It could have been us

AdamOnFirst

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The “cutoff” that NU’s admissions office uses is being in the top half of a graduating class, which is incredibly dumb because (I) many high schools don’t even report that information and (II) there are a litany of factors that go into class rank that have exactly no bearing on a player’s ability to graduate from NU.

Because you danced around it so often, here’s the “baseline” criteria that NU’s admission office looked for back in the day:
  • >3.0 core unweighted GPA
  • >1000 SAT or >20 ACT
  • Top half of HS class, if reported
Like I said before, not exactly “difficult” criteria but a whole heck of a lot higher than the NCAA minimums; there used to be a sliding scale of eligibility based on GPA and test score for NCAA eligibility that was laughably low, which has been scrapped in favor of >16 core courses with a >2.3 GPA with no standardized test requirement (which is also pretty laughably low, especially considering special treatment that prospective D1 athletes typically receive in high school).

Winning on the field while achieving academically and graduating our players is the goal, not some kind of lofty admission requirement that nobody outside of a small portion of the NU fan base even knows about.

Frankly, I could give two ***** how a kid performed academically in high school so long as he graduates from NU. And, even more frankly, it’s a whole helluva lot more difficult to get into NU than it is to graduate (especially with the special treatment and resources available to athletes).

To that end, the whole debate is this: NU has achieved extremely good academic success on the team with admission requirements well below that of the general population, so how much lower could those go assuming academic performance remains adequate and how much can/could that help us be more competitive on the field?

In my opinion I think NU’s coaches should have the latitude to operate within the NCAA framework so long as team academic performance remains amongst the best in the country.
I love how a guy who doesn’t even have the faintest clue how the admissions requirements even work or what they are is SO COMMITTED to them remaining at their exact current level, despite being ignorant of that level, regardless of players at different levels potentially being able to achieve excellent bottom line results in graduating with an NU degree.

Very obviously we could pass more football applicants through our admissions office while still maintaining character and scholarly standards that indicate a player is ready to handle a college course load and still have sky high academic achievement and a program filled with impressing young men
 
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Purple Pile Driver

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I love how a guy who doesn’t even have the faintest clue how the admissions requirements even work or what they are is SO COMMITTED to them remaining at their exact current level, despite being ignorant of that level, regardless of players at different levels potentially being able to achieve excellent bottom line results in graduating with an NU degree.

Very obviously we could pass more football applicants through our admissions office while still maintaining character and scholarly standards that indicate a player is ready to handle a college course load and still have sky high academic achievement and a program filled with impressing young men
We’ve been playing ring around the Rosey for a few days now and I don’t even understand what his point is anymore. He has a poster that has worked in the AD who did this exact job and he won’t even concede that his test score numbers may be more informed than his “piecing it together”. I guess his argument is to keep the standards how they are because it makes NU different. Even if a relaxed standard made zero difference in academic performance once they enrolled at NU. To me, that makes no sense.
 

hdhntr1

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Must be that 26 quoted above was not so good of a source afterall,
Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.
 
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Purple Pile Driver

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Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.
I have zero inside knowledge, but I would be very surprised if in this day and age of big time revenue being produced by the football team that our academic standards have got tougher than they were in 2011.
 

Baz = Heisman

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1) No need to snipe at me. We’re all an NU family here. I do have an idea how this works.
  • My buddy who worked in the athletic department when the Pardon thing came through got those figures directly from the athletic department so they were not misreported by the player in question. Although I can see why we would always want to verify those, of course.
  • The Brzoja 4.0 GPA thing was reported by Inside NU (who does consistently have good sources given it is run by active students) and widely cited by other NU media members so I don’t think that was misreported either tbf.
2) If you pitched admissions and the athletic department on lowering admission standards for athletes to NCAA minimums (2.3 GPA and no ACT/SAT needed) you would get laughed out the door. Notre Dame started doing that in the Holtz days and they lost the plot as a result. The Paul Horning comments (Google them) said it all.

3) The “we need to lower our high standards” crowd is always lurking around yet gets ignored because we’ve shown we don’t need to do that. Would we win more consistently if we did? Maybe. Would those wins mean as much? Probably not, if you’re being honest with yourself.

From 2000, for example (and there are a few others an easy Google search away):

And we’ve done pretty well all things considered since then, haven’t we? :)
 

Gocatsgo2003

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Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.

No.
 

Gocatsgo2003

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1) No need to snipe at me. We’re all an NU family here. I do have an idea how this works.
  • My buddy who worked in the athletic department when the Pardon thing came through got those figures directly from the athletic department so they were not misreported by the player in question. Although I can see why we would always want to verify those, of course.
  • The Brzoja 4.0 GPA thing was reported by Inside NU (who does consistently have good sources given it is run by active students) and widely cited by other NU media members so I don’t think that was misreported either tbf.
2) If you pitched admissions and the athletic department on lowering admission standards for athletes to NCAA minimums (2.3 GPA and no ACT/SAT needed) you would get laughed out the door. Notre Dame started doing that in the Holtz days and they lost the plot as a result. The Paul Horning comments (Google them) said it all.

3) The “we need to lower our high standards” crowd is always lurking around yet gets ignored because we’ve shown we don’t need to do that. Would we win more consistently if we did? Maybe. Would those wins mean as much? Probably not, if you’re being honest with yourself.

From 2000, for example (and there are a few others an easy Google search away):

And we’ve done pretty well all things considered since then, haven’t we? :)

1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.
 
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AdamOnFirst

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1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.
One of the great thigns about being on this Board, and that I do miss about the Rock, is that there are some actual insiders and topic experts one can learn from. I would recommend Baz take this conversation as an opportunity to learn instead of BS'ing, because the people you're talking to know a lot more than you and you'll be smarter if you just listen.
 
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Baz = Heisman

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One of the great thigns about being on this Board, and that I do miss about the Rock, is that there are some actual insiders and topic experts one can learn from. I would recommend Baz take this conversation as an opportunity to learn instead of BS'ing, because the people you're talking to know a lot more than you and you'll be smarter if you just listen.
Thanks, Dad. You’re a genius. My bad.

I’m not the one who wants to fundamentally change something that has served us well - oh, I don’t know, forever - and which has also become a core principle of the program and brought in new fans and overall respect for us.

Given what I just saw about you loving NIL as it currently is… I’m afraid you’re too “woke” to understand that.
 

AdamOnFirst

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Thanks, Dad. You’re a genius. My bad.

I’m not the one who wants to fundamentally change something that has served us well - oh, I don’t know, forever - and which has also become a core principle of the program and brought in new fans and overall respect for us.

Given what I just saw about you loving NIL as it currently is… I’m afraid you’re too “woke” to understand that.
You are so hilarious confidently wrong, right down to calling me "woke." My friends would get a big big laugh out of that for more reasons than you know.
 

Baz = Heisman

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1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.
 

NU'06er

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we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

I can't speak to the broader points being debated here, as they fall outside my area of knowledge, but I would make the limited point that I do not think it is inherently arrogant to have a higher academic standard than the NCAA minimum.

People more in the know than me can argue what the standard should be, what is too lenient or stringent, what criteria should be involved, etc. and I'm likely to take a "reasonable minds can differ" view, because I do not work in collegiate admissions nor athletic recruiting and never have as to either category.

Perhaps Northwestern's on-the-ground version of "higher standards" specifically are indeed arrogantly higher than necessary, I don't know. Perhaps there is a different place on the scale we could land that would be less holier than thou and more of a reasoned, functioning degree of difference from the NCAA.

But I don't think it's arrogant to say that academic standards are a value our school is supposed to take seriously. And no one's ever gone broke betting on the NCAA's default position, especially by contrast, being bad judgment.
 
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Gocatsgo2003

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I can't speak to the broader points being debated here, as they fall outside my area of knowledge, but I would make the limited point that I do not think it is inherently arrogant to have a higher academic standard than the NCAA minimum.

People more in the know than me can argue what the standard should be, what is too lenient or stringent, what criteria should be involved, etc. and I'm likely to take a "reasonable minds can differ" view, because I do not work in collegiate admissions nor athletic recruiting and never have as to either category.

Perhaps Northwestern's on-the-ground version of "higher standards" specifically are indeed arrogantly higher than necessary, I don't know. Perhaps there is a different place on the scale we could land that would be less holier than thou and more of a reasoned, functioning degree of difference from the NCAA.

But I don't think it's arrogant to say that academic standards are a value our school is supposed to take seriously. And no one's ever gone broke betting on the NCAA's default position, especially by contrast, being bad judgment.

Inherently, no. Experientially, yes (Very yes).
 
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Gatabowl

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Yes. It gains us fans and respect from other fan bases. No one says “oh, Northwestern’s standards are too high… that’s mean to some kids.” Give me a freaking break.
You have lost me many, many times on this thread — I mean you got Gata of all posters to stop debating. That’s saying sometning.

But of all of the inane statements, “people are fans of NU because we make it harder to let athletes in” is my favorite. Even if that were true, no one is going through the effort to make the distinction about NU’s meaningful academic restrictions vs. other top schools. If anything, it’s “that’s a good school, I like how they’re good at sports.”
 

Purple Pile Driver

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Yes. It gains us fans and respect from other fan bases. No one says “oh, Northwestern’s standards are too high… that’s mean to some kids.” Give me a freaking break.
You are grasping for things now to support an argument that continues to go around in circles.
Other fan bases mostly laugh at us for being arrogant as they beat us on the field.
How many times can one poster get dunked on in a single thread?
 

Styre

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You have lost me many, many times on this thread — I mean you got Gata of all posters to stop debating. That’s saying sometning.

But of all of the inane statements, “people are fans of NU because we make it harder to let athletes in” is my favorite. Even if that were true, no one is going through the effort to make the distinction about NU’s meaningful academic restrictions vs. other top schools. If anything, it’s “that’s a good school, I like how they’re good at sports.”

And even the people that do care about this stuff like NU because they know, broadly, that our players take real classes and legitimately graduate from the university. That's it. Nobody knows or cares what our minimum SAT score is, nor will they know or care if we change it.
 
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AdamOnFirst

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And even the people that do care about this stuff like NU because they know, broadly, that our players take real classes and legitimately graduate from the university. That's it. Nobody knows or cares what our minimum SAT score is, nor will they know or care if we change it.
Almost all the other highly informed fans of other schools I talk to genuinely don't believe me when I say we have higher standards than places like Duke and Vandy, and if they do believe me they always pause and say something like "why," usually followed up with "aren't they tied or ahead of you in the school rankings anyway?"
 

Baz = Heisman

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Almost all the other highly informed fans of other schools I talk to genuinely don't believe me when I say we have higher standards than places like Duke and Vandy, and if they do believe me they always pause and say something like "why," usually followed up with "aren't they tied or ahead of you in the school rankings anyway?"
Ok? And you have an easy retort. Diego Pavia - Vandy. Zion, Kyrie, etc. - Duke. That gets the message across loud and clear and supports what you’re saying.
 

hdhntr1

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Ish to Roy Munson in Kingpin.

Well, my grandpa always taught me to bowl 15 frames. It's like I told you before, we Amish, we do everything half again as hard as you do. Ten frames.
Cause you had to to get the same scores and it took you 5 extra frames to do it?
 
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docrugby1

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You’re 100% correct on Braun. He’s in over his head and we’re going to keep slipping as the Fitz guys graduate out and have to be replaced with his terrible recruits.

HOWEVER, you’ve overly simplified Cignetti’s success in my opinion. One thing you’ve missed is IU’s investment in football. They paid their QB $4M in NIL. Their roster is paid nearly $20M. He’s an excellent coach, but his success is enabled by the talent he’s been able to procure. He wouldn’t have the same financial support here. Allegedly we paid our terrible QB 1/5th of what Mendoza got from IU.

I dont know what that last sentence means. I am simply stating that our peers (and I use that term lightly with Tulane) have passed us by. They've done it by investing in players and coaches, not stadiums filled with visiting fans.

We've been sold a bill of goods that facilities need to be world class. It's just not true..
Tulane Stadium is only a few years old and had similar design features to the NRF , in as much as the seating areas were more vertical than older stadiums . It did not have many luxury boxes, suites (4500) likes the NRF but the concourse beneath the stadium was large and filled with a wide variety of food and beverage choices. Capacity was about 30K but one side of the stadium did not have a second deck, although it appeared it could be added if ever needed . Cost in 2025 dollars was listed as $99 million
My 50 yard line seat bought through Tulane on the single deck side was about $75

I was finally contacted by NU ticket rep and I inquired about the cost of 4 seats similar to my old seats 35-40 yard line high, he informed me that they were "box seats" with access to a distant "lounge area". The box required a capital donation of over $200K plus the cost of 4 season tickets , whose cost I did not catch because I had fallen off my chair. He did say less expensive seats would be available towards the endzone, possibly in the upper deck, but are not yet on the market. Is this similar to what others have been told?
 

hdhntr1

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Tulane Stadium is only a few years old and had similar design features to the NRF , in as much as the seating areas were more vertical than older stadiums . It did not have many luxury boxes, suites (4500) likes the NRF but the concourse beneath the stadium was large and filled with a wide variety of food and beverage choices. Capacity was about 30K but one side of the stadium did not have a second deck, although it appeared it could be added if ever needed . Cost in 2025 dollars was listed as $99 million
My 50 yard line seat bought through Tulane on the single deck side was about $75

I was finally contacted by NU ticket rep and I inquired about the cost of 4 seats similar to my old seats 35-40 yard line high, he informed me that they were "box seats" with access to a distant "lounge area". The box required a capital donation of over $200K plus the cost of 4 season tickets , whose cost I did not catch because I had fallen off my chair. He did say less expensive seats would be available towards the endzone, possibly in the upper deck, but are not yet on the market. Is this similar to what others have been told?
That is a lot worse than anything I had heard which is really not much, At this point all I have heard of being sold were premium seats but the donation for those seats was supposedly $15K each and then something like $3700 each year each all inclusive. Then there was the next set at $5k donation and $5200 per year each. When I tried to find out what general seats between the 30s were going to be I got texted back that they did not know and probably wouldn't till sometime late Feb.but likely around $1500 each. This is turning out to be a real cluster....
 

JustGary

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Oct 7, 2025
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People razzing @EvanstonCat because IU is taking transfers, and who could tell if Cig would succeed here. What about Duke (Elko and now Diaz)? Vandy? Tulane? These three moribund programs were in our rear view mirror a decade ago and NU/Ryan decided to build Edifice Rex instead of investing in talent.

It comes down to coaching and talent, mostly at QB. Two people are the difference between mediocrity and excellence. So about 10M a year more than currently
Has everyone forgotten already that we were in the mist of a scandal 2-3 years ago? We were not going to get a ton of talent. We were not going to get a famous alum investing into NIL. We were not going to get a highly talented coach to leave a successful program to come to our school. If Braun didn’t pull out that 8-5 year, our program would be one sorry *** mess. But stop blaming the stadium as the reason we don’t have a national championship. We were not going to get the players Indiana got or the coach Indiana got two years ago.

Maybe it’s good that it is considered ancient history so that the coaches now have a chance to get better recruits.
 
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TheC

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Tulane Stadium is only a few years old and had similar design features to the NRF , in as much as the seating areas were more vertical than older stadiums . It did not have many luxury boxes, suites (4500) likes the NRF but the concourse beneath the stadium was large and filled with a wide variety of food and beverage choices. Capacity was about 30K but one side of the stadium did not have a second deck, although it appeared it could be added if ever needed . Cost in 2025 dollars was listed as $99 million
My 50 yard line seat bought through Tulane on the single deck side was about $75

I was finally contacted by NU ticket rep and I inquired about the cost of 4 seats similar to my old seats 35-40 yard line high, he informed me that they were "box seats" with access to a distant "lounge area". The box required a capital donation of over $200K plus the cost of 4 season tickets , whose cost I did not catch because I had fallen off my chair. He did say less expensive seats would be available towards the endzone, possibly in the upper deck, but are not yet on the market. Is this similar to what others have been told?
Good lord... forget about building a fan base with that crap. How does a recent alum who makes ok money, but is not rich build up a tradition of going to NU games? How do they start brining their family as they get older? Get ready for a raucous crowd full of corporate guests and opposing fans buying on the secondary markets.
 

Gocatsgo2003

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Tulane Stadium is only a few years old and had similar design features to the NRF , in as much as the seating areas were more vertical than older stadiums . It did not have many luxury boxes, suites (4500) likes the NRF but the concourse beneath the stadium was large and filled with a wide variety of food and beverage choices. Capacity was about 30K but one side of the stadium did not have a second deck, although it appeared it could be added if ever needed . Cost in 2025 dollars was listed as $99 million
My 50 yard line seat bought through Tulane on the single deck side was about $75

I was finally contacted by NU ticket rep and I inquired about the cost of 4 seats similar to my old seats 35-40 yard line high, he informed me that they were "box seats" with access to a distant "lounge area". The box required a capital donation of over $200K plus the cost of 4 season tickets , whose cost I did not catch because I had fallen off my chair. He did say less expensive seats would be available towards the endzone, possibly in the upper deck, but are not yet on the market. Is this similar to what others have been told?

I don’t know who you talked to, but the capital donation for those seats is not $200k. It’s just not. You were either misquoted or misunderstood.