton Hall; we are invested.

Providence, Georgetown, BC and many other Jesuit schools build allegiance.

An Augustinian school like Villanova does.

Duke does.

Frankly, Rutgers seems to as well.

Alumni giving and support has to be cultivated and then as you say it is an individual choice as to participation and at what level.
 

SHUSource

All-Conference
Jun 3, 2001
41,878
4,036
48
This is absurd and it is at the heart of many of our problems in our country. Seton Hall provides an opportunity for a quality education. Many will avail themselves of it and some will not. If you float through school and so not truly educate yourself it's only your fault. Not the university’s. Placement help and the like is nothing more than a push to get you started. For myself I found my own jobs and career after receiving a fine education at SHU. True success and a commitment to giving back rests with the individual. A view that it's the schools role explains why many here do not support the school financially but only complain about it. And I'd bet those who are successful have made it through leveraging their education. Just one man’s view and this what I tell my own children: Study, learn and work hard. Don't blame anyone else for your own outcome. What advice do you give?
I agree completely with you about the responsibility of the individual to work hard as a student and leverage that education to make your place in the world. I did that, too, and also with no career-services help from the university. I have said many times that I loved my experience at Seton Hall and that experience — to which I gave myself totally — was formative. I still fall back on things I learned there because I never looked at it as career training so much as a forum by which I would become a fuller. More complete person. My classes in ethics, for instance, gave me a framework to understand so many issues of actions and consequences more than they trained me to do a job, at least as far as the hard professional skills go.

But — and this was my point in the prior post — if proceeding as if the commitment to giving back rested with the, individual were part of every college and university’s business plan, half of them, including Seton Hall, would be out of business today. Because once the initial transaction — we give them tuition, the educate us — is complete, it’s complete. The account is squared. But do you think has created the culture of “giving back?” We don’t give philanthropically to cardiologists who transformed our lives by extending them with lifesaving surgeries. Should we?

Universities utterly depend on the philanthropy of alumni to continue, which is why they have built in these business units dedicated exclusively to alumni relations and development. They know that without that work, the “giving back“ would be reduced to a minuscule fraction of what it otherwise is. They are fundamental to these institutions continuing to exist. What I outlined in my previous post was just to explain the framework of how it happens in a way that it performed by universities that are determined to thrive. I never considered the possibility that anyone would think this apparatus isn’t necessary. It is as necessary to them as oxygen is to us.
 

The_Hall

Senior
Feb 23, 2025
582
455
63
That role is fulfilled by providing each student with a quality education. What you do with it is your responsibility. That's the hard truth of life as an adult.
if it was a better education they would produce better alumni.