Defense stinks right now and I don't really get it

[PhillyRU]

Adjusted defensive efficiency of 103.5 (104th nationally) through four games. For the program and for what this team wants to be, that's pretty awful.

Meanwhile, adjusted offensive efficiency of 110.8, which is 91st nationally, much better than I expected and honestly good enough for us to be genuinely competitive with Pike's usual standard of defense.

This feels like a team that should be able to defend pretty well. Ogbole isn't Cliff, obviously, but we're top 75 in block rate right now. There's a small sample size so far, and from the eye test, there are a lot of really difficult 3s being made. But it seemed like until so recently, Pike could just spawn a top 10, or at least top 30, defense from any roster.

 

[Degaz-RU]

I’m perplexed by this as well, but it’s pretty clear that the poor defense is primarily due to 3-pt defense, which is now at 33%. We’ve given up 32 threes, an average of 8 per game.

I would imagine both stats are pretty poor considering we’ve played four teams hovering around 300 in KenPom.

I also think we struggle with rotations at times with all of the new players.

 

[Mholinko]

Defense while not entirely based on talent certainly is easier to teach when you have talented guys that want to also defend

physically we’re not imposing defensively and if the guys you brought in don’t actually want to defend or value it or most importantly have the IQ for it it’s a problem

 

[Rutgers25]

Defense while not entirely based on talent certainly is easier to teach when you have talented guys that want to also defend

physically we’re not imposing defensively and if the guys you brought in don’t actually want to defend or value it or most importantly have the IQ for it it’s a problem

Pike’s D is much more team D orientated vs one on one lock down. If you don’t have the rotations down to a science then his defense is toast vs teams that move the ball reasonably well and aren’t shy about hoisting 3s.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

The good news at least is we’re doing certain things well, or at least better than others, on D. We were +10 again on rebounding margin. Also defended well from 2 most of the game in the paint, though we have some lapses. Overall - those things seem improved (there was nowhere to go but up).

3 point D isn’t good, but I’m not as bothered by that as some other things. We’re not forcing enough turnovers or even threatening to. That needs to get better.

 

[Jerseylegends]

2 small guards isn't the ideal defensive back court. But let's see how it plays out

 

[Mholinko]

Pike’s D is much more team D orientated vs one on one lock down. If you don’t have the rotations down to a science then his defense is toast vs teams that move the ball reasonably well and aren’t shy about hoisting 3s.

That’s where the part of willingness and want and IQ are important like I said

 

[Shelby65]

2 small guards isn't the ideal defensive back court. But let's see how it plays out.

Davis seems to get burned much more than Francis. Three pointers over him and drives right past him.

 

[seansherm]

Davis seems to get burned much more than Francis. Three pointers over him and drives right past him.

Couldn't disagree more. Francis still hasnt found a man he can stay in front of, hes poor defensively. Yes, JMike, gets beat every so often off the dribble, happens, hes usually on the other teams best guard.

Grant is still poor defensively. Last night we couldn't really play EO much, too much time on the perimeter, was smart of Pike to go Fall and Dortch more. Badalau isn't great defensively either, he tries. Buchannon has zero confidence right now. Pike still has some teaching to do on the defensive end.

 

[Shelby65]

Couldn't disagree more. Francis still hasnt found a man he can stay in front of, hes poor defensively. Yes, JMike, gets beat every so often off the dribble, happens, hes usually on the other teams best guard.

Grant is still poor defensively. Last night we couldn't really play EO much, too much time on the perimeter, was smart of Pike to go Fall and Dortch more. Badalau isn't great defensively either, he tries. Buchannon has zero confidence right now. Pike still has some teaching to do on the defensive end.

Yes, Davis does draw the other team’s better scorer but the point remains, he does get beat more. It’s not this topic, but Francis is a much better offensive player.

 

[NBKnight]

That’s where the part of willingness and want and IQ are important like I said

Defensive rotations are a learned skill, not IQ.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Couldn't disagree more. Francis still hasnt found a man he can stay in front of, hes poor defensively. Yes, JMike, gets beat every so often off the dribble, happens, hes usually on the other teams best guard.

Grant is still poor defensively. Last night we couldn't really play EO much, too much time on the perimeter, was smart of Pike to go Fall and Dortch more. Badalau isn't great defensively either, he tries. Buchannon has zero confidence right now. Pike still has some teaching to do on the defensive end.

Agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t think blanket classification of Francis as a “poor” defender is fair. He’s way better overall so far than I expected him to be. In the least, I’ve seen enough to conclude that he’s a MUCH better all around defender than either Jordan (in our scheme - not a zone) or Tyson against midmajor competition (apples to apples). You right, he does get beat sometimes in one on one coverage but has shown the quickness to recover very well provided the help defender does his job. The concern of course is - will he be able to recover enough to alter shots in the same way when he’s initially beat by bigger players with more length. That remains a massive question mark for conference play.

 

[biochemist001]

Adjusted defensive efficiency of 103.5 (104th nationally) through four games. For the program and for what this team wants to be, that's pretty awful.

Meanwhile, adjusted offensive efficiency of 110.8, which is 91st nationally, much better than I expected and honestly good enough for us to be genuinely competitive with Pike's usual standard of defense.

This feels like a team that should be able to defend pretty well. Ogbole isn't Cliff, obviously, but we're top 75 in block rate right now. There's a small sample size so far, and from the eye test, there are a lot of really difficult 3s being made. But it seemed like until so recently, Pike could just spawn a top 10, or at least top 30, defense from any roster.

There are also a lot of wide open 3s being made. The team is also still vulnerable to backdoor cuts for easy layups.

 

[Mholinko]

Defensive rotations are a learned skill, not IQ.

Which require willingness and some general basketball sense to learn and retain

Caleb geo Ron Paul etc were smarter basketball players than the se guys

 

[seansherm]

Yes, Davis does draw the other team’s better scorer but the point remains, he does get beat more. It’s not this topic, but Francis is a much better offensive player.

Francis is a more dynamic offensive player and one that looks for offense more. I'm interested to see how that translates against real competition. I know what JMike will bring. We need both as they are really the only two ball handlers until Lino grows into things, not sure I like them both on the court together come real comp, but it is what it is.

 

[seansherm]

Agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t think blanket classification of Francis as a “poor” defender is fair. He’s way better overall so far than I expected him to be. In the least, I’ve seen enough to conclude that he’s a MUCH better all around defender than either Jordan (in our scheme - not a zone) or Tyson against midmajor competition (apples to apples). You right, he does get beat sometimes in one on one coverage but has shown the quickness to recover very well provided the help defender does his job. The concern of course is - will he be able to recover enough to alter shots in the same way when he’s initially beat by bigger players with more length. That remains a massive question mark for conference play.

We'll have to see, Tyson was basically on one leg early season and Jordan did certain things OK. If Tariq had their size, we'd have something! I dont want to seem like I'm anti Tariq as he's been better than I expected too, but we knew he could hold his own against this level of comp. He's more of a team player than his past stats appeared.

 

[seansherm]

There are also a lot of wide open 3s being made. The team is also still vulnerable to backdoor cuts for easy layups.

Pikes switching, helping D has always given up wide open 3's and we almost always lose when teams are hitting them at a high rate.

 

[goru7]

2 small guards isn't the ideal defensive back court. But let's see how it plays out

Pike seems to realize that and 2games ago when Francis wasn’t playing well he sat him almost the last 15 minutes of the Lehigh game. He played Badalau or Buchanan at the 2 with Davis , Grant and Ogbole or Dorsch.
Tonight Francis was making more shots and scoring so he lived with the small guards. He will hopefully adjust and play either Badalau, Zrno or Buchanan at guard.

 

[seansherm]

Pike seems to realize that and 2games ago when Francis wasn’t playing well he sat him almost the last 15 minutes of the Lehigh game. He played Badalau or Buchanan at the 2 with Davis , Grant and Ogbole or Dorsch.
Tonight Francis was making more shots and scoring so he lived with the small guards. He will hopefully adjust and play either Badalau, Zrno or Buchanan at guard.

Badalou too slow for guard. Zrno really kind of lost defensively still. Until Buchannon gets his confidence back and defense clicks for Zrno we are going to see more Francis than we expected.

 

[Shelby65]

Shelby thinks Buchanan should start in place of Davis as a big off guard. Two 5’10” starting guards in the big10 games would be terrible. I believe Buchanan has played with just one of them on the court so that is a feasible grouping.

But, Pike’s likely loyalty to Davis would prevent it.

 

[Colonel HR]

Which require willingness and some general basketball sense to learn and retain

Caleb geo Ron Paul etc were smarter basketball players than the se guys

Ron Paul was definitely smarter.

 

[seansherm]

Shelby thinks Buchanan should start in place of Davis as a big off guard. Two 5’10” starting guards in the big10 games would be terrible. I believe Buchanan has played with just one of them on the court so that is a feasible grouping.

But, Pike’s likely loyalty to Davis would prevent it.

Except for Shelby being wrong on which guard should go to the bench, I agree. Francis off the bench would A. Bring some offensive ability in and B. Give Francis a chance of using his speed w fresh legs against hopefully someone slightly more tired at spots.

 

[LeapinLou]

Grant is still poor defensively.

Maybe, but in his case, you have to live with it. We need his offense and rebounding. He needs to be on the floor as much as his body can stand.

 

[goru7]

Maybe, but in his case, you have to live with it. We need his offense and rebounding. He needs to be on the floor as much as his body can stand.

Pike’s substitution pattern for Dylan is horrendous . He is first or second sub out after the first timeout. He subs him for Buchanan when they should both be on the floor together. If Dylan is going to have an explosive night from the jump , he needs to be out there and Pike’s subbing is doing more to stop him than the defense . He does it again in the second half. He is not in foul trouble and of all the players , he can withstand 35-36 minutes a night .,.We will be competitive as long as Dylan has a great night every night out and like you said “ he needs to be on the floor as much as his body can stand “

 

[lion1983]

Shelby thinks Buchanan should start in place of Davis as a big off guard. Two 5’10” starting guards in the big10 games would be terrible. I believe Buchanan has played with just one of them on the court so that is a feasible grouping.

But, Pike’s likely loyalty to Davis would prevent it.

First, who is this 3rd person Shelby? Is he different than Shelby65?

Second, Davis is not 5'10", but a legit 6'2". So, yet again you simply have the facts wrong.

That said, Davis can be shot over by taller guards, so the concept is not inaccurate.

Third, Pikiell is "loyal" to Davis because Davis is RU's best PG by a wide margin - though he actually did not have a great game against American (3 turnovers, unusual for him). FYI, through 4 games, Davis is averaging 10.5 ppg on 43% FG, 40% 3-point FG, 50% eFG%, 74% FT, 3.8 reb/g 3 ***/g, 1.5 TO/g (2:1 ***-TO ratio).

 

[goru7]

Badalou too slow for guard. Zrno really kind of lost defensively still. Until Buchannon gets his confidence back and defense clicks for Zrno we are going to see more Francis than we expected.

Badalau is not too slow for guard . The position less basketball whether he is a 2 or a 3 doesn’t matter. But you have to try and get him more looks. Same as Zrno.
Buchanan is too iso right now and what’s worse is Pike and the staff seem to be allowing it or encouraging him going at guys and not stopping even when he is well guarded and when he dribbles too much. He has to pass more and be more selective driving.

 

[seansherm]

Badalau is not too slow for guard . The position less basketball whether he is a 2 or a 3 doesn’t matter. But you have to try and get him more looks. Same as Zrno.
Buchanan is too iso right now and what’s worse is Pike and the staff seem to be allowing it or encouraging him going at guys and not stopping even when he is well guarded and when he dribbles too much. He has to pass more and be more selective driving.

Not only is he too slow for a guard, hes too slow for a wing. Stretch 4 in college. Getting them looks I agree with, however we know thats not the offenses way.

Buchannon is a little focused on his shot, I think because hes trying to make an impact off the bench, but hes 2nd on the team in asst %. He's moving the ball when its prudent.

 

[Shelby65]

Not only is he too slow for a guard, hes too slow for a wing. Stretch 4 in college. Getting them looks I agree with, however we know thats not the offenses way.

Buchannon is a little focused on his shot, I think because hes trying to make an impact off the bench, but hes 2nd on the team in asst %. He's moving the ball when it’s prudent.

Davis 6’2” LOL. Absurd Take Of the Week. He’s got at most 1 inch on Francis. JWill was 6’3” or 6’4” and he had half a foot on Davis or more. One of us is clueless and it ain’t Shelby. Anyhow, re: above commentary. Badalau isn’t any slower than Boiler-Up Loyer. He’s also Grant’s height so his measurables are fine.

 

[PhillyRU]

Which require willingness and some general basketball sense to learn and retain

Caleb geo Ron Paul etc were smarter basketball players than the se guys

I don't really disagree, but Pike's second season, where the most common lineup was Sanders, Geo, Issa Thiam, sophomore Eugene Omoruyi and Shaq Doorson, ranked 28th in defensive efficiency. I don't buy that team having significantly greater basketball sense/smarts than the current rotation.

 

[BillyC80]

I was gonna compare Loyer to Zrno, to make a case that Zrno needs at least 10 minutes per game.

Loyer got tons of minutes based primarily on his ability to knock down threes, as far as I could tell. He may have had a higher motor than Zrno, but I didn’t think he could defend very well.

 

[seansherm]

Davis 6’2” LOL. Absurd Take Of the Week. He’s got at most 1 inch on Francis. JWill was 6’3” or 6’4” and he had half a foot on Davis or more. One of us is clueless and it ain’t Shelby. Anyhow, re: above commentary. Badalau isn’t any slower than Boiler-Up Loyer. He’s also Grant’s height so his measurables are fine.

Uh, I never mentioned Davis' height, so not sure what Shelby is blathering about.
I promise you Loyer is faster than Badalau. Yes, he's fine for a stretch 4 in college. Unfortunately he now has 1 rebound in three straight games against smaller teams, which means he can't get in position quick enough yet.

 

[seansherm]

I was gonna compare Loyer to Zrno, to make a case that Zrno needs at least 10 minutes per game.

Loyer got tons of minutes based primarily on his ability to knock down threes, as far as I could tell. He may have had a higher motor than Zrno, but I didn’t think he could defend very well.

He had a lot more talent around him to let him go through those pains. We tried w Griffiths the same year I believe.
Zrno has to up his D, I'd like to see him get some extended run.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I’m perplexed by this as well, but it’s pretty clear that the poor defense is primarily due to 3-pt defense, which is now at 33%. We’ve given up 32 threes, an average of 8 per game.

I would imagine both stats are pretty poor considering we’ve played four teams hovering around 300 in KenPom.

I also think we struggle with rotations at times with all of the new players.

Poor 3 point defense doesn’t have the same correlation to opponent level as some of the other metrics on defense. Chol and PJ are far less talented than a top BIG wing but can nail down open shots at a similar rate if left wide open.

Adjusted defensive efficiency of 103.5 (104th nationally) through four games. For the program and for what this team wants to be, that's pretty awful.

Meanwhile, adjusted offensive efficiency of 110.8, which is 91st nationally, much better than I expected and honestly good enough for us to be genuinely competitive with Pike's usual standard of defense.

This feels like a team that should be able to defend pretty well. Ogbole isn't Cliff, obviously, but we're top 75 in block rate right now. There's a small sample size so far, and from the eye test, there are a lot of really difficult 3s being made. But it seemed like until so recently, Pike could just spawn a top 10, or at least top 30, defense from any roster

Yeah - what’s weird about it for me is I’m much more worried about how we’ll hold up on the defensive metrics where we’re doing statistically well right now (like rebounding and paint defense) than the ones hurting our efficiency numbers.

Even with zero defense, even the best shooting teams are not going to hit more than 40ish percent. Three point D isn’t a metric that’s going to get materially worse than it already has been the last 3 games for this reason. It also seems to me that when Pike wanted / needed to, he adjusted the schemes to tighten things up on the perimeter. His strategy has clearly been to prioritize locking up the paint and clearing the glass.

We started the games daring Maine, American and Lehigh to fire away early. It worked early against Maine as they missed and we scored a ton pushing pace off the rebounds to jump out to the 22-6 lead. Then that deep bench kid comes in with 10 mins left in the half and they suddenly start nailing a bunch to tighten the gap (4-5 lights out before halftime). We adjusted in half two. Maine only made 2 second half threes until the final minute once we had built an 18 point lead and the game was over.

Lehigh and American hit their open looks and combined for 10 made 3s in the first 10 minutes of their respective games to test us early. But once again - Pike did adjust. Those teams combined to make 21 threes against us, but remember - both of those teams nailed 2 threes in the final two minutes after we had built a comfortable 13 point lead. Granted we need to do a better job closing out the end of wins on D because we won’t always hit FTs but heck - we don’t expect to be in that situation much in conference play so it’s not really worth worrying about it. From the 10 min mark of the first half to the 2 min mark in the second half of those games we gave up only 7 combined threes (in 56 minutes). I guess my point is we’ve played meaningful stretches where we’ve locked down the perimeter.

The big question for me is whether or not we can lock down the paint servicably and hold our own rebounding when the competition level steps up. To this point, we do look substantially better at these things against cupcakes than last years team despite what the overall numbers say on D eff.

 

[BillyC80]

Poor 3 point defense doesn’t have the same correlation to opponent level as some of the other metrics on defense. Chol and PJ are far less talented than a top BIG wing but can nail down open shots at a similar rate if left wide open.


Yeah - what’s weird about it for me is I’m much more worried about how we’ll hold up on the defensive metrics where we’re doing statistically well right now (like rebounding and paint defense) than the ones hurting our efficiency numbers.

Even with zero defense, even the best shooting teams are not going to hit more than 40ish percent. Three point D isn’t a metric that’s going to get materially worse than it already has been the last 3 games for this reason. It also seems to me that when Pike wanted / needed to, he adjusted the schemes to tighten things up on the perimeter. His strategy has clearly been to prioritize locking up the paint and clearing the glass.

We started the games daring Maine, American and Lehigh to fire away early. It worked early against Maine as they missed and we scored a ton pushing pace off the rebounds to jump out to the 22-6 lead. Then that deep bench kid comes in with 10 mins left in the half and they suddenly start nailing a bunch to tighten the gap (4-5 lights out before halftime). We adjusted in half two. Maine only made 2 second half threes until the final minute once we had built an 18 point lead and the game was over.

Lehigh and American hit their open looks and combined for 10 made 3s in the first 10 minutes of their respective games to test us early. But once again - Pike did adjust. Those teams combined to make 21 threes against us, but remember - both of those teams nailed 2 threes in the final two minutes after we had built a comfortable 13 point lead. Granted we need to do a better job closing out the end of wins on D because we won’t always hit FTs but heck - we don’t expect to be in that situation much in conference play so it’s not really worth worrying about it. From the 10 min mark of the first half to the 2 min mark in the second half of those games we gave up only 7 combined threes (in 56 minutes). I guess my point is we’ve played meaningful stretches where we’ve locked down the perimeter.

The big question for me is whether or not we can lock down the paint servicably and hold our own rebounding when the competition level steps up. To this point, we do look substantially better at these things against cupcakes than last years team despite what the overall numbers say on D eff.

To your point about threes, GW hit an unconscious 15-28 from three against American, after going 2-20 against Maine. That’s a crazy swing between games, and both of those performances are likely outliers (one bad, one good).

 

[Bob Chaewsky_rivals]

Badalau is not too slow for guard . The position less basketball whether he is a 2 or a 3 doesn’t matter. But you have to try and get him more looks. Same as Zrno.
Buchanan is too iso right now and what’s worse is Pike and the staff seem to be allowing it or encouraging him going at guys and not stopping even when he is well guarded and when he dribbles too much. He has to pass more and be more selective driving.

Pike get people looks? That's a good one.

 

[Bob Chaewsky_rivals]

I was gonna compare Loyer to Zrno, to make a case that Zrno needs at least 10 minutes per game.

Loyer got tons of minutes based primarily on his ability to knock down threes, as far as I could tell. He may have had a higher motor than Zrno, but I didn’t think he could defend very well.

I don't think they are in the same league.

 

[Shelby65]

Uh, I never mentioned Davis' height, so not sure what Shelby is blathering about.
I promise you Loyer is faster than Badalau. Yes, he's fine for a stretch 4 in college. Unfortunately he now has 1 rebound in three straight games against smaller teams, which means he can't get in position quick enough yet.

Shelby refers to Lion’s view above that Davis “is a legit 6’2”. Davis would need epic platform shoes to stand that tall.

Badalau’s rebound numbers are due to playing perimeter D in his matchups. That’s not an issue. Stick Grant out there and he won’t get rebounds either.

 

[Shelby65]

Except for Shelby being wrong on which guard should go to the bench, I agree. Francis off the bench would A. Bring some offensive ability in and B. Give Francis a chance of using his speed w fresh legs against hopefully someone slightly more tired at spots.

Ok, Shelby thinks that’s fair. The Microwave subbing in for Dumars or Thomas. Either way, they shouldn’t often be on the court together much.

 

[BillyC80]

I don't think they are in the same league.

Based on what? As a freshman, Loyer shot 37% from the field including 33% from the arc, and played over 30 minutes per game alongside Zak Edey and Braden Smith.

You would have to put Zrno on that team and give him 30 minutes per game before you could say they’re not in the same league. And both are flawed defensively.

About the only thing you can say is that Zrno is much older as a freshman than Loyer was, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t be just as effective over a 4 year college career, given the same minutes and surrounding players.

 

[goru7]

Pike has to either make it a priority pre game or make a quick adjustment in game if the opposition is hitting too many threes. He locked down American who hit 9 in the first half and1 for most of the second half until the second banked in 3 at the end. Pike had to cut it off at 3 before it got to 9 as that was the only way they were staying in the game. They had 27 of their 33 points in the first half from 3 and outscored us 27-6 from there. It took a really good last 10 minutes to get it even at halftime. No need to give these lesser teams hope.