GREAT Piece by Fonseca on Pikiell Playing Caveman Basketball

[RAC93]

I am a Francis fan, but I think he is only going to excel on a bad team where he is the focal point and taking the majority of the shots. On better teams, he is likely an afterthought. He is not a good defender or rebounder

Cliff was an afterthought at Alabama, but he was tempted to take look at what else was out there and he left for more money. Now, while Rutgers will have more money next year, we still won’t have near the money of any of the top programs in the country. A top program has no issue dropping money on quality players even if they will only play a role on the team, Francis does not have to be a focal point in order to get paid. Cliff got paid for what amounted to nearly a Sopranos no show job at Alabama. Francis could be a scoring punch off the bench/role player for a quality winning program and still get a high amount of NIL that could be more than Rutgers can afford. Just because programs will be after Francis does not mean he’s going to the their #1 player and focal point, they may just want him for a specific role and also pay him more NIL than Rutgers may have, both can be true.

 

[Knight Shift]

Most damning quotes are by former PSU player Myles Dread. Really good piece worth reading.

“A lot of times in a scouting report, you’re always looking to go over the team’s most used sets and you’re preparing for that pretty much in that two-to-three day prep period that you have,” Dread said. “With Rutgers, you spend about 30 minutes working on their sets and the rest of the time, you’re just practicing guarding one-on-one.” - Myles Dread

Pikiell is "playing?" He still has eligibility?

 

[mugrat86]

Amazing that all the people here who are listening to Myles Dread but ignoring statements of our opponents coaches especially one of the best ever

 

[seansherm]

Cliff was an afterthought at Alabama, but he was tempted to take look at what else was out there and he left for more money. Now, while Rutgers will have more money next year, we still won’t have near the money of any of the top programs in the country. A top program has no issue dropping money on quality players even if they will only play a role on the team, Francis does not have to be a focal point in order to get paid. Cliff got paid for what amounted to nearly a Sopranos no show job at Alabama. Francis could be a scoring punch off the bench/role player for a quality winning program and still get a high amount of NIL that could be more than Rutgers can afford. Just because programs will be after Francis does not mean he’s going to the their #1 player and focal point, they may just want him for a specific role and also pay him more NIL than Rutgers may have, both can be true.

I'd argue Cliff was at his best at Bama, was used right, did similar to what he did at RU just played less. Fewer blocks because he had better players around him, but moved the ball on O much better too.

 

[RedTeamUpstream94]

The article very succinctly points out the FUNDAMENTAL flaw with pike in modern basketball….

his offense is predicated on having talented players create their own shots in isolation… and those players now cost $$$$$$…. Which we dont (and won’t) have compared to our competition.

So it’s never going to work !!

Unless he fundamentally changes his offensive approach, brings in some offensive guru to create an offensive SYSTEM.

many on here have said the same over the years - but the article addresses the fundamental problem well.

 

[mugrat86]

I'd argue Cliff was at his best at Bama, was used right, did similar to what he did at RU just played less. Fewer blocks because he had better players around him, but moved the ball on O much better too.

He was better because Bama never posted him up and all his offense came from pick and roll dunks or offensive rebounds. Pike tried to make Cliff a good post player, however it just wasn't something Cliff could do

 

[mugrat86]

Francis is better than anyone penn state has

Funny I don't remember Penn State offering Francis. Pretty sure nobody wanted him

 

[mugrat86]

You clearly didnt read the article. The article lays out a decade worth of stats and this is just who steve pikiell is. No clue offensively

Funny how Fonseca doesn't know what he is talking about when he is critical of your football coach

 

[RW90]

It is a known fact that Pike has the worst talent in the league by a long shot.

But was the offensive sets really all that different even when his teams had offensive options? I don't think so.

 

[mugrat86]

But was the offensive sets really all that different even when his teams had offensive options? I don't think so.

How do you suppose he convinced Dylan and Ace to come here if his offense was as bad as you suggest?

 

[satnom]

Last year’s team even with a limited post up moves scoring center like Cliff RU goes to NCAAs with Ace and Dylan.

This year’s team with a Cliff level center wins another 4-5 games.

We have no inside scoring presence, no pick and roll ability with defenders all covering the outside. All the pressure are on the guards and forwards acting like guards to generate offense.

3s taken over 2s taken is over played in that at end of the day you have to hit open shots. An inside scoring threat for RU opens up the offense for better looking 3s and 2s. We clearly don’t have a scoring presence in the paint which limits our offense.

I would argue that RU has not had a legit scoring center since 3-4th yr Myles Johnson.

GO RU

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

So I quickly read through the article.

Dread calling us goons... gee, that's original, never heard anyone call us that before. Whatever. I will go with Painter calling those teams tough and full of guys that he'd go to war with.

Francis... the article says he is inefficient for a high volume guy. There is some truth to that, although his effective FG% may be dragged down by the lack of quality options on the floor with him - especially in the front court. Put a top scoring 4 or 5 out there that the D needs to respecting watch what happens.

Buzz said it in that article. This year's team is doing what it needs to do to try to score.

 

[JL23]

He's dead man walking
Can't fire him now b/c of his contract, but I'd assume he's gone next year without drastic improvement

Squandered an opportunity of a lifetime w/2 top 5 picks
Won't recover, and it's a shame b/c he's a great guy and brought us out of the abyss

 

[seansherm]

So I quickly read through the article.

Dread calling us goons... gee, that's original, never heard anyone call us that before. Whatever. I will go with Painter calling those teams tough and full of guys that he'd go to war with.

Francis... the article says he is inefficient for a high volume guy. There is some truth to that, although his effective FG% may be dragged down by the lack of quality options on the floor with him - especially in the front court. Put a top scoring 4 or 5 out there that the D needs to respecting watch what happens.

Buzz said it in that article. This year's team is doing what it needs to do to try to score.

Francis true shooting percentage is highest on the team, besides the two centers, because of his free throw ability added in

 

[Caliknight]

How much does Francis make? I'm guessing around $300,000. He is our best player. I would guarantee you that every other conference foe's best player makes at least 5 times that number

There are players on other teams that make more than our entire roster. Pike does play meathead ball. Like our football coach. Though that’s gotten a little better.

 

[LotusAggressor_rivals]

It's fine to say RU has to play "math ball" to win more. 3 points are worth more than 2. What is missed in these analytics discussions is that is that you need players who can make shots at a percentage that makes the math work. You also need to run an offense that maximizes the opportunities for good shooters to make shots. How many good shooters are on this team? How many really good offensive players are on this team?

 

[NBKnight]

Good (if damning) article. And I know foul shooting was not the focal point of the article but I’ve been impressed with Rutgers on that front this year and was surprised to learn they’re only 149th nationally.

Teams are just so stacked in the middle, a one percent improvement, which is just six more free throws made over the course of 29 games, would jump the team nearly 50 spots.

 

[NickRU714]

It's fine to say RU has to play "math ball" to win more. 3 points are worth more than 2. What is missed in these analytics discussions is that is that you need players who can make shots at a percentage that makes the math work. You also need to run an offense that maximizes the opportunities for good shooters to make shots. How many good shooters are on this team? How many really good offensive players are on this team?

No. What you are s missing is that none of these discussions are about one particular team or ine set of players.

Its about the over arching objectives and plan for the program.

You want to say "2025-2026 team doesnt have the shooters?
Ok fine. Hopefully one year aberration.
It happens.

The problem is that it doesn't appear to be an aberration or gap year between getting the type of players we really want.

Its a year over year item.
It appears to be a deliberate choice and system to deprioritize shooting ability in recruits and transfers.

 

[NickRU714]

Take the football team.
Clearly we have moved to incorporate more passing as a focus of the offense.

But this year we'll have a 1st time starting QB.
So if we "slip" back to being run oriented - it would make sense.
But ideally the goal is in 2027 Surace is more confident and ready to throw more in games.

Thats not what is happening for the basketball program.

 

[LotusAggressor_rivals]

No. What you are s missing is that none of these discussions are about one particular team or ine set of players.

Its about the over arching objectives and plan for the program.

You want to say "2025-2026 team doesnt have the shooters?
Ok fine. Hopefully one year aberration.
It happens.

The problem is that it doesn't appear to be an aberration or gap year between getting the type of players we really want.

Its a year over year item.
It appears to be a deliberate choice and system to deprioritize shooting ability in recruits and transfers.

Or to deliberately put the few players who actually can shoot at the biggest possible disadvantage. That's been a problem across several coaching regimes.

 

[RUgal]

Fonseca also spoke with Joe Jackson, who made the same point as a lot of posters above: “Rutgers likes to have more athleticism with less focus on skill, so when you combine that with Rutgers relying on being able to create one-on-one and taking tough jumpers, it means they basically have to be perfect offensively to have any chance of being very good.”

Interestingly, Jackson posted a video recently that explains why Purdue is still winning despite taking a lot of mid-range jumpers:

 

[FAT MOON]

Fonseca also spoke with Joe Jackson, who made the same point as a lot of posters above: “Rutgers likes to have more athleticism with less focus on skill, so when you combine that with Rutgers relying on being able to create one-on-one and taking tough jumpers, it means they basically have to be perfect offensively to have any chance of being very good.”

Interestingly, Jackson posted a video recently that explains why Purdue is still winning despite taking a lot of mid-range jumpers:

good watch thanks for posting....

i didn't realize Painter also had no idea about "modern basketball"...who would've thunk it

 

[FAT MOON]

So he’s a good decision. Other players on our roster making the same or more are bad evaluation decisions. It’s a net negative for our coaching staff

So question for you since you said net negative.

Seems to be relatively understood that we had bottom 3 NIL money along with PSU and Nebby.

What Nebby is doing is ridiculous. Guessing all the winning will help them get out of the bottom 3 next season...but will be curious to watch if Hoiberg can outkick his NIL position by that much again. If he does just build him the statue now, lol.

PSU is the worst team in the league and it's not super close.

So that leaves us. Coming in 14th out of 18 teams isn't anything to write home about (if current position holds), but it is also above where we'd be projected to finish based on the money.

So my actual question is: what place in the B1G would RU have to come in for this year to be considered successful? 8th? With a winning B1G record? I just don't see how that can be the expectation given our constraints.

 

[LeGrandWhiskeySour]

Did you listen to the Keli Zion interview where she stated multiple B1G schools have one player who was paid more then the entire RU team!!!

She did not state that. Carino said it, and she didn't dispute it, but didn't say he was correct either. How could he possibly know that? Is there actually a $4 million player in the Big Ten?

 

[Degaz-RU]

She did not state that. Carino said it, and she didn't dispute it, but didn't say he was correct either. How could he possibly know that? Is there actually a $4 million player in the Big Ten?

I don't know about $4 million specifically, but I think Yaxel Lendeborg is close.

 

[goru7]

The criticism of Pike previously in not emphasizing the 3 might have some truth to it but there is some proof that he tried. He recruited Cam Spencer to shoot threes . Cam shot well but probably could have been even better. He recruited PJHayes and martini but particularly Hayes for 3’s but it did not work out with Dylan and Ace. He has made an attempt halfway thru this year to emphasize 3’s when he inserted Zrno and Powers into the starting lineup. The sets on the wing with screens do set up 3’s but we haven’t hit enough of them. Our corner 3’s should be automatic but they are not. The best 3 attempts come in transition or after penetration and kick outs. Francis only over the last 8 or so games has made a conscious effort to penetrate and dish to Zrno , Powers or even to Grant behind the line. Although Zrno has hit 3 threes in multiple games it is still not enough. Not going inside and playing inside out also limits our good 3 point looks so a competent center would be helpful. Frankly , if we could make more of our 2 point shots and our foul shots we likely win more games. Too many games shooting 38-40 % instead of 48-50%.

 

[dark_check]

So question for you since you said net negative.

Seems to be relatively understood that we had bottom 3 NIL money along with PSU and Nebby.

What Nebby is doing is ridiculous. Guessing all the winning will help them get out of the bottom 3 next season...but will be curious to watch if Hoiberg can outkick his NIL position by that much again. If he does just build him the statue now, lol.

PSU is the worst team in the league and it's not super close.

So that leaves us. Coming in 14th out of 18 teams isn't anything to write home about (if current position holds), but it is also above where we'd be projected to finish based on the money.

So my actual question is: what place in the B1G would RU have to come in for this year to be considered successful? 8th? With a winning B1G record? I just don't see how that can be the expectation given our constraints.

It baffles me why folks are so quick to dismiss Neb or UCF (I know not Big Ten) doing more with less. Would it be better to have more NIL? Yes!!!!!!!! But we have to stop crying sisters of the poor. Pikes issues started before NIL plus next year he’ll have a lot more so let’s see.

Your question is interesting and good. 14th is a function of getting PSU and Md twice. Getting NW and Ore at home. I saw media recently (espn or SI) had us rated last in their power rankings. So are we really the 14th best team? That being said you are what your record is and had we beaten Minne and Wash just in front of us I would have considered that successful given our roster.

 

[goru7]

It baffles me why folks are so quick to dismiss Neb or UCF (I know not Big Ten) doing more with less. Would it be better to have more NIL? Yes!!!!!!!! But we have to stop crying sisters of the poor. Pikes issues started before NIL plus next year he’ll have a lot more so let’s see.

Your question is interesting and good. 14th is a function of getting PSU and Md twice. Getting NW and Ore at home. I saw media recently (espn or SI) had us rated last in their power rankings. So are we really the 14th best team? That being said you are what your record is and had we beaten Minne and Wash just in front of us I would have considered that successful given our roster.

You cite UCF but Johnny Dawkins has not made the NCAA in 4 years and was on the hot seat before this year. That would have a guy like you clamoring to fire him which iud what you write about Pike on these boards. So you citing that is rather shallow. You cannot even admit the Covid year would have been 3 years in a row in the NCAA and the Mag injury year where we were in the field on 99% of the brackets would have been 4 years in a row in the dance.and the NCAA flat out screwed us. Yeah the year after sucked. Last year with Dylan and ACE we were discussed by the whole country and not retaining Cliff or Mag because of $ cost us a chance at not just the dance but a deep run in the dance as the defense and rim protection disappeared. This year the team has limited talent and it has sucked and been disappointing . Maybe more NiL gets better talent and the wins increase. Just maybe.
Who cares about a stupid ESPN metric when the reality is we are 5-0 against the bottom 4 teams in the big 10 and we are not one of them and most likely not to be playing on the first day. You cannot even comment whatout bringing a negative like the ESPN piece into your point. Not every post has to include a negative. Really ?

 

[bac2therac]

they moved from aac to big 12 so cant judge him like that.

Pikes recruiting the year we were snubbed doomed us..that is on him and its before nil. The excuses EVERY year for Pike are endless including the whole narrative now formed about last season

 

[dark_check]

You cite UCF but Johnny Dawkins has not made the NCAA in 4 years and was on the hot seat before this year. That would have a guy like you clamoring to fire him which iud what you write about Pike on these boards. So you citing that is rather shallow. You cannot even admit the Covid year would have been 3 years in a row in the NCAA and the Mag injury year where we were in the field on 99% of the brackets would have been 4 years in a row in the dance.and the NCAA flat out screwed us. Yeah the year after sucked. Last year with Dylan and ACE we were discussed by the whole country and not retaining Cliff or Mag because of $ cost us a chance at not just the dance but a deep run in the dance as the defense and rim protection disappeared. This year the team has limited talent and it has sucked and been disappointing . Maybe more NiL gets better talent and the wins increase. Just maybe.
Who cares about a stupid ESPN metric when the reality is we are 5-0 against the bottom 4 teams in the big 10 and we are not one of them and most likely not to be playing on the first day. You cannot even comment whatout bringing a negative like the ESPN piece into your point. Not every post has to include a negative. Really ?

Celebrate your first day conf tourney bye. If that’s the participation trophy that gets you excited good for you. And your last sentence is the root problem of the Polly Anna’s like you on this board. The espn article REALLY EXISTS. it’s the perception of national media. It’s reality not negativity. I’m a realist. Not negative. When I see a good product on the court I’ll comment positively. It’s funny you don’t want to credit espn but you want to cite bracket makers and give Pike credit for a 2022-23 ncaa tourney team. Ok lol. Live in that fantasy world. The reality is Pikes pre NIL recruiting prevented us from having the depth needed to overcome the Mag injury. His lack of accountability had kids dancing on the bench at Minne in the loss that cost us an ACTUAL, not imagined, ncaa berth. Five plus years ago I was positive. Some of Watters years I was very happy. Liked most of the Wenzel era. The last few years the reality is there’s nothing to be positive about unless you’re into moral victories.

 

[dark_check]

You cite UCF but Johnny Dawkins has not made the NCAA in 4 years and was on the hot seat before this year. That would have a guy like you clamoring to fire him which iud what you write about Pike on these boards. So you citing that is rather shallow. You cannot even admit the Covid year would have been 3 years in a row in the NCAA and the Mag injury year where we were in the field on 99% of the brackets would have been 4 years in a row in the dance.and the NCAA flat out screwed us. Yeah the year after sucked. Last year with Dylan and ACE we were discussed by the whole country and not retaining Cliff or Mag because of $ cost us a chance at not just the dance but a deep run in the dance as the defense and rim protection disappeared. This year the team has limited talent and it has sucked and been disappointing . Maybe more NiL gets better talent and the wins increase. Just maybe.
Who cares about a stupid ESPN metric when the reality is we are 5-0 against the bottom 4 teams in the big 10 and we are not one of them and most likely not to be playing on the first day. You cannot even comment whatout bringing a negative like the ESPN piece into your point. Not every post has to include a negative. Really ?

And instead of killing me anout Dawkins shouldn’t the point be what could we learn from that? He turned over almost his whole old roster. So many on here just call Pike a master developer and want to retain almost this whole team. Dawkins went out and got D. Folks here credit Pike as a master def coach who can coach anyone up on d. Except. He hasn’t. Dawkins went out and got efficient 3 point shooters. Pike is content with long twos. What can we learn from ucf should be the goal, no defending and making excuses for what’s been done. LISTEN, I want Pike to make the NCAAs next year but no, I don’t feel more money is the end all be all. He has to adjust in his ways.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Francis true shooting percentage is highest on the team, besides the two centers, because of his free throw ability added in

This. And he’s getting to the line in large part based on his ability to draw contact on shot attempts. So I’m not getting what the fuss is about. No way to know what his role would or should be on another team (Pike coached or other) but the shots he’s taking are, in fact, more efficient than the shots everyone else is capable of (the bigs basically have to be wide open under the hoop or get a put back - pounding it in to them is not a viable strategy as the struggle to even field passes cleanly).

The bottom line is that the point glossed over in all the dart throwing is that the successful Pike teams we’ve had had elite offensive rebounders on them and were top statistically in that category. That skill goes hand in hand with the D first focus (a lot of defense first kids are also good on the offensive glass). We don’t have that right now. We stink at offensive rebounding. Dread actually mentions that those teams were good at it back then. It’s a huge factor.

Why do I say this? This is the reason to hold
Some hope for Pike. Tariq is as good an iso scorer as anyone whose played for us on those teams. He might not be as good at some other things but he is a better pure scorer than the other guards Geo, Tez, Caleb, etc. maybe similar to JY - less explosive but also less wild.

Add some guys that grab offensive boards along with better D and we’re much better. That’s a much better one year plan for Pike than thinking he’s going to successfully reinvent the wheel next season.

 

[NewHondo77]

It was a good enough offense to attract Dylan and Ace

They came here for the money and to audition for the NBA.

 

[mugrat86]

They came here for the money and to audition for the NBA.

They could have gotten the same money somewhere else. The audition would have been a lot better at Duke

 

[bac2therac]

They could have gotten the same money somewhere else. The audition would have been a lot better at Duke

no they wouldnt be able to exclusively pad the stats which they were able to do here because cleared the roster out for them....duh i mean flagg was at duke, why are ace and dylan going to be 2nd and 3rd options...fact is there was a limited amount of schools who have spots available for both

 

[Caliknight]

She did not state that. Carino said it, and she didn't dispute it, but didn't say he was correct either. How could he possibly know that? Is there actually a $4 million player in the Big Ten?

Purdue's PG is making $4MM this year. Michigan HC had him all but poached offering $4MM to transfer. Purdue wound up matching it and he stayed.

 

[mugrat86]

They came here for the money and to audition for the NBA.

They could have gotten the same money somewhere else. The audition would have been a lot better at

no they wouldnt be able to exclusively pad the stats which they were able to do here because cleared the roster out for them....duh i mean flagg was at duke, why are ace and dylan going to be 2nd and 3rd options...fact is there was a limited amount of schools who have spots available for both

i was saying Dylan could have played with Flagg at Duke.

 

[bac2therac]

They could have gotten the same money somewhere else. The audition would have been a lot better at

i was saying Dylan could have played with Flagg at Duke.

Why? He was the prime show here

 

[KnightTerrors]

He’s coming back on a prove it year with his career on the line. Hard to imagine he changes his philosophy.

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

Yeah, if only Dylan went to Duke, he might have been taken 2nd in the draft.