I don't know why you're avoiding answering, it's very simple. Do you support free speech?
Where my free speech people at?
- Thread starter dbjork6317
- Start date
I don't know why you're avoiding answering, it's very simple. Do you support free speech?
Its because he's a fake ***,knowitall, trolling little ***** with no integrity.
When you make him look dumb, as I did many,many times, he will block you so he can continue to feel smart.
in order to get a security clearance you have to go through a background check, and you in turn are authorized to see data based on your clearance be it confidential, secret, top secret, or higher. The basic rule is you have to "have a need to know" in order to access the data. Just because you are cleared to see "secret" documents, that doesn't mean you get access to all secret documents.
And yes, or no, depending on your perspective, you cannot pass on classified data to someone either verbally or in writing, even if that person has an equivalent clearance, if there is not a "need to know".
So why is it acceptable for the government to have a separate set of speech laws for the military? That doesn't sound like absolute free speech to me. Why is it acceptable to have criminal punishments for a civilian to tell an enemy government state secrets?
Yeah. I am the one twisting myself in knots.
I can telly you why military has separate laws...
the military has separate laws and regulations, primarily the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), to govern its unique needs for discipline, good order, and mission accomplishment, creating a distinct legal system (military justice) that runs parallel to civilian law, with its own codes, courts (courts-martial), and specific offenses like desertion or disobeying orders, though service members are also subject to civilian laws.
Key Reasons for Separate Laws:
- Discipline & Good Order: The military requires strict discipline and obedience for effective functioning, which civilian law doesn't fully address.
- Unique Offenses: The UCMJ includes crimes specific to military life, such as desertion, mutiny, disrespect toward a superior, and dereliction of duty.
- Constitutional Authority: Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution grants Congress power to make rules for the armed forces, establishing this separate system.
- Specialized System: It has its own courts (trial and appellate), prosecutors, defense attorneys (JAGs), and unique procedures, notes this legal blog and this Reddit thread.
- Service Members are Subject to Both: A service member must follow both civilian laws (federal, state, local) and military law.
- Jurisdiction: Military law applies globally based on a person's status as a service member, unlike civilian law, which is usually based on geography.
- Commander's Role: Military commanders have significant authority within the legal process, a concept absent in civilian courts.
- Jury Verdicts: UCMJ often requires less than a unanimous vote (e.g., three-fourths) for conviction, unlike the civilian requirement for unanimous jury verdicts in most serious cases, says this blog post.
- Punishments: Penalties can include discharge, demotion, or confinement, and historically, even the death penalty.
- Constitutional Rights: While service members retain basic rights, some constitutional rights (like grand jury indictment) are modified due to military necessity, notes this First Amendment Encyclopedia article.
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I understand, personally. I don't think that @fatpiggy can simultaneously claim to be a free speech absolutlist and then also be fine with these speech restrictions surrounding classifieds information. He's very obviously fine with censoring certain types of speech afterall.
Correct. You are twisting trying to find some technical exception. While my position is straight free speech.
No doubt you would censor social media posts that hurt your feelings if you could.
well, this really isn't my debate, but on classified information, there are laws/EOs that cover release.
No I get it. I'm just surprised a principled free speech Absolutist like @fatpiggy claims to be would be ok with this.
I've never claimed to be a free speech Absolutist. I said anyone who claims to be one is either a liar or a moron and my boy FP has done nothing to disabuse me of that notion (really he's just done the opposite).
Keep twisting. Like an animal in a trap.
you should go hang out on Reddit. They are great at censorship. You would love it there.
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Keep twisting. Like an animal in a trap.
you should go hang out on Reddit. They are great at censorship. You would love it there.
How is it you have no basic concept of what "free speech" means, and what the protection of it entails?Keep twisting. Like an animal in a trap.
you should go hang out on Reddit. They are great at censorship. You would love it there.
It's brutal watching someone like you pretend they know, but illustrate that you haven't the foggiest.
Quiet, piggy.
I bet you could go to an adult learning center and take a reading comprehension course if you were interested in being less of an embarrassment. If that's your schtick, though, please carry on.
Oh it's definitely his schtick. When he is made to look dumb, he ignores it, then starts rage posting examples from social media, then starts flooding the board with personal attacks.
Free speech my ***
Disgusting! Bone Spurs and Hegseth have moved to reduce Kelly's retirement grade which will lead to a corresponding reduction in retirement pay, along with a censure - for simply stating the truth. Hegseth also blatantly lied about it in the last paragraph. God, I hate this administration...
LIE
"These actions are based on Captain Kelly's public statements from June through December 2025 in which he characterized lawful military operations as illegal and counseled members of the Armed Forces to refuse lawful orders. This conduct was seditious in nature and violated Articles 133 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, to which Captain Kelly remains subject as a retired officer receiving pay."
"Over twenty-five years in the U.S. Navy, thirty-nine combat missions, and four missions to space, I risked my life for this country and to defend our Constitution – including the First Amendment rights of every American to speak out. I never expected that the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense would attack me for doing exactly that.
My rank and retirement are things that I earned through my service and sacrifice for this country. I got shot at. I missed holidays and birthdays. I commanded a space shuttle mission while my wife Gabby recovered from a gunshot wound to the head– all while proudly wearing the American flag on my shoulder. Generations of servicemembers have made these same patriotic sacrifices for this country, earning the respect, appreciation, and rank they deserve.
Pete Hegseth wants to send the message to every single retired servicemember that if they say something he or Donald Trump doesn’t like, they will come after them the same way. It’s outrageous and it is wrong. There is nothing more un-American than that.
If Pete Hegseth, the most unqualified Secretary of Defense in our country’s history, thinks he can intimidate me with a censure or threats to demote me or prosecute me, he still doesn’t get it. I will fight this with everything I’ve got — not for myself, but to send a message back that Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump don’t get to decide what Americans in this country get to say about their government."
Disgusting! Bone Spurs and Hegseth have moved to reduce Kelly's retirement grade which will lead to a corresponding reduction in retirement pay, along with a censure - for simply stating the truth. Hegseth also blatantly lied about it in the last paragraph. God, I hate this administration...
LIE"These actions are based on Captain Kelly's public statements from June through December 2025 in which he characterized lawful military operations as illegal and counseled members of the Armed Forces to refuse lawful orders. This conduct was seditious in nature and violated Articles 133 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, to which Captain Kelly remains subject as a retired officer receiving pay."
"Over twenty-five years in the U.S. Navy, thirty-nine combat missions, and four missions to space, I risked my life for this country and to defend our Constitution – including the First Amendment rights of every American to speak out. I never expected that the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense would attack me for doing exactly that.
My rank and retirement are things that I earned through my service and sacrifice for this country. I got shot at. I missed holidays and birthdays. I commanded a space shuttle mission while my wife Gabby recovered from a gunshot wound to the head– all while proudly wearing the American flag on my shoulder. Generations of servicemembers have made these same patriotic sacrifices for this country, earning the respect, appreciation, and rank they deserve.
Pete Hegseth wants to send the message to every single retired servicemember that if they say something he or Donald Trump doesn’t like, they will come after them the same way. It’s outrageous and it is wrong. There is nothing more un-American than that.
If Pete Hegseth, the most unqualified Secretary of Defense in our country’s history, thinks he can intimidate me with a censure or threats to demote me or prosecute me, he still doesn’t get it. I will fight this with everything I’ve got — not for myself, but to send a message back that Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump don’t get to decide what Americans in this country get to say about their government."
Free speech my ***
Disgusting! Bone Spurs and Hegseth have moved to reduce Kelly's retirement grade which will lead to a corresponding reduction in retirement pay, along with a censure - for simply stating the truth. Hegseth also blatantly lied about it in the last paragraph. God, I hate this administration...
"These actions are based on Captain Kelly's public statements from June through December 2025 in which he characterized lawful military operations as illegal and counseled members of the Armed Forces to refuse lawful orders. This conduct was seditious in nature and violated Articles 133 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, to which Captain Kelly remains subject as a retired officer receiving pay."
"Over twenty-five years in the U.S. Navy, thirty-nine combat missions, and four missions to space, I risked my life for this country and to defend our Constitution – including the First Amendment rights of every American to speak out. I never expected that the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense would attack me for doing exactly that.
My rank and retirement are things that I earned through my service and sacrifice for this country. I got shot at. I missed holidays and birthdays. I commanded a space shuttle mission while my wife Gabby recovered from a gunshot wound to the head– all while proudly wearing the American flag on my shoulder. Generations of servicemembers have made these same patriotic sacrifices for this country, earning the respect, appreciation, and rank they deserve.
Pete Hegseth wants to send the message to every single retired servicemember that if they say something he or Donald Trump doesn’t like, they will come after them the same way. It’s outrageous and it is wrong. There is nothing more un-American than that.
If Pete Hegseth, the most unqualified Secretary of Defense in our country’s history, thinks he can intimidate me with a censure or threats to demote me or prosecute me, he still doesn’t get it. I will fight this with everything I’ve got — not for myself, but to send a message back that Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump don’t get to decide what Americans in this country get to say about their government."
I think he can appeal by requesting a court martial instead. Will be interesting to see if he does that. There is risk because the punishment is likely harsher, but could also overturn.
If I'm reading it correctly, based on this comment, I don't believe it's a done deal yet
"The department has initiated retirement grade determination proceedings under 10 U.S.C. § 1370(f), with reduction in his retired grade resulting in a corresponding reduction in retired pay."
But if it is approved, could he not appeal it without asking for a court martial? Either way, I'm sure Kelly will fight it and it will be overturned regardless under the next administration, assuming the Democrats win.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, was just what I read, so we'll see!
Wish @ANEW would come back and opine.
I second that, I didn't agree with him much but he was a very good poster. Wonder what happened to him?
I had to take a break from the negativity and general retardation that this board has in spades. It was starting to make me crazy. But now, like a malevolent spirit summoned by kids playing with a ouija board, I am back. You'll probably regret it.
I appreciate that comment, even though it is a little tough to hear. I'll try and be better so that you don't like me all of the time, but I'll admit to being a work in progress, so i'll probably fall shortWe still appreciate you even if we don't like you at times, LOL
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Oh no worries, I never liked you all of the time anyway and in fact, I gave you the badge that you use as your avatar, LOL. But that doesn't mean I can't respect your intelligence, writing skills and your knowledge of military matters. So no need to worry about what I think, just do you. We badly need more respectable conservative voices on the board, even if we disagree at times.
Definitely understand that ha.
While we disagree on most things, you can actually add to the discussion around here with some amount of expertise on a subject. It is valued.
Kelly crossed the line with his participation in that video, IMO. Shockingly so, in my opinion. Yes, but they were talking about "illegal orders". UCMJ is different than civilian law. Parcing words doesn't work with the UCMJ. Literally, you could say "Yes, Sir" to a superior and still get jammed up under the UCMJ. Heck, don't say anythign, maybe just roll your eyes or make a gesture and taht's all that it takes. It's all about the situation, how it was intended, and how the words/actions were PERCEIVED regardless of intent.
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Can he appeal if they reduce his retirement rank or would that be something you wouldn't know?
I'll have to do some research, tbh.
Recalling officers to active duty to get their pee pee slapped is not an everyday thing, but it happens. Recall to active duty is easy. reducting in rank to (last rank honorably served) is an admin thing. not crimminal. so that's the way that things normally go. burden of proof for admin action is a lot lower, options to contest more limited procedurally. Get recalled, get your public shaming, lose the rank(s), get your retired pay lowered and then get your *** kicked back out the door. The "censure" part is basically a strongly worded letter that will be placed in kelly's official file. Doesn't mean a thing, in practice. Still on active duty (pre-retirement) and it's career execution, retired guy? Doesnt' do a thing.. but it is is a the first shot. SecWar saying ... you did a no-no. Can leave it at that or can move on to try and grab a bigger bite, which is what i think is going on. We'll see.
The big unusual thing here is that normally (always?) the recall is about something that happend while on active duty that is now just coming to light, as opposed to him being held on active duty and prevented from retiring until he faced the music. An example woudl be, retired 0-6 (Colonel/Captain). It now comes to light that the guy somehow before getting promoted to 0-5 started wearing unathorized awards and somehow got those awards annotated in his promotion board file. You would say taht his promotion to 0-5 and then to 0-6 was partially due to his falsification of his awards so last rank served honorably was 0-4. He gets busted back to Major/Lt. Commander, has his retired pay reduced accordingly and probably fined to recoup some of the money that he has collected on top of that.
So that's what makes this whole thing really wild...like seeing a unicorn, wild.