Repitition still doesn’t make it true. Now it’s the toxicity in the community. Someone was responsible for a historically bad offense and got fired. It’s kind of what happens when you take a leadership position. Statistics and facts on one side, on the other side is you……. Are you a Penn State fan? You have their deny, deflect, diminish and distract playbook down to a t.
McNutt out?
- Thread starter Demger
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No, there actually wasn't someone to pin the blame on for what primarily led to a historically bad offense, in the way fans try to portray. That's the whole point.
Turns out, what primarily contributed to that, was a confluence of bad luck factors, whether you want to accept it or not.
If you want to criticize BF's first 5 offenses, that's one thing. But that isn't how fans have portrayed it.
Fans are insisting to put blame on someone for something that there really is no one to blame.
And KF has told us that no one is to blame for what happened to the line. He was straightforward with us about the condition of the line all the way along, for those who bothered to listen. In '22, told us that the line was going to have to be rebuilt brick-by-brick. Told us not to expect a quick fix. In '23 KF told us the line would be able to take some growth steps, but that it still had a long way to go. Then after '23, and before Lester was hired, KF told us to expect a significant improvement in the '24 offense, as he expected the o-line to be in a good place.
Again, how do you think most of the same guys from a couple of the worst O-lines ever, develop into NFL players, highly rated college players, and a Joe Moore winning line? Do think perhaps they started playing before they were physically strong enough to get the job done? Why do think players lift weights? Why do think football teams put their biggest and strongest players on the line of scrimmage? This isn't complicated.
Those players were forced into early action because of massive attrition. I don't see where you can blame that much attrition, primarily made up of injuries, on any member of the coaching staff.
But you guys go ahead and continue to believe that one of the most consistently successful coaches of all-time, over a period of decades, and who happens to also be one of the best o-line coaches of all-time, all of the sudden just forgot what he was doing, and fielded a couple of the worst O-lines in history.
I'm laughing just a writing that. It's completely absurd to believe that even to be possible. Then the fact that there's a very straightforward paper trail that leads to the players' physical weight and lifting scores, and it's nearly inexplicable how these narratives still exist. Only sports fans.
Then of course, KF remembered what the hell he was doing, in '24, at the exact same time those players' physical weights and lifting scores increased to the point where they were able to have a chance to gel as a line. Just amazing coincidence
A HC not wanting to pin blame on his son. Gee, who had that on their bingo card. Ultimately there were numbers to measure the that offense and someone took responsibility with their job.
Since it was all just bad luck and bad circumstances it truly was just unfortunate that they held anyone accountable. Definitely had nothing to do with the person in charge of the unit.
I feel sorry for you that you even implied the nepotism thing. Just pathetic.
Again, BF had to be fired at that point because of public perception. Beth knew that much. Maybe she even had "football reasoning". But if so, she got it by listening to the wrong people.
Because again, believe it or not, the expert of what was actually happening on his own team was KF. And KF didn't see a reason to fire BF.
So essentially, you're saying someone on staff was responsible for massive attrition, made up mostly of injuries? Is that your position?
Your position just gets even weaker. Are you new to KF and Iowa football? Even when KF has let people go he doesn't blast them or publicly say negative things about them. You then expect him to put the blame on his son? Denial on your part? Check
That it wasn't football based and it was only public perception?
Deflection? Check
If you think public perception is going to drive the decision making.......
Delusional? Check
What I am saying is the following - the OC is in charge of the offense, the offense was historically bad, the OC got fired. These are the facts as they are presented and they are irrefutible
Keep trying to spin your magic. You continue to do a very poor impersonation of Joe's Place.
As soon as you present some facts.....well never mind, you seem incapable of doing other than making excuses.
Everything I have presented is fact as well, and at a much more detailed level.
I don't care what the reasoning was for firing BF. If "football reasoning" was used, again, it wasn't the correct reasoning, as the expert of the specifics of his team was KF, and KF hadn't found "football reasoning" to make the firing himself.
There's no way anyone could have made a more informed decision than him. And it also so happened that KF was in the midst of his winningest stretch at Iowa, with BF as OC. Other than not firing BF to alleviate toxicity in the community (which I believe would have been the correct decision), the only way KF could have possibly misjudged the situation is by way of nepotism. And I just don't believe that garbage for a second.
I don't know where I ever said anything about KF refraining from throwing BF under the buss. I merely cited the fact that KF has said no one was at fault for the attrition at o-line.
I hear your position. You've said the same thing over and over. So, I again ask a simple question. Who is to blame for the attrition at o-line?
Too many words on this.
My position - Based on actual facts
Your position - Based on speculation, opinions, deflection and denial
Quick take - KF not blaming BF isn't nepotism, it is who KF is. If he didn't rip Kackcynski on his way out he won't rip anyone.
Attrition on the O-line? responsibility of the OC. Big reason he got canned
Thought this thread was about mcnutt. Had enough about bf.
No. Again, my position is based on far many more facts than you have provided.
And BF getting canned doesn't prove anything. People are wrongfully fired and hired all the time.
I never said anything about KF assigning blame to someone on the way out. I said KF was the most informed person about what was happening on his football team. In his estimation, he hadn't seen a reason to fire BF. So, the only way the most expert football reasoning Beth could have received was wrong, would be have been by way of nepotism.
As for his comments that no one was to blame for the o-line attrition, he simply told it as it was.
So I ask you, how in the hell BF was to blame for the attrition at o-line? Yes, I get that it happened on his watch. That's not what I'm asking. It happened on KF's watch too. And his watch is a grandfather clock.
Again, if you're looking to assign blame to someone for the attrition, given the Doyle element to it, I would think one would look towards KF for that blame assignment.
What you say about responsibility falling on those in charge has its merit. But it's run its course and you don't seem to have anything else to go to. So was KF to blame for Covid happening on his watch? Have you ever had what simply amounts to bad luck or bad timing go against you in the workplace, or in life in general? Would you want people holding that bad luck against you, and judging you by it years later? After all, it happened on your watch.
Fact is, a different perspective has been presented than the one you are desperately clinging to. And it has been thoroughly supported with accurate information and sound reasoning.
So, explain to me specifically how BF is to blame for the attrition to the o-line
For a guy who said:
“I'm not defending BF as an OC.”
He sure spends a lot of time, energy, and words doing just that. (He’ll deny it of course, but his posts say otherwise. And yes, we can read.)
Don’t even try to pull that card. Do you need me to post quotes of all your pro-Brian statements?
Just take a look at your post #’s 20, 42, 50, 54, 79, 82, and 86 to start.
My God, just STOP it for crying out loud. Your words are there…in plain English…for all to see. You weren’t mischaracterized. You weren’t “misread”. Just ONCE admit it and stop being an argumentative a**.
No. Truly, read better.
You can pick out bits and pieces all you want. But the totality of my position and what I have broken down speaks for itself.
To not take others at face value, for what they tell you about their OWN thoughts, is quite pathetic. Especially when it has been explained in great detail. And especially when I've been saying the exact same thing for years. Not once have I changed my tune.
You honestly think I'm on this board to defend coaches?
They don't need defense against nameless and clueless fans.Clearly, I'm on this board to educate, and in this case, call out bad fans. You've been stalking my every post with laughing emojis for years. One would think you might have a clue
Post #’s 20, 42, 50, 54, 79, 82, and 86.No. Truly, read better.
You can pick out bits and pieces all you want. But the totality of my position and what I have broken down speaks for itself.
To not take others at face value, for what they tell you about their OWN thoughts, is quite pathetic. Especially when it has been explained in great detail. And especially when I've been saying the exact same thing for years. Not once have I changed my tune.
You honestly think I'm on this board to defend coaches?
Clearly, I'm on this board to educate, and in this case, call out bad fans. You've been stalking my every post with laughing emojis for years. One would think you might have a clue
I'm not sure who is more crazy. You trying to reason [negotiate] with a crazy one or the crazy one itself.
Perhaps re-read those posts.
You're literally providing examples of my commentary about fans.
That seems pretty straightforward in most of those posts. But if not, let me help you. BF has obviously been blamed by fans for anything and everything. So if I show something not to be BF's fault, that is to show how fans have been out of line with their uninformed narratives.
If it's still too confusing for you, again, I flat out told you that I am not defending BF. I flat out told you that I didn't care for BF as an OC. And I flat out told you that my intention is to call out bad fans for their inaccurate narratives, which caused the Iowa football team to have to operate on day-to-day basis amidst a thick cloud of toxicity
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Oh I know there is no reasoning with him. When I said he spends a lot of time defending Brian when he claims he doesn’t, he replied with his usual “read better” cop out. I provided 7 posts where he made a statement in defense of Brian. Instead of owning up to it like a man, he (as usual) instead chose to deflect and go off on a tangent.
And he HAS to have the last word. Always. Apparently he thinks he “wins” something.
Post #’s 20, 42, 50, 54, 79, 82, and 86.
My original post that you are responding to said nothing about “the fans”. I said you spend a lot of effort defending Brian when you claimed you didn’t. That’s all. And I listed 7 posts that contained at least one statement from you defending him. Instead of owning it like a man, you have deflected and gone off on a tangent about “the fans”. You wrote what you wrote. Everyone can read your words, and they are indisputable.
Keep arguing, and I will keep posting the post numbers. And you WILL keep arguing because you cannot just walk away. You absolutely ALWAYS have to have the last word. You do not have the intestinal fortitude to stop.
On second thought, I won’t keep posting them. I am done arguing with you in this thread. But I bet you will respond to this one. I’ll bet you don’t have the guts to walk away.
Prove me wrong.
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I get it. The temptation to poke the bear is often times irresistible.
Post #101.
Why would I walk away from an easy rebuttal?
I'm not going to let you mischaracterize me. Have some respect
Brian is gone, like Bob Commings and that crappy DL coach who went to Nebraska. It's been more than two years, the water has long gone from under the bridge.
Offensive results/coach fired >>>>>>>>>>>
opinions/excuses/rationalizations
To think that fans forced a firing made me chuckle.
What's interesting is Greg Davis retired in 2017. Any offensive player the roster by the '22 and '23 season you like to point to has Brian's fingerprints all over them. I agree the OL sucked but the WR's sucked, QB's sucked, and the RB's weren't overly impressive.
The crappy offense and crappy offensive recruiting has doesn't have "very little to do with Brian". It has EVERYTHING to do with Brian.
Offensive results completely mischaracterized by fans and not all a result of coaching.
Extensive accurate information and sound reasoning to support that.
Why would I make an excuse for someone I didn't care for?
I never said fans forced the firing
You keep reaching on the ‘not all a result of coaching’
Hopefully you stretched before that reach.
If you are only looking for absolutes in this situation I will give you the two absolutes
Historically bad offensive result.
Coach in charge of historically bad offensive results got fired.
The rest is spin, rationalization, blame displacement, defend, deny, diminish. Straight out of the PSU playbook. Keep trying. The facts are the facts.
Most of this has already been covered.
There may have been parts of the offense, other than the o-line, that weren't great all along. But they never kept Iowa from having a functioning offense on a winning team.
The offense stopped functioning when the o-line broke. And I've broken down how BF had very little to do with the breaking of the line.
Perhaps WR and other issues compounded the problem once the line was broken. Certainly an immobile QB was a pairing from hell. But the engine (o-line) was broken regardless. No matter how ugly the car was, the real problem was that it didn't run.
(And really, the worst offense in the country wasn't a problem either, at least not near to the extent fans made it out to be, as Iowa averaged 9 wins over those two seasons.) But that's somewhat a different story.
The point is how BF is mischaracterized. Given that what broke a previously functioning offense had little to do with him, BF as an OC (at least at Iowa), would be much more accurately characterized by his first 5 seasons.
But fans actually use '22 and '23 as BF's defining seasons, as if they were a culmination of years worth of a bad OC. Complete mischaracterization.
And of course, as soon as the o-line was fixed, that culmination no longer existed. All of the sudden those BF recruits were again able to field a functioning offense.
That's because there wasn't a talent deficiency on the team, other than at o-line. And that was merely undeveloped talent.
And again, if the recruiting narrative were to have any truth, its truth, and the narrative, would fall on KF for allowing several weak recruiting classes.
Again, all one has to do is watch a few plays of the '22 o-line. When it's blatantly obvious that the line was getting less forward push than any line I've ever seen at Iowa, it blows my mind why people would even be curious about what was happening at other positions
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Dude- I've already rebutted all of this. I have delegitimized your position over and over and you keep repeating the same thing.
I've asked you to explain the specifics of how massive attrition to the o-line was BF's fault. And you have declined.
Until you have something new, I'm done repeating myself to you
It’s called not adjusting. You have a weak area, you change things to counteract the weakness. BF wasn’t the first OC to have a poor OL or lose players at a position. Been worse OL in Big 10 last 20 years but no one put out a worse offensive futility than his unit. Look at KOK in 04’ when rb went down or Lester even said last year with gronowski deviated parts of the offense from what he usually runs to fit a mobile QB.
I have asked friends who coach and one at Iowa clinic last week this very question (whose opinions far outweigh and carry more credibility than yours). Worst part of BF during those years he ran the same offense as he would have if he had the OL this year. He made little to no adjustments during his time at Iowa. He was a dreadful qb coach and Hunter concepts for wr were awful with a poor OL but he didn’t ADJUST to getting ball of qb hands any quicke. As they said his biggest flaw of him or any failed coordinator is the refusal to adjust to personal. And it’s not like he inherited players from other coaches. That 100% is on him.
again if it wasn’t his fault why is it 3 years later Big 10 OC with 7 years experience can’t get a job besides OL coach at Fresno St?
I went back and reread your lengthy posts and after serious reflection and really looking at what you have posted that you are so correct and I have been wrong throughout this thread. I appreciate your patience with me……..
Thank the stars that today is now April 2nd. The post above made me chuckle. This morning I started to type a lengthy Joes Place/Eyes of the Hawk/Iowa Law worthy response to the OL attrition issue was just about to summarize it and my phone had an issue. Probably good because it would have garnered the TLDR response. So a short synopsis
BF created a culture that people didn't want to play in. He took 20 years of brand good will and people just didn't want to play there. It manifested itself in the OL. People quit, didn't want to continue the grind and then people didn't want to come to Iowa.
The proof as others have pointed out. The coaching fraternity is small, people know each other. If BF had been just a 'victim of circumstances' as you contend. Things out of his control then he would have been hired around the same level as he left. He wasn't and still hasn't, he had already cashed his relationship card in with the Patriots.
He wasn't a good OC, the attrition happened under his watch and the culture that he created, the results were historically bad. He was fired. He has not resurfaced at a similar level.
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Sounds like not a teacher anymore but no word on his position as HC for football.So........... is McNutt out or not?
McNutt out as iJAG employee for KCSD
Marvin McNutt was teaching at the Keokuk High School through the Iowa Jobs for American Graduates program, also known as iJAG.
www.mississippivalleypublishing.com
If what "wasn't BF's fault"?
I'm talking about mischaracterization. How people characterized BF became a whole other animal in '22, '23, and since. What took Iowa's offense from functional for 5 seasons under BF, to broken for two seasons under BF, to functional for two seasons under TL, was the breaking and fixing of its engine, the offensive line.
It wasn't a culmination thing. Had the o-line not reached its state in '22, an offense similar to the previous years would have been fielded. And again, even if it were a culmination thing, that would have been something most accurately attributed to KF, not BF.
The "culmination" narrative just isn't a road that's going to lead to any justification of the level of fan negativity that existed towards BF or KF.
1. '22 wasn't a culmination of anything.
2. If it were, the narrative would most accurately be attached to KF.
3. And if attached to KF, the level of negativity becomes instantly delegitimized as, hang with me here folks, it's directed at a hall of fame coach in the midst of his winningest stretch ever.
Would there not have been a confluence of bad luck factors that led to the '22 o-line, the BF narratives would have never reached their level of negativity, volume, and intensity. There’s no doubting that.
As for adjustments:
1. Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs wouldn't have done a darn thing with the offensive line of '22 and '23. Neither KOK's or TL's adjustment would have gotten mileage with that line either.
People don't seem to understand how bad the line was and what that means for an offense. It was literally the worst O-line I've ever seen at Iowa. You say you've seen worse elsewhere. And I've already responded to that in this thread. I can't think of any worse myself. And don't know how any line could be worse than a group of guys that had never played, never played together, and wasn't made up of one guy that was strong enough to move the guy in-front of him. And again, the point is how the raw line affected Iowa, not other teams. O-line is crucial for every offense. But offense at Iowa had been built around o-line.
2. Given that...adust to what? The thin margin for error that exists at Iowa had already been built around the o-line. You're not just going to move on to the WR room. You need your engine to function.
3. Given that, the Iowa offense had no base to be able to adjust from. Adjusting to better fuel, engine oil, tires, and paint, wasn't going to make the car run. Any attempt at significant adjustment not only wouldn't have been a quick fix, but would have amounted to dead-end smoke and mirrors. Simply, when an offensive line is that bad, not much is going to work. The offense is going to be bad. Adjustments won't do much, nor can a car with no engine be reinvented. The engine had to be rebuilt.
4. Luckily, KF is one of the best builders in football's history. The staff DID ADJUST. They pared things down to really be able to rebuild brick-by-brick. Same thing when Hill became the QB in '23. Just how they adjust in the NFL when a backup QB comes in. The best talent, best skill, best strategists and playcallers in the world adjust to backup QB's by paring things down. Before Iowa could even win a game with KF in '99, it became obvious to me that he was building something special, as I realized he was basically running the same 3 plays over and over again.
How Iowa adjusted in '22 is a huge part of the mischaracterization from fans. People want to cite BF's predictability without realizing the staff essentially CHOSE to be more predictable in '22 and '23.
It was truly a brick-by-brick approach. Not seeking out quick fixes was an investing in the future, as it also allowed other position groups to continue to develop in form true to what Iowa wanted to continue to be.
5. Going to something like a quick passing attack would have compromised some ability to develop to that form. Most likely, Iowa would have had to spread the field with a bunch of receivers that weren't a strength of the roster. Right away, that would have been a bad marriage for the Iowa's defense, as they heavily practice 1's vs 1's, and they would have had to spend their time defending something other than what they wanted to be practicing. It would have changed blocking schemes rather than allowing the o-line to develop in the way they needed to. Etc, etc. Do you think Iowa would have put up the rushing numbers they did in '24 if they'd spent '23 in a quick passing attack? Again, staying true to form allowed the entire team to develop true to form, and be able to hit the ground running once the o-line was fixed.
I would also almost guarantee Iowa would have won less games in '22 and '23 had they adjusted to a quick passing attack. With as bad as the offense was and as great as the defense and punter were, there was no choice but to play into the defense and special teams with every decision. A quick passing attack would have been about the worst thing to do. Iowa absolutely could not afford to be stopping the clock with incompletions. They absolutely had to mix in a good amount of runs on 3rd and long to help flip the field for the D. There are reasons KF has been quoted saying, throwing the ball (a lot) makes it harder on your defense, harder to win.
6. The concept of adjusting strategies to fit personnel is least prevalent in college athletics. That's because coaches like KF, that have a distinct style of play, are able to recruit players that fit that style of play. The present season is always the priority. But the future of the program is always important as well. At the time, I think it would have been at least pretty reasonable to recognize the risk to the future of the program, that significant adjustments carried. And I'm completely comfortable saying that any significant adjustment, made as a quick-fix in '22 and '23, would have compromised the level of success experienced in '24 and '25. It would have compromised the same brick-by-brick approach that built a 2+ decade winning program.
The staff was absolutely brilliant in their handling of the situation. They were able to win a division title, and average 9 wins in two seasons that included a rebuild, from which benefits in today's program can be felt.
That's what actually happened folks. Now, compare it to how it's portrayed in the narratives. You see how it's possible, for a laughable narrative about the UNLV game, to be attached to Tom Davis, 39 years later?
I mean, the highest the negativity in the community ever has been, was in the last two years of KF's winningest stretch at Iowa. This isn't hard, folks.
I guess it's too bad for sensitivity to nepotism, and a need for offensive production (also known as a pacifier) to be entertained