A little perspective on class rankings and transfer rankings

[four_every_hour]

Going back to 2021 (since 2020 had no tourney) we can see that having a team full of high transfers or recruits is just not what is needed to win the championship. I see a lot of people on this site saying we are only going after the worst mid majors, or we are screwed since we aren't getting any top high school recruits. That's just simply not needed in this day of basketball anymore.

 

[DelkBowl]

And Uk still sucking

 

[JwUKFan11]

 

[JwUKFan11]

But seriously, though, stop acting like good players are all of a sudden a bad thing to have. We need talented players, and while they can come from lower ranked players, many of the top ones are more guaranteed. Pope looked at many of them last year but didn't close on them.

 

[Anon200440]

you know your team is in purgatory when you have to ask if it's a good thing to have good players

 

[four_every_hour]

But seriously, though, stop acting like good players are all of a sudden a bad thing to have. We need talented players, and while they can come from lower ranked players, many of the top ones are more guaranteed. Pope looked at many of them last year but didn't close on them.

I'm not saying good players are a bad thing to have. I'm saying that if news came out that we have a starting five of players that all rank outside of top 50 and one that ranks 46 everyone would freak out. But Florida won a championship with that starting lineup.

And according to the rankings, top talented players are not "guaranteed" to do anything for you. Look at Duke. Their avg ranking of players is 20 over the last three years. ZERO championships.

 

[Catlogic1552]

I understand your point. I also think by this list it’s obvious that quality coaching comes into play at some point.

 

[four_every_hour]

I understand your point. I also think by this list it’s obvious that quality coaching comes into play at some point.

Well we are stuck with Pope another year either way. So I agree, but if we can get rid of Mark Fox and get someone in here that is a defense guru, with the right transfers we can be alright.

 

[Anon200440]

I'm not saying good players are a bad thing to have. I'm saying that if news came out that we have a starting five of players that all rank outside of top 50 and one that ranks 46 everyone would freak out. But Florida won a championship with that starting lineup.

And according to the rankings, top talented players are not "guaranteed" to do anything for you. Look at Duke. Their avg ranking of players is 20 over the last three years. ZERO championships.

i mean pope has not high ranked rosters like golden and does worse so idk ur point

 

[UKreturntogreatness]

I'm not saying good players are a bad thing to have. I'm saying that if news came out that we have a starting five of players that all rank outside of top 50 and one that ranks 46 everyone would freak out. But Florida won a championship with that starting lineup.

And according to the rankings, top talented players are not "guaranteed" to do anything for you. Look at Duke. Their avg ranking of players is 20 over the last three years. ZERO championships.

If the measurement is only the final championship there will be disappointed teams over and over. I'd take Duke's season over ours any day except for the way it ended for them. If not for a bonehead play they would have been in the Final Four. Kentucky? All the winning teams have very talented players especially at least one great strong front court player and one great guard who can drive and get you a basket despite contact in crunch time. Of course it is more than 2 but it takes at least 2 elites in those positions.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Great post OP. I’ve had this discussion many times with folks and I’ll give you a fair warning. Most of the people you interact with are going to miss the point. Every team needs talent, but stacking recruiting classes and PR wins does not equate to winning at the highest level. It isn’t copium — it’s honest assessment.

 

[four_every_hour]

If the measurement is only the final championship there will be disappointed teams over and over. I'd take Duke's season over ours any day except for the way it ended for them. If not for a bonehead play they would have been in the Final Four. Kentucky? All the winning teams have very talented players especially at least one great strong front court player and one great guard who can drive and get you a basket despite contact in crunch time. Of course it is more than 2 but it takes at least 2 elites in those positions.

The majority on this forum would be questioning Scheyer if he was our coach and we had the last three seasons he had..

 

[cornbreadnmilk]

A lot of coping going on right now....

 

[Bookerfan67]

I think we should, at least consider, dropping down to Division 2 next season.

 

[20MRoster]

These new data guys that keep hoping on this board are seriously amateurish. They are hell bent on "proving" that this garbage the current administration is feeding us is actually next-level strategy. There are so many variables and environmental factors left out of this "analysis".

If OP's "work" were presented at any serious fund / firm / LP, they wouldn't get called back after their internship.

There's no point trying to get them to understand anything either, they are stuck in their circle-jerk.

 

[AllBall]

I'm not saying good players are a bad thing to have. I'm saying that if news came out that we have a starting five of players that all rank outside of top 50 and one that ranks 46 everyone would freak out. But Florida won a championship with that starting lineup.

And according to the rankings, top talented players are not "guaranteed" to do anything for you. Look at Duke. Their avg ranking of players is 20 over the last three years. ZERO championships.

True but their floor was elite 8's. Give me talent with a chance to win the title but a guarantee top 10-15 team.
The last 7-8 yrs we haven't had a single team that finished inside the freaking top 10.

 

[Bichoto]

Popes method is clearly working 46-26. 3-2 ncaa tournament. Why get top recruits? Could you imagine if we had dukes top classes the past 2 years and finished 70-7, and 7-2 in ncaa tournament. Gross. 46-26 is way better when players care about the name on the front of the jersey.

 

[JwUKFan11]

I'm not saying good players are a bad thing to have. I'm saying that if news came out that we have a starting five of players that all rank outside of top 50 and one that ranks 46 everyone would freak out. But Florida won a championship with that starting lineup.

And according to the rankings, top talented players are not "guaranteed" to do anything for you. Look at Duke. Their avg ranking of players is 20 over the last three years. ZERO championships.

What a dumb argument, Duke has been to what, 2 elite eights and a final four over that stretch? They lost 3 games this year by a combined 5 points.
Just because you can find a few examples of teams winning with way less talent doesn’t mean that is what should be expected of a team constructed that way.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Great post OP. I’ve had this discussion many times with folks and I’ll give you a fair warning. Most of the people you interact with are going to miss the point. Every team needs talent, but stacking recruiting classes and PR wins does not equate to winning at the highest level. It isn’t copium — it’s honest assessment.

This! Lmao @ “copium”! Even when the hard evidence is presented to folks, they STILL refuse to back off their stance. It’s pretty damn incredible, isn’t it?! Blah, blah, elite players! Blah, blah, five star recruits! Blah, blah, Mark Poop sucks! **** gets old.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

What a dumb argument, Duke has been to what, 2 elite eights and a final four over that stretch? They lost 3 games this year by a combined 5 points.
Just because you can find a few examples of teams winning with way less talent doesn’t mean that is what should be expected of a team constructed that way.

Lmao I mean he just laid out the starting lineups of the most recent FIVE national champions and their “rankings”. Are E8s and F4s the real goal here or are titles?! Also, duke is a poor argument when judging their “success”.

Two points here: 1. They’re basically the only team still recruiting by the OAD model and 2. It’s very difficult to gauge duke’s “success”, considering the obvious bias they receive. I mean, they shot better than a 2-1 ratio on FTs through four games in the tournament this year and still came up short! They also had the best player in the country two years in a row and came up short. Hell, any other team would’ve lost that first and second round game. The refs saved them both times. EDIT: also, duke’s NIL budget is double ours, even IF we spent 22 million this past season.

 

[Bichoto]

Lmao I mean he just laid out the starting lineups of the most recent FIVE national champions and their “rankings”. Are E8s and F4s the real goal here or are titles?! Also, duke is a poor argument when judging their “success”.

Two points here: 1. They’re basically the only team still recruiting by the OAD model and 2. It’s very difficult to gauge duke’s “success”, considering the obvious bias they receive. I mean, they shot better than a 2-1 ratio on FTs through four games in the tournament this year and still came up short! They also had the best player in the country two years in a row and came up short. Hell, any other team would’ve lost that first and second round game. The refs saved them both times. EDIT: also, duke’s NIL budget is double ours, even IF we spent 22 million this past season.

If titles are the goal, then you agree with me, that Mark Pope should be fired, correct? Because if you aren’t satisfied with final 4 and elite 8. You must be ready to put “For Sale” signs in Mark’s yard.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Looking at duke’s season stats. Duke attempted 840 FTs and made 612. Their opponents attempted 507 FTs and made 361. I mean, wut?! How can you even begin to gauge success with bias like that?! Insane.

For those scoring at home, that’s more than THREE HUNDRED in free throw disparity. Hell, duke MADE 105 more FTs than their opponents even attempted!

 

[TFCat11]

The woke losers among us are taking over the fan base, and they want to make damn sure that UK is never successful again!

 

[UKJenning]

What stands out to me is that you need a coach with fire to motivate good players to play great as a team.

We have Mr. Rogers having our guys recite poetry, meditate, and focus on silent time.

 

[JwUKFan11]

Lmao I mean he just laid out the starting lineups of the most recent FIVE national champions and their “rankings”. Are E8s and F4s the real goal here or are titles?! Also, duke is a poor argument when judging their “success”.

Two points here: 1. They’re basically the only team still recruiting by the OAD model and 2. It’s very difficult to gauge duke’s “success”, considering the obvious bias they receive. I mean, they shot better than a 2-1 ratio on FTs through four games in the tournament this year and still came up short! They also had the best player in the country two years in a row and came up short. Hell, any other team would’ve lost that first and second round game. The refs saved them both times. EDIT: also, duke’s NIL budget is double ours, even IF we spent 22 million this past season.

You are ignoring the fact UF had a lottery pick in Haugh last year, and UConn had 2 in Castle and Clingan. We have 2 years of data, plus many more if we count Pope's time coaching BYU, and he has yet to put together a team capable of these claims you and a few of these other posters keep claiming. You just keep shouting about how others are doing it. That is nice and all but Pope is not them.

 

[TotheMoon88]

Lmao I mean he just laid out the starting lineups of the most recent FIVE national champions and their “rankings”. Are E8s and F4s the real goal here or are titles?! Also, duke is a poor argument when judging their “success”.

Two points here: 1. They’re basically the only team still recruiting by the OAD model and 2. It’s very difficult to gauge duke’s “success”, considering the obvious bias they receive. I mean, they shot better than a 2-1 ratio on FTs through four games in the tournament this year and still came up short! They also had the best player in the country two years in a row and came up short. Hell, any other team would’ve lost that first and second round game. The refs saved them both times. EDIT: also, duke’s NIL budget is double ours, even IF we spent 22 million this past season.

The goal sure isn’t sweet 16 and second round exits. Pretty sure our players portal rankings were better than some of those national championship teams so why didn’t pope win more?

 

[Seth_C]

I understand your point. I also think by this list it’s obvious that quality coaching comes into play at some point.

I think it's two things -- quality coaching and maybe more importantly, quality TEAM building. Calipari's strategy was take the highest ranked players he could get, even if it meant having 3 point guards and no one who could shoot. That's dumb. It's about recruiting good (top 50-100) players who actually fit together as a team.

We clearly did not have that last year.

 

[caliman]

The majority on this forum would be questioning Scheyer if he was our coach and we had the last three seasons he had..

People would wonder could he get over the hump, and rightfully so , with the choke jobs.

With Pope we’re hoping that he can get to the hump first, never mind getting over it.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

You are ignoring the fact UF had a lottery pick in Haugh last year, and UConn had 2 in Castle and Clingan. We have 2 years of data, plus many more if we count Pope's time coaching BYU, and he has yet to put together a team capable of these claims you and a few of these other posters keep claiming. You just keep shouting about how others are doing it. That is nice and all but Pope is not them.

Castle was the ONLY highly rated player of the 3, so no, nobody is ignoring ****. That’s kinda the point of this OP. Also, the first team Pope constructed was pretty damn good. Good enough to beat that Duke team AND that Florida team. That was when they were healthy, though. Yall like to ignore that fact, since we’re talking about ignoring ****.

 

[JwUKFan11]

Castle was the ONLY highly rated player of the 3, so no, nobody is ignoring ****. That’s kinda the point of this OP. Also, the first team Pope constructed was pretty damn good. Good enough to beat that Duke team AND that Florida team. That was when they were healthy, though. Yall like to ignore that fact, since we’re talking about ignoring ****.

You seem mad, which is odd. Pope had one "good" team, which still lost double digit games and peaked at a S16. He then followed that team up with a team that was higher rated and achieved less. I'm not understanding the argument. Do I hope he does good this year? Of course but nothing in his career tells us that will happen.

 

[UKGrad24]

This! Lmao @ “copium”! Even when the hard evidence is presented to folks, they STILL refuse to back off their stance. It’s pretty damn incredible, isn’t it?! Blah, blah, elite players! Blah, blah, five star recruits! Blah, blah, Mark Poop sucks! **** gets old.

Cowtown that is not evidence it wouldn’t be accepted for any major institution. It’s so incomplete and doesn’t explain what it thinks it does. Teams with better players have better odds, it’s a ridiculous post. It literally shows that you’ve got a few guys who are excellent evaluators and know how to search out their needs, both still recruited top players. Hurley wanted Flagg. They are not sitting there going “well top players are bad” get #144. And I believe Golden to be one of the best evaluators in the game. Mark needs better players he can’t coach nore evaluate his needs like Golden. He needs the “top 25 cheat sheet”.

It’s void of a lot of elements that make up genuine research. Take a look at Duke, no they haven’t won a title hell those are hard to do. Didn’t you say golden got lucky? If Golden got lucky then why would you look at this? It’s just luck. So look at Duke, they’re like 77-7 over the last 2 seasons with a final four and elite 8 and conference titles.

Look at Mark.

Incomplete and nonsense “Data” explodes. That guy didn’t post a real “research” that is not understanding research.

 

[Old Blue Fart]

I understand your point. I also think by this list it’s obvious that quality coaching comes into play at some point.

You are so correct in your post.
Looking at the OP list of players, notice how many UCONN players were ranked over 100?
If Pope took players ranked over 100, as he has, this board loses its s**t telling us how bad they are.
Funny how UCONN keeps taking these types of players and turns them into FF teams and all of a sudden the same ranked 100+ player is in high demand.
Coaching plays the biggest part.

 

[paulcalhoun_rivals397471]

True but their floor was elite 8's. Give me talent with a chance to win the title but a guarantee top 10-15 team.
The last 7-8 yrs we haven't had a single team that finished inside the freaking top 10.

UK has finished in the AP top ten 3 times in the last eight seasons and finished number 12 last season. We have fallen short of the success we all want to see but the exaggeration and lack of knowledge about the actual facts gets ridiculous.

Kentucky Wildcats Men's Basketball Index | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Kentucky Wildcats College Basketball History, Stats, Records, Polls, Leaders and More College Basketball Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[peterpiper09]

I don’t see Stokes on the list. Nor will you ever.

 

[caliman]

You are so correct in your post.
Looking at the OP list of players, notice how many UCONN players were ranked over 100?
If Pope took players ranked over 100, as he has, this board loses its s**t telling us how bad they are.
Funny how UCONN keeps taking these types of players and turns them into FF teams and all of a sudden the same ranked 100+ player is in high demand.
Coaching plays the biggest part.

UCONN can do that because they have a superior coach who knows what he’s doing, who develops the players that are ranked in the 100s, gets his teams to buy in to what he’s selling, and gets them to play hard.

UK has a coach who is good at none of those things.

 

[KyKevin]

UCONN can do that because they have a superior coach who knows what he’s doing, who develops the players that are ranked in the 100s, gets his teams to buy in to what he’s selling, and gets them to play hard.

UK has a coach who is good at none of those things.

And you never under estimate a champion, even if you can't stand the arrogant little fker

 

[theKybluedude]

Going back to 2021 (since 2020 had no tourney) we can see that having a team full of high transfers or recruits is just not what is needed to win the championship. I see a lot of people on this site saying we are only going after the worst mid majors, or we are screwed since we aren't getting any top high school recruits. That's just simply not needed in this day of basketball anymore.


View attachment 1240885

Incredible. Statistics and facts that debunk the Rafters experts. Shocking!

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Incredible. Statistics and facts that debunk the Rafters experts. Shocking!

“Yeah but WHUT about this year!? If this year is bad, that nullifies 41 years of data.”

 

[Mossip]

The roster is getting worse each season. Pope knows the assignment lol

 

[theKybluedude]

“Yeah but WHUT about this year!? If this year is bad, that nullifies 41 years of data.”

Bottom line no sidestepping Pope has a better record than Hurley in their first years

“ Wellllll Hurley has excuses.”

But Pope’s had some bad luck with injuries to key players over his first 2… right? Started with no players.

“ No not the same. Doesn’t fit our agenda. Can’t and won’t acknowledge any hurdles”