Revenue Models & Tax Theory
- Thread starter FLaw47
- Start date
It’s crazy to me that their answer to this is to tax the already overtaxed working people more. Nothing about that makes sense. It’s like telling a crack head they don’t need to stop smoking crack, they need to figure out a way to get more money to buy more crack. That’s reality for the left apparently.
I’m very well aware of that stuff. I’m also not narrow minded enough to think this is just a problem that started in the last 10 years vs something that’s been in the making for decades. I also don’t think that’s the sole issue for the problems we’re dealing with today.
As a percentage of our entitlement spending, how much of it do you think is going to fraud?
Edit: as I worried, my poor thread is turning into another spending thread.
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I feel like you’re trying to come up with ingredients for ice cream and telling everyone they can’t use milk and sugar. It’s a wild exercise.
Half the people on it don’t need to be. People have made getting entitlements their career. They don’t even try anymore. Lazy people would prefer to sit on their *** for 80$ vs work to get 100$. Again, this is basics.
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Half the people? Based on what information have you made this determination?
We have too many entitlements. Too much social media and reality television has people hating their lives. Get rid of both and I think we see positive change. Keep going this way and we turn into a dystopian society. I just watched the new running man.
How many people do you know that are:
Accountable
Go to work every day
Not addicted to drugs or alcohol
That need tax payer subsidies. I don’t know a single one. I don’t know a single person that meets those three simple, basic criteria that are in abject poverty? Hell I know several people that only can check 2 of those 3 and they’re doing fine. How many people have you seen in line at your grocery stores with carts full of everything under the sun and they’re 25 and overweight paying with EBT. A lot! That’s all you need to understand to know that it’s an absolute disaster, it wasn’t meant to replace a job yet it has. It’s absolutely destroyed motivation, self reliance and accountability - specifically in black communities but frankly everywhere. There are very few people that REALLY NEED a full on handout. There is no way in hell that we should be shelling out 10 Billion Dollars A Day on subsidies. That is insane.
Other than children, the elderly and those with significant mental or physical handicaps, I struggle to see why anyone else needs any entitlement from the government.
That’s who it was meant for. It wasn’t meant to be used the way it’s being used. Frankly it’s being abused not used.
Again, I'm just looking for him to support his claim. I could say 1%, or 90% ... or I could go full Trump and break the laws of mathematics and say, for instance we could cut entitlements by 600%, just like he did with prescription drug prices ... but I wouldn't have any basis for any of those numbers ... so he threw a number out and I just wanted him to support his assertion.
The reason why this is important is cons have a long and storied history of freaking out about things and making mountains out of mole hills in order to get their way. Hell, I remember in the 80s, growing up, when I was a conservative-in-training, we heard all about welfare fraud, and how all these welfare queens were gaming the system and it was going to be the death of America ... then it turned out, while there was, of course, fraud (there is in just about ANYTHING on a large enough scale, private or public), it was WAY overstated by the conservative drama queens. So, it turned out that, rather than eliminate welfare, so as to kill off the rampant fraud, all we needed to do was tighten up the system, to try our best to reduce the small bit of fraud that did exist. Since then, however, that trend has continued, to where we are now subjected to seemingly daily fudging of reality in order to push MAGAt agendas. Immigration numbers, crime numbers, voter fraud numbers, men playing women's sports, porn in schools ... and so on and so on ... all issues or potential issues, but all made absolutely stupidly unbelievable by overdramatic MAGAts.
And, so ... when someone says 50% of those getting entitlements don't need them ... well, prove it.
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I really have no idea...and what's worse, I doubt if anyone in the government does either
I'm not sure how prudent it is to spend so much time focusing on fraud if you don't even have a guess for how big of a deal it is.
I did some cursory research and my read is that fraud is about 10% of the deficit. Which, to be fair, is way more than I would have guessed. And, while it's definitely worth tackling, it's still a distinct minority.
(I excluded the pandemic fraud as that's not an ongoing issue but it still was handled recklessly).
Whats your theory of the case for someone working a full time minimum wage job? Get a better job?
Minimum wage jobs aren’t intended for self-sufficient adults. These are teens bagging groceries or tearing movie tickets. McDonald’s pays 2X+ minimum wage in SC. So does Walmart and Starbucks. Landscape crews around here are paying $20+ per hour.
If all you can get is a minimum wage job as a full grown adult, I have to assume you fall into the mentally or physically disabled category. Or are exceptionally lazy or addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. And those issues aren’t my problem.
I’m being serious here. Walk me through the profile of a 30 year old adult who cannot get a job at McDonald’s or Walmart or Starbucks or a landscaping crew or a construction crew or wait tables or anywhere else that pays materially better than minimum wage. And doesn’t have a significant mental or physical disability.
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you won't like this answer, but why would anyone work a minimum wage job? The minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Right now, even most McDonalds are paying $18-20.
Here's another thought, if you're not satisfied with a low wage job, improve yourself so that you can earn more. There are continuing education classes through local schools, tons of self help on line.
Granted there are people who will never be able to work other than low paying jobs...those people we need to help. But I have a hard time believing that 1/3 of the workforce is in this category. Remember tough love...we need some of that
Exactly what I said yesterday. They seriously believe everyone should be making 200k a year just because. These people do not believe in honest work, self reliance, accountability. It’s that simple. They want to GIVE your money to LAZY people. 10% fraud is laughable.
How many people do you know that are:
Accountable
Go to work every day
Not addicted to drugs or alcohol
That need tax payer subsidies. I don’t know a single one. I don’t know a single person that meets those three simple, basic criteria that are in abject poverty?
42 million ADULTS, not children, are on SNAP. You telling me there’s not jobs at Costco wrangling carts or at a lawn service cutting grass? Do we really believe that there’s 42 million people that can’t feed themselves? 27 million of those are between 18-50. Furthermore they constantly talk about the education divide. Well guess what - liberal enclaves like Chicago are “graduating” students from HS that cannot read. They’re illiterate, in 2026, with all the access and tools, Chicago is sending 85% of their students into the work force that cannot read or write, how the F is that my problem. Maybe hold your teachers, leaders AND most of all students accountable for their own decisions and actions. Its ridiculous that we all collectively have to subsidize laziness.
31% of the population receives one of these - SNAP, Medicaid, SSI. For comparison on 1999, it was 13%. It’s tripled. If 1/3 of the people here cannot work, we are cooked. Those of you that think a 300% increase in subsidies in 20 years is normal are also the ones constantly crying that there’s no fraud.
The first job I had I was working 65-70 hours a week for $30,000 a year. I never missed a day, worked weekends, missed tons of things, worked holidays, it was awful. I was working in a plant that cleaned chicken coats from statesville. They’d ship in 1000’s of bloody coats from their kill houses, we cleaned them and sent them back out. I did that for two years every single day. No one came to rescue me, no one gave me any free stuff, my bosses didn’t care about me, etc…. But I worked through it and am very successful now. Boo hoo if someone has to actually apply themselves to become successful. Get over it. That’s what life is about, struggling, overcoming obstacles, learning to rely on yourself not others, independence, growth, perseverance!! Liberals rob people of this, their policies rob people of their motivation and will.
1999 - 13% of Americans were on subsidies.
2022 - 32% of Americans were on subsidies.
it tripled in 20 years. And you think 10% of that being fraud is an exaggeration. You think a program giving out free money that’s had a 300% increase in enrollment is on the up and up? No wonder we are in the mess we are in. There’s no group on planet earth with their head further in the sand than liberals.
I don’t know anyone either, though I admit I live in a bubble. But I genuinely can’t figure out the profile of a 30 year old adult with no disability, no addiction and a decent work ethic who can’t get a job paying more than minimum wage.
Because it doesn’t exist. If you meet those three criteria and can’t take care of yourself it’s a choice at that point. There are 42 million people that fall in that age range on SNAP alone. No different than the illiteracy info I posted about Chicago. You’re telling me that 85 out of every 100 kids in Chicago public schools are so remedial they can’t learn to read? No, that’s bull crap. Maybe 5-10 out of 100 and that’s still high imo. They choose not to learn - they’re lazy and entitled and unaccountable. That’s all that is.
We could fix all this by changing the voting laws. My proposal is screw voter ID, the new voter ID is your W2. If you don’t pay taxes, you don’t vote. If you’re on welfare, you don’t vote. Why should people that have no skin in the game have equal say to those that do? Secondly tie extended entitlements, say longer than 6 months, to mandatory military service of the same duration. You want welfare for 5 years, you serve 5 years in the military to pay it off. Or if you’re unable to serve you pay the money back plus interest. How many dead beats would leave the country OR how many would realize their true potential? That 42 million would drop 75% immediately. Debt would be paid off in a few years. But the libs prefer taxing you more.
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looking through Google, it's estimated that anywhere from 3-9% of the federal budget is lost to fraud....that's a lot of money
According to google Nazis were black men and Asian women lol. But seriously who’s reporting the fraud, the government? Do we believe them when they say that? I’m not aware of any true nonpartisan watchdog groups that have real data on this. But my suspicion is it’s much much higher than 3-9%. However to your point 3-9% of the federal budget is a humongous number.
My 5 year old reads to me now. It’s fascinating that we have an illiteracy issue in those schools. I suspect the same traits that allow you to depend on the government allow you to raise a kid who can’t read.
Fraud amount: Likely tens of billions annually across means-tested subsidies (e.g., $10B+ SNAP overpayments/trafficking, $10–30B Medicaid provider/recipient fraud estimates from investigations), but far less than total improper payments (~$50–100B+ combined for SNAP/Medicaid alone in recent years).
Exactly. That’s my point. If you have a child that’s been in school for 12 years, that’s 18 years old and they can’t read that’s a YOU problem. That’s not my problem or my fault or anyone else's frankly. Reparations and welfare and handouts do not fix lazy, unaccountable people. How are those schools still being funded? If you want to see what liberal policies do to people look no further than Chicago - Murder capital, illiteracy capital and zero accountability. The mayor is constantly blaming everything and everyone under the sun for the disaster that is Chicago. Zero blame to the students who aren’t trying, the parents that raised them that way or the administrators that allow it.
Omg you're soooo close to putting all the pieces together.
I mean 80mm people voted for Trump, sooo…
Chicago just recorded its lowest annual murder total in decades. Chicago is 22nd in murder rate in the country.
Chicago’s school problems are due to historic redlining, neoliberal disinvestment, racism from the Daley machine pre-80s, and privatization.
Illiteracy is a national problem with a number of complex issues that can’t solely be blamed on a single political party
Revenue mean cash in before deducting expenses. You’re confusing revenues with profits. The government exists and requires money to run and provide the services that we all depend on. You like roads? Revenue. You like clean water? Revenue. You like the cashier you deal with at the gas station or grocery store to read and know basic math? Revenue. Ironically , the exact opposite argument is made constantly by conservatives against the USPS…that it doesn’t make a profit and in favor of the billionaire/CEO to politician pipeline because “we should run the government like a business”. The government is functionally a non profit. Its mission is service and not return to shareholders, but it’s still dependent mechanistically on cash in vs cash out.
Means testing has been repeatedly demonstrated to ultimately cost the taxpayer more than it actually saves.
Two posts above this one you’re arguing against a livable minimum wage. Which is it? People should be able to survive off of a full time wage, society should work to fill those gaps, or are you in favor of the third option where the time delay required to upskill and move beyond basic minimum wage work creates a functionally permanent underclass for those without the social and familial support networks to float them while they find a way up the ladder depend on high interest debt and illicit activities for survival?
South Carolina public schools have an 87% graduation rate with 54-60% reading proficiency at graduation. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
Why did this become a problem - “without the social and familial support networks” - I believe it is from giving those people free money. The government created this. That’s exactly what kidmike is saying I think. They don’t rely on themselves or each other, they depend solely on the government. That’s a huge problem. Government intervenes and the recipients quit trying.
There’s no excuse on planet earth to have 85% of HS graduates illiterate. None. Redline, racism, none of it. That was from 2024 btw. You telling it’s because of racism? Good grief man. No scenario where that should be acceptable.
Where are you getting the 85% illiterate number? I do think functional illiteracy (adults reading at or below a 6th grade level) is a major problem in this country and is something that is happening everywhere