What decision would you make?

[Maroon Eagle]

I really liked the high speed rail between Madrid and Barcelona….

Spain's incredible £17bn train line between its two largest cities that runs at 217mph | World | News | Express.co.uk

The high-speed rail line takes passengers between the continent's greatest cities, Madrid and Barcelona.

www.express.co.uk

 

[40 acres and a mule]

1) High speed rail is highly subsidized by the government, no matter the country. Could Europe pay for all of their social programs and rail service if the United States taxpayer did not pay for their defense? Could Japan?
2) Do any of those countries have anything similar to the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of private property without just compensation? I do not know. I highly doubt if Morocco does.
3) Is the population density anywhere in the US as great as Japan and Europe? I suspect maybe the Northeast, but I doubt about anywhere else.
4) Do any of these countries have the violent crime problems that we do, that seem to be concentrated in large cities near where our train stations are?

 

[L4Dawg]

high speed trains have proven to be an extraordinarily good thing in multiple other countries. WTF are we doing wrong?

To everybody who is “America first”, this is literally one of the things that needs to get figured out

The difference is size. We are not going to ever have a true national HS rail network here. The distances are just too great. A lot of places here where it would work (The Northeast Corridor, SoCal, Bay Area, Texas Triangle, Milwaukee-Detroit) are so built up that the real estate costs to lay the new lines would be cost prohibitive by themselves. European cities are very compact compared to ours. You hit built up areas a long way out of the city center here. I love rail travel in Europe, as long as it's a 3-4 hour trip tops. You can go from London to Edinburgh in 4 hours on their regular rail network.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

1) High speed rail is highly subsidized by the government, no matter the country. Could Europe pay for all of their social programs and rail service if the United States taxpayer did not pay for their defense? Could Japan?
2) Do any of those countries have anything similar to the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of private property without just compensation? I do not know. I highly doubt if Morocco does.
3) Is the population density anywhere in the US as great as Japan and Europe? I suspect maybe the Northeast, but I doubt about anywhere else.
4) Do any of these countries have the violent crime problems that we do, that seem to be concentrated in large cities near where our train stations are?

You make some very good points.

 

[John Deaux VII]

There are several reasons why high-speed rail hasn't taken off in America. I think in certain, specific areas it can be successful (northeast corridor has some, texas metro connect) but this pie in the sky idea that all of America should be like Europe and have high speed commuter rail is just not feasible.

1. Geography is a major factor considering the United States is massive in comparison to Europe.
2. Majority of our major cities were built with cars in mind, and we have become a car centric nation with the build out of our interstate system. around a century ago the major players in the car industry (ford, firestone etc) agreed to push cars over trains.
3. As a nation we prioritize freight rail over passenger rail.
4. Self driving cars are already coming onto the scene and they will just get better and better. It would be a massive waste of money to go and build out a passenger rail infrastructure when in the next couple of decades, the majority will have fully autonomous self-driving vehicles.

The time for America to have fully functioning passenger rail line everywhere was over 100 years ago. The time has passed and we opted for cars and planes.

Size, geography, and the timing of the technology. The US interstate system was basically complete by the time high speed rail became a thing.

 

[ababyatemydingo]

Maybe CA should have taken more of the Brightline approach rather than start from scratch. And honestly, if I had to travel from Orlando to Miami, I think Brightline would be my first choice.

Brightline is not really a good model to follow. As of March 2026, they are buried in debt, their bond rating just got downgraded to junk, causing their CEO to get fired, and are having to hike fares to try to get to a positive cash flow

 

[paindonthurt]

I already clearly stated my view on that.

So you think it’s a disaster right?

 

[patdog]

Brightline is not really a good model to follow. As of March 2026, they are buried in debt, their bond rating just got downgraded to junk, causing their CEO to get fired, and are having to hike fares to try to get to a positive cash flow

Agree. But that’s a private company that is actually carrying 3,000,000 passengers per year on high speed rail in less than a decade.

 

[paindonthurt]

I have seen that Florida rail referenced as a comparison before and know it upgraded existing rail line and is hundreds of miles shorter than the CA plan.
I don't know a lot about the Florida line, but to me that is a fundamentally different scenario and obviously reduces time line and cost by years...decades even.

It's cool that a higher speed option exists and was set up for less and quicker- 3MM passengers per year sure seems like a lot and shows there was demand.

Yeah fundamentally different in one is way more EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE than the other.

Why? Government.

 

[paindonthurt]

Similarly, each time I drive into and through the Chicago metro, which is a few times a year, I think about how the national interstate system was created at the perfect time and way.
It simply wouldn't be possible in today's world.

I disagree that it's because American 'want to' doesn't exist.

It’s bc of government.

 

[paindonthurt]

I agree. You could build the interstate system like that back in the day because labor costs were low, and there was a hell of alot less red tape.

Completely different world nowadays

Labor cost were low and so was taxation. WASH.

red tape and corruption is the problem

 

[mstateglfr]

Yeah fundamentally different in one is way more EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE than the other.

Why? Government.

I clearly explained the fundamental difference I was referring to, that I think largely explains why the FL line was set up quickly.

Yes, how it was set up and operated is another difference in the two examples.

 

[paindonthurt]

I clearly explained the fundamental difference I was referring to, that I think largely explains why the FL line was set up quickly.

Yes, how it was set up and operated is another difference in the two examples.

You explained something but were wrong.

the deal in Cali is 17ed up bc the system is 17ed up.

if a private company was building the same GD thing anywhere else they’d be way 17ing ahead of where Cali is. FACT.

 

[ckDOG]

1) High speed rail is highly subsidized by the government, no matter the country. Could Europe pay for all of their social programs and rail service if the United States taxpayer did not pay for their defense? Could Japan?
2) Do any of those countries have anything similar to the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of private property without just compensation? I do not know. I highly doubt if Morocco does.
3) Is the population density anywhere in the US as great as Japan and Europe? I suspect maybe the Northeast, but I doubt about anywhere else.
4) Do any of these countries have the violent crime problems that we do, that seem to be concentrated in large cities near where our train stations are?

I've always wondered what % of our accumulated deficit could have been in theory invoiced out to other countries for defense services rendered.

I hope we still have allies and they remember this when we inevitably belly up.

 

[mstateglfr]

You explained something but were wrong.

the deal in Cali is 17ed up bc the system is 17ed up.

if a private company was building the same GD thing anywhere else they’d be way 17ing ahead of where Cali is. FACT.

Calm down. We are talking about a hypothetical here. There is no 'FACT' to firmly claim.

- I think the fact that the FL line was able to use existing track and corridor significantly reduced delays that have impacted CA.
- You think CA is delayed because government is wasteful, fraudulent, and abuses funds...though you have not offered up details to support that, and you ignore delays that are out of the state's hands.

Whether one would be significantly different in a different scenario is a hypothetical. No need to be aggressive in response.

 

[paindonthurt]

Calm down. We are talking about a hypothetical here. There is no 'FACT' to firmly claim.

- I think the fact that the FL line was able to use existing track and corridor significantly reduced delays that have impacted CA.
- You think CA is delayed because government is wasteful, fraudulent, and abuses funds...though you have not offered up details to support that, and you ignore delays that are out of the state's hands.

Whether one would be significantly different in a different scenario is a hypothetical. No need to be aggressive in response.

I don’t need details

bc I know it’s a fact a private business would be further along than Cali is

 

[patdog]

I've always wondered what % of our accumulated deficit could have been in theory invoiced out to other countries for defense services rendered.

I hope we still have allies and they remember this when we inevitably belly up.

A good chunk I’m sure. But we tried isolationism twice & it didn’t work out well either time.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Similarly, each time I drive into and through the Chicago metro, which is a few times a year, I think about how the national interstate system was created at the perfect time and way.
It simply wouldn't be possible in today's world.

I disagree that it's because American 'want to' doesn't exist.

Of course you do. Wouldn't expect anything else.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Taking land, wiping out wildlife, using cheap immigrant labor, and massive corruption is about as American as it gets.

Not just American. Happened all over the world since the beginning of history. Gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.

 

[bully12]

There are several reasons why high-speed rail hasn't taken off in America. I think in certain, specific areas it can be successful (northeast corridor has some, texas metro connect) but this pie in the sky idea that all of America should be like Europe and have high speed commuter rail is just not feasible.

1. Geography is a major factor considering the United States is massive in comparison to Europe.
2. Majority of our major cities were built with cars in mind, and we have become a car centric nation with the build out of our interstate system. around a century ago the major players in the car industry (ford, firestone etc) agreed to push cars over trains.
3. As a nation we prioritize freight rail over passenger rail.
4. Self driving cars are already coming onto the scene and they will just get better and better. It would be a massive waste of money to go and build out a passenger rail infrastructure when in the next couple of decades, the majority will have fully autonomous self-driving vehicles.

The time for America to have fully functioning passenger rail line everywhere was over 100 years ago. The time has passed and we opted for cars and planes.

And self-driving cars would decrease road/traffic congestion how exactly?

 

[L4Dawg]

Meanwhile, Brightline in Florida is a private high speed railway in Florida. Started company in 2012, started construction in 2014, and opened first segment for paying riders in 2018. Currently served over 3,000,000 riders per year between Miami & Orlando.

From what I saw it hasn't served a million total yet. It has only been completed to Orlando for a few months. It is projected to serve a little under three million this year. Miami to Orlando makes sense. Big hub airport in Miami and lots of foreign visitors going to see the mouse and South Beach. Also, once you get a few miles inland, lots of open space to lay track in.

 

[Napoleon378]

And self-driving cars would decrease road/traffic congestion how exactly?

Where did I say it would decrease road/traffic congestion?

My point with that is once self-driving becomes more mainstream those longer drives become much easier and palatable to do. Not to mention we obviously already have passenger car infrastructure built out everywhere. Hypothetically, high speed rail all over the place would be great it just doesn't make any sense to try and build that out in the year 2026. We have bigger fish to fry and tech that's coming onto the scene quickly that would lessen the positive impact of high-speed passenger rail.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

And self-driving cars would decrease road/traffic congestion how exactly?

It would revolutionize it. Traffic is very easy to predict. Most issues are human error, i.e. idiot drivers.