Revenue Models & Tax Theory

baltimorened

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Chicago just recorded its lowest annual murder total in decades. Chicago is 22nd in murder rate in the country.

Chicago’s school problems are due to historic redlining, neoliberal disinvestment, racism from the Daley machine pre-80s, and privatization.

Illiteracy is a national problem with a number of complex issues that can’t solely be blamed on a single political party
personally, I don't blame education problems on any single party. I blame the system. Again, I'm older than most on here, but in my day, if you didn't meet grade standards you repeated the grade. There was also this ethic that you needed an education - at least high school or trade school (we had trade based high schools) in order to get a job and have a successful life. Not so anymore. Teachers pass kids who can read or do basic math (even colleges have remedial classes for freshman) and, no job, no problem get welfare, SNAP, medicaid, free phones, heat subsidies, rent subsidies etc.

We'v lost the plot
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
113
personally, I don't blame education problems on any single party. I blame the system. Again, I'm older than most on here, but in my day, if you didn't meet grade standards you repeated the grade. There was also this ethic that you needed an education - at least high school or trade school (we had trade based high schools) in order to get a job and have a successful life. Not so anymore. Teachers pass kids who can read or do basic math (even colleges have remedial classes for freshman) and, no job, no problem get welfare, SNAP, medicaid, free phones, heat subsidies, rent subsidies etc.

We'v lost the plot
Yes, as a former teacher, the problem is absolutely the system of the last 20-25 years
 

Moogy

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Jul 28, 2017
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Why did this become a problem - “without the social and familial support networks” - I believe it is from giving those people free money. The government created this. That’s exactly what kidmike is saying I think. They don’t rely on themselves or each other, they depend solely on the government. That’s a huge problem. Government intervenes and the recipients quit trying.

So, at some point, no one had any need, but the government insisted on giving them handouts, and they created the problem? That's your stance?
 

Moogy

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There’s no excuse on planet earth to have 85% of HS graduates illiterate. None. Redline, racism, none of it. That was from 2024 btw. You telling it’s because of racism? Good grief man. No scenario where that should be acceptable.

What percentage of illiterate HS graduates IS acceptable/excusable? How do we achieve whatever your target percentage is?
 

MTTiger19

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Sep 10, 2008
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Where are you getting the 85% illiterate number? I do think functional illiteracy (adults reading at or below a 6th grade level) is a major problem in this country and is something that is happening everywhere
I was wrong. It’s 78%. In spring 2024, only 22.4% of 11th graders were proficient in reading/ELA (meaning about 77.6% were not proficient at grade level). This remained below pre-pandemic (2019) levels.
Directly from Chicago Public Schools CPS.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
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I was wrong. It’s 78%. In spring 2024, only 22.4% of 11th graders were proficient in reading/ELA (meaning about 77.6% were not proficient at grade level). This remained below pre-pandemic (2019) levels.
Directly from Chicago Public Schools CPS.
Don’t want to say the numbers are good by any means but Illinois had until 2025 higher standards than the national ones. National numbers aren’t great either so it certainly isn’t unique to Chicago or CPS
 
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MTTiger19

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Don’t want to say the numbers are good by any means but Illinois had until 2025 higher standards than the national ones. National numbers aren’t great either so it certainly isn’t unique to Chicago or CPS
I’m asking how racism impacts that? You said that racism was one of the reasons they’re doing so poorly. How so? I’d be willing to bet that the teachers and administrators aren’t racist.
 

Dungeon09

Heisman
Dec 1, 2021
6,940
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Why did this become a problem - “without the social and familial support networks” - I believe it is from giving those people free money. The government created this. That’s exactly what kidmike is saying I think. They don’t rely on themselves or each other, they depend solely on the government. That’s a huge problem. Government intervenes and the recipients quit trying.
The social and familial support networks don’t exist in the permanent underclass because those things require resources that those people don’t have. Middle and upper middle class folks who fall on hard times have access to resource pools that can help them out, but poor folks don’t. The commonplace upward mobility that we know as “The American Dream” is largely a mid-20th century phenomenon that arose out of New Deal economics and Goldilocks industrial conditions where the entirety of the industrialized world was totally devastated in the aftermath of WW2. Prior to that, desperately poor people overwhelmingly just started desperately poor across generations.
 

MTTiger19

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The social and familial support networks don’t exist in the permanent underclass because those things require resources that those people don’t have. Middle and upper middle class folks who fall on hard times have access to resource pools that can help them out, but poor folks don’t. The commonplace upward mobility that we know as “The American Dream” is largely a mid-20th century phenomenon that arose out of New Deal economics and Goldilocks industrial conditions where the entirety of the industrialized world was totally devastated in the aftermath of WW2. Prior to that, desperately poor people overwhelmingly just started desperately poor across generations.
What specific resources are you referring to? That’s vague.
 

MTTiger19

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Yeah the modern education systems issues are a direct line to No Child Left Behind (passed by the Bush admin) and the later Every Student Succeeds act which was only partially implemented with its accountability requirements being eliminated by the first Trump admin.
So you didn’t have Obama and Biden over 12 of that last 16 years to do something about it? Interesting.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
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So you didn’t have Obama and Biden over 12 of that last 16 years to do something about it? Interesting.
Reforming is easier said than done especially when states control so much of it. There were also vested interest groups created by NCLB who were very involved in keeping things that way.
 
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MTTiger19

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Reforming is easier said than done especially when states control so much of it. There were also vested interest groups created by NCLB who were very involved in keeping things that way.
There’s always an excuse. That’s consistent across the board over there.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
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There’s always an excuse. That’s consistent across the board over there.
How is it an excuse? That’s how politics work. Powerful interest groups have a say in what legislation is passed and how it works. Money and influence talk
 
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MTTiger19

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How is it an excuse? That’s how politics work. Powerful interest groups have a say in what legislation is passed and how it works. Money and influence talk
How long did it take to start deporting illegals? How’d that work? You’re telling me there’s a group that’s vested in the destruction of the American education system basically. And no one can do anything about it bc Bush. You gotta be kidding me.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
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What specific resources are you referring to? That’s vague.
Financial and familial resources. If you are middle and upper middle class you are more likely to own your home rather than rent, have better credit, have access to more lines of credit, have more saved up, have actual retirement accounts, have more assets you can liquidate, have a job with pto and medical leave, have a salary rather than hourly pay, have flexibility with your work and still get paid, only have one parent working etc. Not only do you have that, members of your family also have that.

Do give you an example: my wife and I are from middle to upper middle class families. All 4 parents worked but worked well paying jobs. Our parents paid for us to go to Clemson. We never had to worry about loans. We never had to work in college. When we moved our parents helped us with the move physically and financially. When we bought a place her parents gave us some money to cover the savings we had to liquidate. They gave us money to help us with renovations when we bought our second place. When a grandparent died we inherited a bunch of stocks that we can liquidate if need be. We both have salaried jobs with a lot of flexibility, good pto, and very good healthcare.

If we ever had a significant crisis I wouldn’t be worried about running out of money
 
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GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
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How long did it take to start deporting illegals? How’d that work? You’re telling me there’s a group that’s vested in the destruction of the American education system basically. And no one can do anything about it bc Bush. You gotta be kidding me.
What does deporting immigrants have to do with this?

That’s not what I’m saying. NCLB set the stage for the development and growing influence of those groups. They also don’t think they’re destroying the education system and people didn’t think they were. The rise of cellphones and social media has also had a deleterious impact but that only has been seen in the last 5-10 years tops.

Tons of companies, like the entire standardized testing industry, have developed because of NCLB and have an interest in keeping things like this. EdTech companies benefit heavily from the way things are. They wine and dine administrators in school districts. School admin, especially at the state and district level, is a huge part of the problem. They’re the people who pushed getting rid of phonics. There was some shoddy research as well
 

Dungeon09

Heisman
Dec 1, 2021
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What specific resources are you referring to? That’s vague.
I’m not sure why this needs specifying. People need food, shelter, medicine, support for working parents, etc. All of those things require money or assets in surpluses that lower class communities don’t have. Community support is a nice thought and mutual aid is important and something that I contribute to regularly now in my own community but acting like it’s this panacea in an environment where those who need it most are concentrated geographically and demographically is ignorant of reality at best and self servingly dishonest at worst. Every time I hear this argument I ask the person making it how much they donated to their local food bank, rent assistance fund, or legal aid fund the previous year. Overwhelmingly, the answer is less than a family meal out at table service.
 

Dungeon09

Heisman
Dec 1, 2021
6,940
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What does deporting immigrants have to do with this?

That’s not what I’m saying. NCLB set the stage for the development and growing influence of those groups. They also don’t think they’re destroying the education system and people didn’t think they were. The rise of cellphones and social media has also had a deleterious impact but that only has been seen in the last 5-10 years tops.

Tons of companies, like the entire standardized testing industry, have developed because of NCLB and have an interest in keeping things like this. EdTech companies benefit heavily from the way things are. They wine and dine administrators in school districts. School admin, especially at the state and district level, is a huge part of the problem. They’re the people who pushed getting rid of phonics. There was some shoddy research as well
And don’t miss the script here that the absolute worst state school systems in this country are still overwhelming controlled by Republican legislatures and appointees who have a stated mission of dismantling the entire concept of public education.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
113
And don’t miss the script here that the absolute worst state school systems in this country are still overwhelming controlled by Republican legislatures and appointees who have a stated mission of dismantling the entire concept of public education.
Oklahoma had a top half education system about 15 years ago and ever since the state GOP got a supermajority just after that it’s now one of the absolutely worst in the country
 

MTTiger19

All-American
Sep 10, 2008
5,744
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Financial and familial resources. If you are middle and upper middle class you are more likely to own your home rather than rent, have better credit, have access to more lines of credit, have more saved up, have actual retirement accounts, have more assets you can liquidate, have a job with pto and medical leave, have a salary rather than hourly pay, have flexibility with your work and still get paid, only have one parent working etc. Not only do you have that, members of your family also have that.

Do give you an example: my wife and I are from middle to upper middle class families. All 4 parents worked but worked well paying jobs. Our parents paid for us to go to Clemson. We never had to worry about loans. We never had to work in college. When we moved our parents helped us with the move physically and financially. When we bought a place her parents gave us some money to cover the savings we had to liquidate. They gave us money to help us with renovations when we bought our second place. When a grandparent died we inherited a bunch of stocks that we can liquidate if need be. We both have salaried jobs with a lot of flexibility, good pto, and very good healthcare.

If we ever had a significant crisis I wouldn’t be worried about running out of money
That’s not even close to my experience. That sounds nice. You shouldn’t impose your experience on others. My parents are divorced. I worked my *** off to earn a scholarship. I’ve worked my *** off to get where I am now. No one gave me a damn thing. It can be done. I’m not some super hero, I just wanted more for myself. And you can do that here. You might’ve had a silver spoon in your mouth but many of us didn’t. And we resent you being so frivolous to give away what we’ve worked very hard for.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
113
That’s not even close to my experience. That sounds nice. You shouldn’t impose your experience on others. My parents are divorced. I worked my *** off to earn a scholarship. I’ve worked my *** off to get where I am now. No one gave me a damn thing. It can be done. I’m not some super hero, I just wanted more for myself. And you can do that here. You might’ve had a silver spoon in your mouth but many of us didn’t. And we resent you being so frivolous to give away what we’ve worked very hard for.
What on earth are you talking about? Did you see what I was responding to? I was saying what those resources were. How am I giving things away lol
 
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baltimorened

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
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The social and familial support networks don’t exist in the permanent underclass because those things require resources that those people don’t have. Middle and upper middle class folks who fall on hard times have access to resource pools that can help them out, but poor folks don’t. The commonplace upward mobility that we know as “The American Dream” is largely a mid-20th century phenomenon that arose out of New Deal economics and Goldilocks industrial conditions where the entirety of the industrialized world was totally devastated in the aftermath of WW2. Prior to that, desperately poor people overwhelmingly just started desperately poor across generations.
IMO, that's a relative cop out...charter schools in New York take these same kids, teach them and get them into Ivy league universities. If they can do it similar schools can do it in Chicago
 
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GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
13,496
35,209
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IMO, that's a relative cop out...charter schools in New York take these same kids, teach them and get them into Ivy league universities. If they can do it similar schools can do it in Chicago
There are tons of charter schools in Chicago. There are some decent ones but a lot of them suck too. Charter schools don’t have the legal obligation to take every student and often don’t take or get rid of students with behavioral issues or disabilities (physical and learning)
 

Dungeon09

Heisman
Dec 1, 2021
6,940
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IMO, that's a relative cop out...charter schools in New York take these same kids, teach them and get them into Ivy league universities. If they can do it similar schools can do it in Chicago
Charter schools function by skimming the top 10-15% of public school students off the top because they can be selective in admissions

Imagine you’re coaching pony league baseball. All of the other teams get players distributed to them randomly. You get to hold a tryout before this happens and select your roster. You’d be an absolute dunce to not outperform the other teams in that scenario, yeah? Thats exactly what’s happened in Aiken County, btw. The charter school hasn’t been performing as well as the public schools despite selective admissions.
 

baltimorened

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There are tons of charter schools in Chicago. There are some decent ones but a lot of them suck too. Charter schools don’t have the legal obligation to take every student and often don’t take or get rid of students with behavioral issues or disabilities (physical and learning)
what's wrong with that. If a kid doesn't want to do the work, or can't do the work, they shouldn't take up space from someone who can or will.
 
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baltimorened

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Charter schools function by skimming the top 10-15% of public school students off the top because they can be selective in admissions

Imagine you’re coaching pony league baseball. All of the other teams get players distributed to them randomly. You get to hold a tryout before this happens and select your roster. You’d be an absolute dunce to not outperform the other teams in that scenario, yeah? Thats exactly what’s happened in Aiken County, btw. The charter school hasn’t been performing as well as the public schools despite selective admissions.
well from what I've seen a lot of NY charter schools are populated via lottery system.
 
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baltimorened

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Do you believe everyone has a right to an education?
sure, so why are there so many kids who can't read or write to their grade level? Nobody is insinuating that every kid doesn't have the right to an education. That's simply a deflection. But shouldn't we expect that kids at least make an attempt to learn during their free education, before we put them on entitlement roles?

All of this defense of education is humorous. We all believe that our education system is failing our students. Our costs for the education per student is going higher and higher and education performance is at best flat and in many cases declining. And, you know what, it's been this way for years, and isn't getting any better no matter how much money we throw at it
 
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MTTiger19

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sure, so why are there so many kids who can't read or write to their grade level? Nobody is insinuating that every kid doesn't have the right to an education. That's simply a deflection. But shouldn't we expect that kids at least make an attempt to learn during their free education, before we put them on entitlement roles?

All of this defense of education is humorous. We all believe that our education system is failing our students. Our costs for the education per student is going higher and higher and education performance is at best flat and in many cases declining. And, you know what, it's been this way for years, and isn't getting any better no matter how much money we throw at it
I think they’re saying that people that are born poor have no “social or family resources” and therefore cannot try and learn to read. People born poor should have zero expectations and shouldn’t try at all, just take the handout. That’s the gist I get.
 

MTTiger19

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Charter schools function by skimming the top 10-15% of public school students off the top because they can be selective in admissions

Imagine you’re coaching pony league baseball. All of the other teams get players distributed to them randomly. You get to hold a tryout before this happens and select your roster. You’d be an absolute dunce to not outperform the other teams in that scenario, yeah? Thats exactly what’s happened in Aiken County, btw. The charter school hasn’t been performing as well as the public schools despite selective admissions.
So because someone else takes the good players that means you don’t even have to try?? Got it. lol. Thankfully I don’t think that way.
No ones looking for 1600 SAT scores but I don’t think being able to read is asking too much.